Cannot ever let dog off lead.

[ribbons]

I'll keep this short as many have given good explanations of their experiences with an e collar.
Some one said (dry rot I think, apologies if that's wrong)
"very soon you find your dog won't work as you wish unless wearing the collar"
WRONG !
I have never had need to use one but I know 2 people who have. In the first case the dog received one well timed shock, and returned immediately to owner. The next time the warning had the required effect and no shock was required. A verbal request was issued before collar activated at all. The collar warning was used 4 times before the dog obeyed the voice command. The collar was never needed again which led to it being lent to the second person o knew.
This dog took a little longer, 3 or 4 shocks were needed, and probably a dozen or so collar warnings before verbal command was enough.
Both these dogs now lead happy lives, with plenty of freedom because they are now obedient and trustworthy.
The collar has been lying in a drawer for 3 years+.

I think a short sharp shock is a very suitable training aid, and certainly more desirable than a dog in an RTA or an injured human or savaged cats or livestock.
A dog must be obedient at all times, otherwise it is a danger to itself and others.
If more dog owners treated their dogs fairly but firmly and realised you can't reason with them, they neither understand nor care, there would be less problems.

I guess I'm old fashioned, but I despair of all the faffing with dogs, horses and children.
Fair rules and boundaries from day one, and consistency, then Everyone is safer and happier.

Also, I am convinced if these dogs were in the right hands from the beginning an e collar would never be needed.
Inconsistent owners blurring the rules are what spoil dogs, who then take advantage and become confused. Then drastic measures are required to regain an obedient dog. This scenario also applies to the two dogs I have described.

I am so sorry, this wasn't short at all, but disobedient dogs really grind my gears, and it's never their fault.

 

[moppett]

Sorry to pitch in halfway through this threat, I don't know enough to comment on e-collars but - ribbons, like all dog owners I want to be a good one and of course have well mannered obedient dogs who respect clear boundaries that I have established.

So when it comes to recall, and establishing a good one - how are you supposed to make the distinction between good dog and praise/reward for coming straight away, and an awful one that involves dogs eventual return and only after shouting its name/trying to attract its attention like a crazy lady? At the moment I just reward any return to me as I read that you shouldn't scold a poor recall as it'll do no good.

I use this forum for the knowledge of more experienced dog owners/trainers than me so welcome any/all advice. I think this thread is great, as so many struggle with recall for various reasons.

 

[ribbons]

Moppett, I don't know if anyone else will consider aswering your query, but I'm afraid I can't help.

I would never offer specific advice on a forum. Without meeting you and your dog that would be impossible. Every dog, and every owner are different. The combination of owner with different dog or dog with a different owner varies greatly also.
I would suggest you find a good trainer and get them to help if your not sure. Asking around owners of well mannered sociable dogs should point you in the direction of a good trainer.
I'm not a big fan of big group training clubs either. They have their place but I prefer one to one training, at least in the early stages.
Good luck, persist in finding the right help. An obedient well trained dog is a joy to own.

 

[Nikki J]

Yup, that's what she said. There are a considerable amount of people who have the same belief...that dogs should be on lead at all times in public places. While your dog may be above reproach off lead, the unfortunate fact remains that there are incalculable numbers of dogs off lead with owners who don't have a clue...their dogs are not controlled, do not have any semblance of recall, do not have respect for other people's or dogs' space or fears. This is not a case of the few ruining it for the many. There are just too many off-lead dogs that shouldn't be off lead. That's what's unreasonable and ridiculous!

I totally agree - but to generalise against the whole of the dog race is extremely unfair. If you don't like dogs, fair enough - I don't like cats, but I don't insist on them being kept out of my garden by fair means or foul! I accept that cats are a law unto themselves, although I reserve the right to turn the hose on them if I see them stalking my birds! I find it slighly irksome to be told by someone that clearly doesn't like dogs that my well behaved boys should be leashed at all times!

But I do agree with you - there are too many off-lead dogs that clearly should be on the lead.

 

[Nikki J]

I had a DA dog and he was kept on a lead at all times in public/anywhere I was liable to run into other people and animals and I do actually agree with Lexie on that.

