ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
yes mym mums dog is like this runs off wont come back
Cannot ever let dog off lead.
- Thread starter tessybear
- Start date
yes mym mums dog is like this runs off wont come back
CorvusCorax
Deary me...
I did, and I also say you should ask the question and hopefully get an answer from someone who actually uses one *(NikkiJ, any chance??!!
), because I don't, I would say again that the answer is both, depending on who is using it and why - a person with a deaf dog in training would probably use one every day until the link is made with a hand signal, a person who wants to use it for livestock training would say they would only want to use it once.Different people use them on different dogs for different reasons.
My dog wears a large link choke chain every day, because it's waterproof, mudproof, seawater-proof and adjustable and I can click the lead onto any link rather than fumbling for one D-ring, someone else might use one only once or twice as a training aid to get it to heel/control it.
eatmyshorts
Well-Known Member
Allow me Alec. Personally, & as described, i've used an e-collar on a low shock setting (it has 100 levels, i used level 17) when one of my GSP's wasn't responding to me at any distance. It was a last resort, & i tried it on vibrate first, which had no effect. I tested the level on my husband first to make sure it wasn't too high
. i also used it in an enclosed area first (my garden) to ensure she wasn't going to take fright & bolt when i first activated it. I joked that it just allowed me to kick her butt & pay attention from a distance! I think she wore it on perhaps 3 or 4 walks & had the shock button pressed maybe about the same amount of times - that's all she needed. I don't believe in any training methods which are either all carrot or all stick, so to speak, so when she recalled, she was also always rewarded with a treat or a play with a tennis ball.My dogs prey drive is quite high but i normally manage to curb it - i had my lurcher, my staffie X & my other GSP in the woods one day when a deer jumped out literally 20ft in front of us. All three dogs saw it, but none of them gave chase as i yelled a very firm Leave It command. The wayward GSP wasn't with us at that point & as yet hasn't had such a test, but i'm quite confident she'd pass these days too.
Alec Swan
...
I'm sorry, but you haven't answered my question. You've defended the use of such a tool, which is why I asked you the question. You've said that I should ask those who actually use one, which would imply that you don't. Why would you defend the use of a tool when you yourself don't use one?
I'll accept that in the most extreme of cases, and in the hands of those who I doubt are on here, there may be a limited excuse. There will be no place for such a barbaric tool in the hands of those who know what they're doing.
I'm sorry, but that's the truth.
Alec.
ETS. If you'd rather continue this by PM, that's fine with me. a.
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CorvusCorax
Deary me...
No, let's keep it on here, it's an interesting discussion.
I cannot answer a question about the use of a tool I don't use - I've been very open about the fact that I DON'T use one (I think about three times on this thread alone) and that these are just my opinions. I don't use one because I don't feel that I need to use one and I would not be confident about my own timing.
I'm not 'defending' or indeed promoting them, I'm writing about what I know about them. I have spoken with people who have used them for a variety of reasons and I have listened and learned a lot from them.
There is no barbarism in my eyes in the way that they are being used by the people I have spoken to (NOT - Bad dog - ZAP), I do not agree that something that beeps or vibrates is barbaric.
I'll 'defend' the right of those who want to use a pelham or spurs or a dressage whip - I don't even have a horse!
At the end of the day, I'm just a person with a dog, learning stuff all the time the same as the rest of us
Alec Swan
...
No, let's keep it on here, it's an interesting discussion.
I cannot answer a question about the use of a tool I don't use - I've been very open about the fact that I DON'T use one (I think about three times on this thread alone) and that these are just my opinions.
OK, so you've never used one.
I'm not 'defending' or indeed promoting them, I'm writing about what I know about them. I have spoken with people who have used them for a variety of reasons and I have listened and learned a lot from them.
I too have listened to others, and like you, I've learned. We seem to have looked at different pictures.
......., I do not agree that something that beeps or vibrates is barbaric.
I agree with you, but then wonder why they have a MAX setting. I'll also point out that you manage to train a dog, without such a device, as I and MOST others do.
I'll 'defend' the right of those who want to use a pelham or spurs or a dressage whip - I don't even have a horse!
A dog is generally voice controlled. A horse is controlled with the riders hands and legs and seat. They are two, though parallel, separate disciplines.
At the end of the day, I'm just a person with a dog, learning stuff all the time the same as the rest of us
As you say, as the rest of us do, and from my limited experience, there are those training aids which should have no place with the competent dog trainer.
There-yer-go, we'll agree to disagree.
Alec.
CorvusCorax
Deary me...
Okie dokes, I think it's true that we humans all learn differently and see different pictures, a bit like our dogs!
Goodnight Mr Swann
Goodnight Mr Swann
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
I found this.... Sorry it's a bit long!
The Electric Collar
Many successful trainers will tell you that "punishment" needs to be administered as close as possible to the moment the "crime" is committed. My philosophy of dog training doesn't assume dogs commit "crimes" any more than they know that they have "done wrong" or need "punishment".
Dogs know nothing about human morals. Dogs follow their natural predatory instincts and these are moulded in training to suit our human purposes. That apart, the electric collar seems a most wonderful instrument because you can administer an electric shock to the dog at a considerable distance at "the right moment". At least, that's what is says in the glossy brochures.
Those who are in favour of the electric collar tell me I don't understand. For the record, I was the first person to import one into Scotland back in 1972. I have owned at least four different makes since and several different models. I live in sheep and deer country and we used to kill 1,200 mountain hares in two days when hares were considered vermin and had to be controlled. Yet I now find I have no need of an electric collar. How's that?
Mr Robert Wehle of the famous Elhew pointer kennel in the USA also condemns their use. Those who use electric collars have very little knowledge of canine psychology or they are professionals who train dogs which are totally screwed up mentally anyway.
I have just had an email from a lady in the USA who hunts a pack of hounds. She asks why it is that gundog owners need an e-collar to control one dog when she can control a pack of 50 hounds without one! Good question! Have a look at my videos and see what I achieve without electric collars. I would not bother housing and feeding such an ill bred brute that required such methods to train it! So why are they in such general use and so widely recommended?
The Official view on the use of electric collars for dog training in the UK
Several police officers recently received a three year prison sentence in the UK for beating and abusing their dogs. With reference to this, here is an extract from Hansard "House of Commons written answers for 3rd November 1999" (that is, a report from our British Parliament).
Electric Shock Dog Collar
Mr. Rendel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the Prison Service still has an electric shock dog collar in its possession; and how many times such a collar has been used since November 1998. [97109]
Mr. Boateng: The Prison Service is no longer in possession of an electric shock dog collar. Records held at the National Dog Training Centre indicate that the collar was used seven times on six dogs between March 1993 and July 1995. The electric collar was to be used only when authorised by the head of the National Dog Training Centre. It was used on adult dogs as part of a training course or remedial training and only as a last resort, when other methods of correcting a dog in control-related exercises had failed. The collar has not been used since 6 July 1995. On 14 April 1999, an amendment was made to Prison Service orders. It instructed that electric collars were not to be used, under any circumstances, on Prison Service dogs during training.
Mr. Rendel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many police forces have an electric shock dog collar; and how many times such a device has been used since July 1998. [97110]
Mr. Charles Clarke: Of the 43 police forces in England and Wales, 20 possess electric shock dog collars for use in training. The device has been used by eight forces on a total of 37 occasions since July 1998. I understand that the relevant committee of the Association of Chief Police Officers is to review the use of this item.
Here are a few facts....
Fact 1: The electric collar is a small tin box containing electronic components which is strapped to the dog's neck. A hand held transmitter sends a pulse which causes the collar to give an electric shock to the dog. These instruments probably cost a few pounds sterling (a few dollars) to make yet sell for a starting price at least twenty times that. So the manufacturers have huge profits out of which to pay for widespread promotions, advertising, seminars, free videos, etc.
Hunting and dog magazines profit from the advertising revenue these companies generate so most do not discourage their use and the irresponsible publications won't even allow reasoned debate in case it cuts advertising income.
Fact 2: Scientific studies shown that harsh training methods usually have side effects which may not surface for years and then do so usually in some unpredictable way. Use an electric collar and you will be creating more problems long term and possibly ruining the dog short term. The better dogs are usually the quickest spoilt.
Fact 3: The mere act of strapping an electric collar onto your dog's neck changes the environment in which the dog is being trained. The collar is very noticeable to the dog. The whole point of using any corrective device (e.g. the check cord) is that the dog should not be aware that there is anything unusual going on. Very soon you will find that your dog won't work as you wish unless he is wearing the collar. This regular use leads to the collar contacts setting up an irritation of the skin which can lead to infection. How do I know this? Read above: I have veterinary training and personal experience of their use!