I was walking my young dog tonight, he is black, it was dark. Some ladies were coming across a narrow bridge which he was galloping towards, we meet a lot of walkers and he never bothers them but they didn't see him and it shocked them and one of them jumped backwards and screamed - he jumped backwards in shock too!
I did apologise and was mortified, I should have called him back and to heel, no one wants a big dog running up to them, I know he would not have bothered with them, he was just running towards the bridge, but it's perception - that woman saw a big black dog heading towards her in the dark and I feel bad that she was frightened.

As regards e-collars, I've stated my opinion, others have stated theirs, to which we are all entitled

Yup, absolutely!

 

[Nikki J]

In response to Alec's questions;

I own and electric collar, I have had dogs for 28yrs (ish) and taught dog training and puppy socialisation for 8+yrs.

my youngest bitch (a lurcher) would hunt cats at the last yard I worked at, she did not just chase a running cat but actively went out of her way to hunt them out from where they were resting. i had always been very careful introducing her to livestock, in fact she came goat milking with me when she was 9 wks old so she met goats in a controlled enviroment where the goats would not be flighty or run away. she shows no interest in farm livestock but did with horses for a while but that was relatively easy to train her out of. she met cats as a puppy but still had the desire to hunt them-i have no doubt that she would have become a cat killer if action had not been taken.

i purchased an e collar after much debate and many discussions with people regarding the pro's and con's.

the one i purchased comes with a non active dummy collar that they advise the dog wears for at least 2 wks before using the active collar, this if introduced properly prevents the dog becoming conditioned and adjusting its behaviour when wearing the collar. my bitch wore the dummy collar for longer than suggested.

when used i spent all my time watching her when she was loose so the shock was given as soon as she 'flushed' a cat therefore creating the illusion that the cat delivers the shock. she had 3 shocks before backing off when a cat was flushed, she still shows interest in cats but is not hunting them just pricks her ears when they run.

without the e collar she would have possibly been on the road after a cat, unable to join me and my other dogs at work or spent her life tied up or on a lead.

i would always think long and hard before using one they are for me a last resort because i like to think the vast majority of dogs can be trained without them BUT the instinct to hunt and kill is often a very strong one

You have absolutely hit the nail on the head there Jools! Some dogs do indeed have an extremely high prey drive - lurchers are a good example of this, all the northern breeds I would include in that, and mine bear witness to this! I personally believe that it would be extremely difficult and terribly time-consuming to have trained your lurcher using positive methods - time during which as you rightly say she could have ended up chasing a cat across a road, to the detriment of both species and possibly the road users as well.

Far better IMO, kinder in every way, was to do what you did. The dog still shows interest in cats, as my boys do in anything that runs, but you and I can control our dogs and stop them from going into hunting mode without even having to press the button on the collar. Often now we take Ben out without his collar, but it makes no difference to his level of obedience, he still is exemplary in his recall. It was a very much last a resort, but it was exactly the right thing to do, as it was for your lurcher.

 

[Spudlet]

To say all dogs should be on the lead at all times because some dogs misbehave off lead is rather like telling someone that because their neighbour with a newly off the track racehorse can't currently canter safely in the open, they are not allowed to take their 20 year old bombproof cob for a little spin. It's using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

 

[Nikki J]

I have salukis, so true hunting sight hounds.

I let mine off the lead on private land, and in totally secured areas where no other dogs are found- ie my pups play fetch in the kids netball court late at night.

My youngest does not have fail safe recall yet, and my oldest is a hunter- she will not stop to see if what she is chasing is a rabbit or a Yorkshire terrier, and will kill it the moment she touches it. Her recall is immaculate, but not when in full chase, and I'm not risking anyone else's animals.

I do not believe for a minute that a life on the lead is barbaric: there are too many variables- how long a lead, do they have "sniff time", what surfaces do thy walk on etc etc.

I'm lucky enough to have areas I can let them off; not everyone does and I don't think their dogs are automatically suffering in some way just because of thAt.

I'm also confident that an e collar would NOT stop a pair of coursing salukis. A broken leg doesn't stop them, a six inch gash doesn't hold them back, I don't think a collar would. Until you have seen and owned these dogs and watched them hunt properly, I don't think anyone can imagine the focus they have.