Fact 4: The collars are unreliable. Although the electronics has improved dramatically, there are other factors involved. A dog's coat is a great insulator and the probes need to be up tight against the neck to be sure of making a good contact every time. You think your dog won't notice this? Again, you are changing that environmental factor.
Fact 5: You won't know the effect of an electric shock to your dog until it's too late because you simply cannot predict that reaction. Guess wrong and you have created problems in the training program most won't need or possibly caused irreversible trauma in your dog. How is it we never read about these dogs? They undoubtedly exist.
Fact 6: None of the official dog training organisations (e.g. police, RAF, sniffer dogs, rescue dogs, guide dogs for the blind, hearing dogs for the deaf, the vast majority of shepherds, hunt kennels, etc.) find they need to use electric collars. Corporal punishment was abandoned in schools long ago in civilised countries -- because it doesn't work!
Occasionally I get emails from American trainers who tell me I still don't know what I am talking about. If what you say is correct, please take it up with Mr Robert Wehle of Elhew pointers who doesn't appear to approve of electric collars any more than I do. Mr Wehle has unprecedented experience of breeding and training bird dogs in your native land so please don't bother me.
Do I need to go on? If a dog cannot be trained humanely, there is either something wrong with the trainer and/or his methods -- or something seriously wrong with the dog's breeding. In either case, the solution is clear. But sadly there will always be some who are so low on the human social hierarchy that they need something small and defenceless like a dog to dominate to keep themselves off the bottom of the heap!
The Electric Collar
Many successful trainers will tell you that "punishment" needs to be administered as close as possible to the moment the "crime" is committed. My philosophy of dog training doesn't assume dogs commit "crimes" any more than they know that they have "done wrong" or need "punishment".
Dogs know nothing about human morals. Dogs follow their natural predatory instincts and these are moulded in training to suit our human purposes. That apart, the electric collar seems a most wonderful instrument because you can administer an electric shock to the dog at a considerable distance at "the right moment". At least, that's what is says in the glossy brochures.
Those who are in favour of the electric collar tell me I don't understand. For the record, I was the first person to import one into Scotland back in 1972. I have owned at least four different makes since and several different models. I live in sheep and deer country and we used to kill 1,200 mountain hares in two days when hares were considered vermin and had to be controlled. Yet I now find I have no need of an electric collar. How's that?
Mr Robert Wehle of the famous Elhew pointer kennel in the USA also condemns their use. Those who use electric collars have very little knowledge of canine psychology or they are professionals who train dogs which are totally screwed up mentally anyway.
I have just had an email from a lady in the USA who hunts a pack of hounds. She asks why it is that gundog owners need an e-collar to control one dog when she can control a pack of 50 hounds without one! Good question! Have a look at my videos and see what I achieve without electric collars. I would not bother housing and feeding such an ill bred brute that required such methods to train it! So why are they in such general use and so widely recommended?
The Official view on the use of electric collars for dog training in the UK
Several police officers recently received a three year prison sentence in the UK for beating and abusing their dogs. With reference to this, here is an extract from Hansard "House of Commons written answers for 3rd November 1999" (that is, a report from our British Parliament).
Electric Shock Dog Collar
Mr. Rendel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the Prison Service still has an electric shock dog collar in its possession; and how many times such a collar has been used since November 1998. [97109]
Mr. Boateng: The Prison Service is no longer in possession of an electric shock dog collar. Records held at the National Dog Training Centre indicate that the collar was used seven times on six dogs between March 1993 and July 1995. The electric collar was to be used only when authorised by the head of the National Dog Training Centre. It was used on adult dogs as part of a training course or remedial training and only as a last resort, when other methods of correcting a dog in control-related exercises had failed. The collar has not been used since 6 July 1995. On 14 April 1999, an amendment was made to Prison Service orders. It instructed that electric collars were not to be used, under any circumstances, on Prison Service dogs during training.
Mr. Rendel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many police forces have an electric shock dog collar; and how many times such a device has been used since July 1998. [97110]
Mr. Charles Clarke: Of the 43 police forces in England and Wales, 20 possess electric shock dog collars for use in training. The device has been used by eight forces on a total of 37 occasions since July 1998. I understand that the relevant committee of the Association of Chief Police Officers is to review the use of this item.
Here are a few facts....
Fact 1: The electric collar is a small tin box containing electronic components which is strapped to the dog's neck. A hand held transmitter sends a pulse which causes the collar to give an electric shock to the dog. These instruments probably cost a few pounds sterling (a few dollars) to make yet sell for a starting price at least twenty times that. So the manufacturers have huge profits out of which to pay for widespread promotions, advertising, seminars, free videos, etc.
Hunting and dog magazines profit from the advertising revenue these companies generate so most do not discourage their use and the irresponsible publications won't even allow reasoned debate in case it cuts advertising income.
Fact 2: Scientific studies shown that harsh training methods usually have side effects which may not surface for years and then do so usually in some unpredictable way. Use an electric collar and you will be creating more problems long term and possibly ruining the dog short term. The better dogs are usually the quickest spoilt.
Fact 3: The mere act of strapping an electric collar onto your dog's neck changes the environment in which the dog is being trained. The collar is very noticeable to the dog. The whole point of using any corrective device (e.g. the check cord) is that the dog should not be aware that there is anything unusual going on. Very soon you will find that your dog won't work as you wish unless he is wearing the collar. This regular use leads to the collar contacts setting up an irritation of the skin which can lead to infection. How do I know this? Read above: I have veterinary training and personal experience of their use!
Fact 4: The collars are unreliable. Although the electronics has improved dramatically, there are other factors involved. A dog's coat is a great insulator and the probes need to be up tight against the neck to be sure of making a good contact every time. You think your dog won't notice this? Again, you are changing that environmental factor.
Fact 5: You won't know the effect of an electric shock to your dog until it's too late because you simply cannot predict that reaction. Guess wrong and you have created problems in the training program most won't need or possibly caused irreversible trauma in your dog. How is it we never read about these dogs? They undoubtedly exist.
Fact 6: None of the official dog training organisations (e.g. police, RAF, sniffer dogs, rescue dogs, guide dogs for the blind, hearing dogs for the deaf, the vast majority of shepherds, hunt kennels, etc.) find they need to use electric collars. Corporal punishment was abandoned in schools long ago in civilised countries -- because it doesn't work!
Occasionally I get emails from American trainers who tell me I still don't know what I am talking about. If what you say is correct, please take it up with Mr Robert Wehle of Elhew pointers who doesn't appear to approve of electric collars any more than I do. Mr Wehle has unprecedented experience of breeding and training bird dogs in your native land so please don't bother me.
Do I need to go on? If a dog cannot be trained humanely, there is either something wrong with the trainer and/or his methods -- or something seriously wrong with the dog's breeding. In either case, the solution is clear. But sadly there will always be some who are so low on the human social hierarchy that they need something small and defenceless like a dog to dominate to keep themselves off the bottom of the heap!
Nikki J
Well-Known Member
I know -- it would be the very worst thing you could do quite simply because the dog wearing the collar would think that the other dog was inflicting the discomfort. Once a dog is in full fight mode, the red mist descends and you as the handler have blown it by not using the e collar if necessary to ensure that your dog is fully under control. The e collar is very much a prevention with a capital P, and a cure with a small c. If you are using it correctly, you should very quickly get to the stage when you will rarely have to give your dog a correction. You have to stick to the use of the same tone and word to get the dog to come ... we quite simply say "Ben ... COME!" ... and instantly he will turn and come back to you ... whatever he may be doing. The dog quickly has this embedded in his brain, and as I say we very rarely have had to enforce the e collar on our boy Ben after the initial session.
Nikki J
Well-Known Member
Why? I might counter to your unreasonable statement and say "all young children should be kept on walking reins in public places at all times".
Nikki J
Well-Known Member
There's nothing quite like watching him enjoy having a run around and knowing hes safe and all the local sheep are safe too - the other day a train driver decided to honk his big old train horn - never seen my dog jump so high and run behind my legs like that ever lol
Aaah!! Poor thing!! He must have been petrified!!
Nikki J
Well-Known Member
That's a bit of an aggressive question without learning some of the FACTS first isn't it??!
When we first rescued Ben, we had no idea. We already had another dog, a large entire male mally cross, and to start with there was a bit of tension between the 2 dogs - Ben is castrated - and although they had several quite severe scraps between the 2 of them, Ben was fine with other dogs on and off lead. However, as soon as the 2 boys really bonded as a pack and knuckled down to the hierarchical domination of Tai as Bossman with the Balls, and Ben as the underdog, this is when the trouble stated. Ben started to be the Pack Defender, defending his pack leader Tai against all intruders.