It absolutely would, I can virtually guarantee it! I am familiar with the breed, and I totally understand where you are coming from, but you don't understand how an e collar works. The idea of an e collar is not to punish the dog, to inflict pain so that he would stop doing even what he likes doing more than anything else, that is not how an e collar works. An e collar is all about timing. It is essential that the correction is given at precisely the correct moment, and that is impossible to describe remotely really. I will try and give an example though. Let us take the scenario that your salukis have put something up on the set aside and they have the opportunity to run for miles pursuing that prey. To a saluki this is probably the most exciting thing they could ever do - they would keep pursuing that prey come what may - a bitch on heat, as you say a broken leg of a serious wound, none of this would deter them from the goal in their sights, they would keep on running. But you want them to stop, not chase the game, and return to you. Because there are more than 1, you would not call the name, but just the trigger word loudly and in a commanding voice. My word is "Come!". Once emitted, if the dogs don't show a positive response within a second - obviously if they are at full tilt, they are not going to be able to stop on a sixpence - but they should show a response, a pause in the gait, a turn of the head, a slowing of the pace - then you give a 1-second zap whilst at the same time barking out your trigger command. By now, they should have slowed down or stopped, and be coming back. If not, then repeat the process but give a sustained zap, and I am pretty sure that you would not need to go through this process more than 3 times before they understand that they must respond to your trigger word. Obviously you need to train this trigger in advance - we did this with Ben very quickly by merely having him on a long line, calling "Come" and then rewarding him with praise. He picked it up literally in seconds, because he is extremely intelligent, and we could then move on to the e collar training.

Obviously, this is only a very brief synopsis, but it should give you an idea of how quickly and easily it is to recall even an ancient hunting breed like your Salukis, who doubtless just like my boys go completely deaf when they get into hunting mode. The e collar forms an invisible leash between you, the handler, and your dog. After a very short space of time - with us, it was only 3 zaps and no need for sustained, Ben was recalling beautifully. That was about 1 year, or more, ago, and really he doesn't need to wear it any more. OH only puts it on him more as a safeguard as anything else, but does sometimes forget, and it makes no difference whatsoever. The e collar has changed my boy's whole pattern of behaviour, he is far more loving now than he used to be, he will leap up on the sofa on my husband's lap and cover him with wolf kisses, and the same with me. We can groom him now without losing a finger, we used to have to muzzle him to get the knots out with a stripping comb, but now he just lets us do it, although he does grumble a bit on occasion!

 

[Nikki J]

Not aggressive or judgemental Many would disagree with a) sledy pully type dogs being offlead b) Known DA dogs being off lead c) the use of electric shocks to "train" your dog. d) that a dogs life may as well be over if they are always on a lead. If you think all is perfect with your situation then fine- others dont, does not make them judgemental or aggressive Ta

Yes, I do think all is perfect in our situation, thanx You are right, many people do disagree with my boys being off lead - and the use of an e collar (NOT electric shocks - there is no current involved in an e collar). But I take no notice of them, because what is important is that I know my dogs better than anyone else, and I know that what I am doing is the very best for them. I don't go making wild sweeping statement that I think all sleddie types should be allowed off lead, and should be trained with an e collar - it is my personal opinion that I think all sleddie types should be allowed off lead by training a good recall, and IF this proves impossible, then if they can afford to purchase an e collar, and get professional instruction, that may be a course of an action they may wish to take.

But to make a sweeping statement that you think all dogs should be on the lead at all times in public places, is just way ott.

You are of course perfectly entitled to your opinion, but expect to be commented on if you go ott - IMO of course!!

No hard feelings btw - I'm not being aggressive, I just fail to understand why you should think it reasonable to demand all dogs be kept on the lead all the time, when we are extremely responsible owners and only walk our dogs where no-one else goes, we can see for miles, and they are clapped onto their leads as soon as we espy anyone around!

 

[lexiedhb]

Yes, I do think all is perfect in our situation, thanx You are right, many people do disagree with my boys being off lead - and the use of an e collar (NOT electric shocks - there is no current involved in an e collar). But I take no notice of them, because what is important is that I know my dogs better than anyone else, and I know that what I am doing is the very best for them. I don't go making wild sweeping statement that I think all sleddie types should be allowed off lead, and should be trained with an e collar - it is my personal opinion that I think all sleddie types should be allowed off lead by training a good recall, and IF this proves impossible, then if they can afford to purchase an e collar, and get professional instruction, that may be a course of an action they may wish to take.

But to make a sweeping statement that you think all dogs should be on the lead at all times in public places, is just way ott.