At this point, OH started to walk the boys where he was unlikely to meet other people, and where there are rolling hills - making it easy to see who is coming. Then we got to the stage where Ben was not coming when he was called, which with a DA dog is obviously totally unacceptable, and this scenario ended with the dog either having to be put down or kept on a lead for the rest of his life, neither of which options were acceptable to us, so this is when hubby consulted with 2 dog behaviourists - one of whom said the dog should be destroyed, the other said you will never train a reliable recall without resorting to an e collar, which in any case they did not approve of and would have nothing to do with. OH is a medical scientist, with an honours degree specialising in mammalian physiology and zoology, so he did his research etc. etc. and to cut a very long story short, became an expert in the correct use of an e collar - and the rest, as they say, is history. A very very happy dog with a very reliable recall ...!
So please don't be judgemental - we have been through hell with Ben, but we now have a fantastically obedient, happy dog who can be let free in the appropriate places, safe in the knowledge we can call him back the minute we see another dog coming over the horizon.
Nikki J
Well-Known Member
I'm terrified of bullocks, having been surrounded by them when a child, but that still would not stop me from doing my duty and retrieving my dog from their midst, even though the dog would probably be at risk of injury from the bullocks, rather than the other way round! It is very generous of you to be sympathetic with her plight, but you are too kind IMO. That was so nice of you not to insist on the dog being destroyed, and trying to help rehome him -I can understand they felt they could not do this, I feel the same about my boy Ben. He was and is a "difficult" dog, and I would not trust anyone else to be up to the mark with him. Ben was kept on a long line in someone's back garden for the first 3 years of his life, no shelter, just concrete to lie on. It is unbelievable that the dog is as well balanced as he is, which he isn't really!!
I have no comment for the eejet man in your final paragraph ... for once words fail me!!
RutlandH2O
Well-Known Member
Bingo! ^^^This!!!
RutlandH2O
Well-Known Member
Nikki, wench's statement about dogs being kept on lead in public places at all times is NOT an unreasonable statement. Your analogy re: children on walking reins (THE most revolting and lazy invention) is typical of some of your other analogies (like the Western diet is comparable to McDonald's, from another thread). To equate young children with aggressive, uncontrollable dogs is simply off the wall!
tessybear
Well-Known Member
We keep Holly on the lead, for her own safety than anything else would rather have to take her out more times on the lead then let her off and risk her getting ran over or causing issues with livestock !!
tessybear
Well-Known Member
aggressive dogs IMO should be kept on the lead at all times. Having been the victim of an aggresive dog being let off the lead and having to break up a fight between a staffie and a little jack russel i will never want to witness again. Truth be told dogs that are aggresive to others should also be walked in a muzzle ... but then thats just my opinion
Superhot
Well-Known Member
There used to be a lady locally who walked her Akita cross off lead. The dog would attack other dogs whenever it saw them. Owners asked the Akita owner to please keep the dog under control, which she refused. Ultimately, she was reported to the dog warden and council, and sent a letter saying her dog should be kept on a lead and muzzled at all times outside of the home, or she would be in trouble. Result!
A customer of mine has a Husky cross BC. She did plenty of training to which the dog was very responsive, but when it came to the recall, there was no-one at home. Under guidance, she used an electric collar and that dog has the finest recall of any dog I've ever seen. It only has to wear the collar, you don't actually have to press the remote. I've always been very much against such methods, but have to admit, for this particular dog it has done the trick. Will there be repercussions long term, I really hope not? She's a lovely dog and they are very good owners.
A customer of mine has a Husky cross BC. She did plenty of training to which the dog was very responsive, but when it came to the recall, there was no-one at home. Under guidance, she used an electric collar and that dog has the finest recall of any dog I've ever seen. It only has to wear the collar, you don't actually have to press the remote. I've always been very much against such methods, but have to admit, for this particular dog it has done the trick. Will there be repercussions long term, I really hope not? She's a lovely dog and they are very good owners.
Nikki J
Well-Known Member
Strictly speaking, e collars are not "electric" - they do not give off electrical current - I am not at all technical, OH is the electrical expert, but the "shock" that you receive is like those games children have where you have to hold a handle, a "shock" is dispensed and the last one to let go is the winner.
For us it was very much last resort - why on earth would you want to inflict discomfort on an animal unless it was absolutely unnecessary. To give an equine example, you would not put a double bridle with pelham on a gentle old horse who was forward-going but had a soft mouth. You would start off with a more gentle curb, such as a running martingale to stop him getting his up maybe, or do some schooling or whatever.
So with our dogs, I do not believe it to be reasonable to whack an e collar round the neck of Fido just because you cannot be bothered to take the time to train a good recall.
But as a last resort, where you are faced with never being able to let your pooch run free, to me it is a no brainer. Expert training is required, and a good quality collar such as the Dogtra should be invested in. We bought our's second hand - new they are hundreds, but they are the best make IMO.
Tbh, I think if you just used it "as a convenience", it would not work. You cannot use an e collar to train a simple command like "sit", "stay" or "heel" IMO. These commands, again only my opinion, are pretty easy to train, but I am sure there are other avid e collar fans who would disagree with me.
However, where you come onto very serious issues - like stock worrying - where you may not have time to train using gentler measures - I would fully support anyone wishing to use an e collar to avoid any accidents.
Nikki J
Well-Known Member
Excellent news - what responsible owners! They love their dog, and they were prepared to try something which, as with myself, was probably very distasteful, for the good of the dog. Like this husky x, we never have to zap Ben now, but he still wears the collar just in case.
Nikki J
Well-Known Member
No - the OP said all dogs should be kept on a lead at all times. That is just totally unreasonable! Which is why I made the tongue in cheek remark about kids! I agree entirely that kids should be allowed to run free, but why is it OK that they should be able to do so, and yet my well-behaved, child friendly, obedient dogs cannot?
By public places, that means everywhere except my own private property - ipso facto, the OP was saying that ALL dogs should be kept on the lead at ALL times except when on their owner's private property - this is plain ridiculous. But I entirely agree about dangerous dogs, disobedient dogs, dogs who chase livestock etc.
Nikki J
Well-Known Member
aggressive dogs IMO should be kept on the lead at all times. Having been the victim of an aggresive dog being let off the lead and having to break up a fight between a staffie and a little jack russel i will never want to witness again. Truth be told dogs that are aggresive to others should also be walked in a muzzle ... but then thats just my opinion
I totally agree, and Ben was walked in a muzzle even when on the lead for some time. Now we don't need to do this any more.
Nikki J
Well-Known Member
I hope I've answered your question, as an avid supporter of e collars - if not, please tell me and I will attempt to do so!
They are not barbaric at all ... to me, a choke chain is far more barbaric. To me, never letting your dog off lead is barbaric. You need to do some research about e collars if you actually think they inflict an electric SHOCK - they do not. If you cut a live cable in half and touch the live wires, that will give you an electric shock. An e collar does not dispense electricity, and in the hands of those who know what they are doing - viz, my husband - they are an AMAZING tool and I am more than happy to take a video of Ben recalling when he is called so that you can see for yourself.
Nikki J
Well-Known Member
We can all google and find pros and cons to support our arguments.
All I can say is I am not a low life, nor am I at the bottom of the heap! I am someone who loves dogs first, closely followed by horses, with human beings a very poor way down the list! I happen to love my dog, who had a dreadful start in life through no fault of his own, who was abused and mistreated by ignorant people, and who when we first rescued him was savage and uncontrollable. We managed to make him fall back in love with the human race, especially children (who luckily he was never aggressive towards), but the one thing we were not getting anywhere on was the recall.
Now we have a dog with a perfect recall, who is even more besotted and devoted to his human pack ... not the reaction of a poor, cowed, terrified and abused beast I don't think. He worships the ground we walk on, and is so loving and so gentle. I know we did the right thing - he would be dead by now without our Dogtra.
RutlandH2O
Well-Known Member
Yup, that's what she said. There are a considerable amount of people who have the same belief...that dogs should be on lead at all times in public places. While your dog may be above reproach off lead, the unfortunate fact remains that there are incalculable numbers of dogs off lead with owners who don't have a clue...their dogs are not controlled, do not have any semblance of recall, do not have respect for other people's or dogs' space or fears. This is not a case of the few ruining it for the many. There are just too many off-lead dogs that shouldn't be off lead. That's what's unreasonable and ridiculous!
CorvusCorax
Deary me...
I had a DA dog and he was kept on a lead at all times in public/anywhere I was liable to run into other people and animals and I do actually agree with Lexie on that.
I was walking my young dog tonight, he is black, it was dark. Some ladies were coming across a narrow bridge which he was galloping towards, we meet a lot of walkers and he never bothers them but they didn't see him and it shocked them and one of them jumped backwards and screamed - he jumped backwards in shock too!
I did apologise and was mortified, I should have called him back and to heel, no one wants a big dog running up to them, I know he would not have bothered with them, he was just running towards the bridge, but it's perception - that woman saw a big black dog heading towards her in the dark and I feel bad that she was frightened.
As regards e-collars, I've stated my opinion, others have stated theirs, to which we are all entitled
I was walking my young dog tonight, he is black, it was dark. Some ladies were coming across a narrow bridge which he was galloping towards, we meet a lot of walkers and he never bothers them but they didn't see him and it shocked them and one of them jumped backwards and screamed - he jumped backwards in shock too!
I did apologise and was mortified, I should have called him back and to heel, no one wants a big dog running up to them, I know he would not have bothered with them, he was just running towards the bridge, but it's perception - that woman saw a big black dog heading towards her in the dark and I feel bad that she was frightened.
As regards e-collars, I've stated my opinion, others have stated theirs, to which we are all entitled
Jools2345
Well-Known Member
In response to Alec's questions;
I own and electric collar, I have had dogs for 28yrs (ish) and taught dog training and puppy socialisation for 8+yrs.
my youngest bitch (a lurcher) would hunt cats at the last yard I worked at, she did not just chase a running cat but actively went out of her way to hunt them out from where they were resting. i had always been very careful introducing her to livestock, in fact she came goat milking with me when she was 9 wks old so she met goats in a controlled enviroment where the goats would not be flighty or run away. she shows no interest in farm livestock but did with horses for a while but that was relatively easy to train her out of. she met cats as a puppy but still had the desire to hunt them-i have no doubt that she would have become a cat killer if action had not been taken.
i purchased an e collar after much debate and many discussions with people regarding the pro's and con's.
the one i purchased comes with a non active dummy collar that they advise the dog wears for at least 2 wks before using the active collar, this if introduced properly prevents the dog becoming conditioned and adjusting its behaviour when wearing the collar. my bitch wore the dummy collar for longer than suggested.
when used i spent all my time watching her when she was loose so the shock was given as soon as she 'flushed' a cat therefore creating the illusion that the cat delivers the shock. she had 3 shocks before backing off when a cat was flushed, she still shows interest in cats but is not hunting them just pricks her ears when they run.
without the e collar she would have possibly been on the road after a cat, unable to join me and my other dogs at work or spent her life tied up or on a lead.
i would always think long and hard before using one they are for me a last resort because i like to think the vast majority of dogs can be trained without them BUT the instinct to hunt and kill is often a very strong one
I own and electric collar, I have had dogs for 28yrs (ish) and taught dog training and puppy socialisation for 8+yrs.
my youngest bitch (a lurcher) would hunt cats at the last yard I worked at, she did not just chase a running cat but actively went out of her way to hunt them out from where they were resting. i had always been very careful introducing her to livestock, in fact she came goat milking with me when she was 9 wks old so she met goats in a controlled enviroment where the goats would not be flighty or run away. she shows no interest in farm livestock but did with horses for a while but that was relatively easy to train her out of. she met cats as a puppy but still had the desire to hunt them-i have no doubt that she would have become a cat killer if action had not been taken.
i purchased an e collar after much debate and many discussions with people regarding the pro's and con's.
the one i purchased comes with a non active dummy collar that they advise the dog wears for at least 2 wks before using the active collar, this if introduced properly prevents the dog becoming conditioned and adjusting its behaviour when wearing the collar. my bitch wore the dummy collar for longer than suggested.
when used i spent all my time watching her when she was loose so the shock was given as soon as she 'flushed' a cat therefore creating the illusion that the cat delivers the shock. she had 3 shocks before backing off when a cat was flushed, she still shows interest in cats but is not hunting them just pricks her ears when they run.
without the e collar she would have possibly been on the road after a cat, unable to join me and my other dogs at work or spent her life tied up or on a lead.
i would always think long and hard before using one they are for me a last resort because i like to think the vast majority of dogs can be trained without them BUT the instinct to hunt and kill is often a very strong one
Llanali
Well-Known Member
I have salukis, so true hunting sight hounds.
I let mine off the lead on private land, and in totally secured areas where no other dogs are found- ie my pups play fetch in the kids netball court late at night.
My youngest does not have fail safe recall yet, and my oldest is a hunter- she will not stop to see if what she is chasing is a rabbit or a Yorkshire terrier, and will kill it the moment she touches it. Her recall is immaculate, but not when in full chase, and I'm not risking anyone else's animals.
I do not believe for a minute that a life on the lead is barbaric: there are too many variables- how long a lead, do they have "sniff time", what surfaces do thy walk on etc etc.
I'm lucky enough to have areas I can let them off; not everyone does and I don't think their dogs are automatically suffering in some way just because of thAt.
I'm also confident that an e collar would NOT stop a pair of coursing salukis. A broken leg doesn't stop them, a six inch gash doesn't hold them back, I don't think a collar would. Until you have seen and owned these dogs and watched them hunt properly, I don't think anyone can imagine the focus they have.
I let mine off the lead on private land, and in totally secured areas where no other dogs are found- ie my pups play fetch in the kids netball court late at night.
My youngest does not have fail safe recall yet, and my oldest is a hunter- she will not stop to see if what she is chasing is a rabbit or a Yorkshire terrier, and will kill it the moment she touches it. Her recall is immaculate, but not when in full chase, and I'm not risking anyone else's animals.
I do not believe for a minute that a life on the lead is barbaric: there are too many variables- how long a lead, do they have "sniff time", what surfaces do thy walk on etc etc.
I'm lucky enough to have areas I can let them off; not everyone does and I don't think their dogs are automatically suffering in some way just because of thAt.
I'm also confident that an e collar would NOT stop a pair of coursing salukis. A broken leg doesn't stop them, a six inch gash doesn't hold them back, I don't think a collar would. Until you have seen and owned these dogs and watched them hunt properly, I don't think anyone can imagine the focus they have.
lexiedhb
Well-Known Member
That's a bit of an aggressive question without learning some of the FACTS first isn't it??!
When we first rescued Ben, we had no idea. We already had another dog, a large entire male mally cross, and to start with there was a bit of tension between the 2 dogs - Ben is castrated - and although they had several quite severe scraps between the 2 of them, Ben was fine with other dogs on and off lead. However, as soon as the 2 boys really bonded as a pack and knuckled down to the hierarchical domination of Tai as Bossman with the Balls, and Ben as the underdog, this is when the trouble stated. Ben started to be the Pack Defender, defending his pack leader Tai against all intruders.
At this point, OH started to walk the boys where he was unlikely to meet other people, and where there are rolling hills - making it easy to see who is coming. Then we got to the stage where Ben was not coming when he was called, which with a DA dog is obviously totally unacceptable, and this scenario ended with the dog either having to be put down or kept on a lead for the rest of his life, neither of which options were acceptable to us, so this is when hubby consulted with 2 dog behaviourists - one of whom said the dog should be destroyed, the other said you will never train a reliable recall without resorting to an e collar, which in any case they did not approve of and would have nothing to do with. OH is a medical scientist, with an honours degree specialising in mammalian physiology and zoology, so he did his research etc. etc. and to cut a very long story short, became an expert in the correct use of an e collar - and the rest, as they say, is history. A very very happy dog with a very reliable recall ...!
So please don't be judgemental - we have been through hell with Ben, but we now have a fantastically obedient, happy dog who can be let free in the appropriate places, safe in the knowledge we can call him back the minute we see another dog coming over the horizon.
Not aggressive or judgemental
Many would disagree with a) sledy pully type dogs being offlead b) Known DA dogs being off lead c) the use of electric shocks to "train" your dog. d) that a dogs life may as well be over if they are always on a lead. If you think all is perfect with your situation then fine- others dont, does not make them judgemental or aggressive Ta
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tessybear
Well-Known Member
I think regarding a dog that is aggressive and will attack another dog they shouldn't be let off at all really. Like i say that dog that attacked the JR was known dog aggressive and once it was rehomed ( dog was from a shelter) the owner although told she must have her muzzle on at all times when out because she wouldn't think twice about attacking another dog failed to do so and once again on a walk she attacked another dog.
I always think how would you feel if you have a friendly dog that was attacked by an aggressive one because the owners think it's cruel to keep them on the lead. To me what is cruel is the friendly dog minding it's own business being attacked and the stress the owner will have to go through due to this.
Although like i say Holly is not aggressive, she is exercised regularly and gets what she needs for her breed. Yes it would be nice to have a dog that was perfect off the lead and we have one of them (the JR) but i am more than happy to walk her on the lead if it ensures her safety.
I always think how would you feel if you have a friendly dog that was attacked by an aggressive one because the owners think it's cruel to keep them on the lead. To me what is cruel is the friendly dog minding it's own business being attacked and the stress the owner will have to go through due to this.
Although like i say Holly is not aggressive, she is exercised regularly and gets what she needs for her breed. Yes it would be nice to have a dog that was perfect off the lead and we have one of them (the JR) but i am more than happy to walk her on the lead if it ensures her safety.