You are of course perfectly entitled to your opinion, but expect to be commented on if you go ott - IMO of course!!

No hard feelings btw - I'm not being aggressive, I just fail to understand why you should think it reasonable to demand all dogs be kept on the lead all the time, when we are extremely responsible owners and only walk our dogs where no-one else goes, we can see for miles, and they are clapped onto their leads as soon as we espy anyone around!

Erm I didnt demand all dogs be kept on a lead.. may want to read who actually posted what!

 

[Dry Rot]

I'm off to buy an e-collar. If they work so well on dogs, just think that they can do for horse training!

I was always led to believe that no knowledge comes out of the end of a stick so it was counter productive to beat a dog, but it seems electricity over comes that problem

E-collars are illegal in Wales, soon will be in Scotland, and then England will probably follow. Why is it that Parliament takes notice of the stupid experts who say these wonderful devices should be banned?

 

[moppett]

Moppett, I don't know if anyone else will consider aswering your query, but I'm afraid I can't help.

I would never offer specific advice on a forum. Without meeting you and your dog that would be impossible. Every dog, and every owner are different. The combination of owner with different dog or dog with a different owner varies greatly also.
I would suggest you find a good trainer and get them to help if your not sure. Asking around owners of well mannered sociable dogs should point you in the direction of a good trainer.
I'm not a big fan of big group training clubs either. They have their place but I prefer one to one training, at least in the early stages.
Good luck, persist in finding the right help. An obedient well trained dog is a joy to own.

thanks ribbons, i go dog training once a week on a 121 basis and think my trainer is great. we keep making progress but recall is a little way down the list - we're working on fear/confidence, and lead reactivity - but we will get there! just the talking about recall just had me thinking...as just positive training (clicker) seems a little one way atm with me making all the effort and the dogs just being spoilt! but thats probably me not being patient enough and needing more training!!

 

[tessybear]

Nice to see some people on here who are very knowledgeable in the subject
I do think though you cannot always blame the owners not fully, instincts kick in that have been bred into the dog over centuries.

We always get comments on how good Holly is round the house, doesn’t dare jump up or invade personal space and will do whatever you ask of her. The type of dog you could leave the gate wide open and she wouldn't run out like an invisible barrier is there.

But if she sees a deer or rabbit she will be gone, no hearing what so ever and she would follow that animal into a road and under a car.

Sad really

 

[RutlandH2O]

I find it slighly irksome to be told by someone that clearly doesn't like dogs that my well behaved boys should be leashed at all times!

But I do agree with you - there are too many off-lead dogs that clearly should be on the lead.

I don't know to whom you refer when you say "someone that (the word should be who) clearly doesn't like dogs..." If you are referring to me, boy have you got a wrong number! None of my dogs are EVER off lead in public places, EVER!! And they have good to excellent recall. I moved to the UK with 15 dogs (yes, they all went through 6 months of quarantine with me at their beck and call every single day). They were a very important part of my family (this was 18 years ago, and those 15 are all long gone) and there was no question of them not being part of a move halfway around the globe. So, don't talk to me about liking, much less loving, dogs. There are cities, towns, and villages were there are leash laws, with fines for any dogs off lead, and, for good reason. Aside from the obvious problems of loose dogs and traffic, pavement fouling, cocking legs on storefronts, other not-so-friendly dogs, there's the situation where some people are genuinely frightened of dogs. I'm a person who would never trespass or allow my child to do so. Likewise, in my mind, a loose dog could be guilty of trespass, whether it's someone's garden, shop window, chained bicycle, carpark, beach blanket (think cocked leg). I don't believe dogs suffer when on lead. I know mine don't. The two dogs I now own are a JRT and a GBGV (an old breed of French scent hounds). They are sheer delight on lead, but I, also, know the hunting/chasing drive in both dogs is tremendous. When I was interviewed before I got my GBGV, my breeder asked me what were my feelings about dogs off lead (she lives in the wilds of Perthshire). I've always erred on the side of caution and feel my dogs are safer on lead, especially in populated areas. So, with much trepidation, I told her that I preferred my dogs on lead. She let out a sigh and said she was so relieved because once the breed is on scent they are almost impossible to recall, even if their recall is well-established. There is something almost primordial about the GBGV and I would never risk her, or the JRT's safety away from home.

Sorry Spudlet, your analogy just doesn't translate. In both of your cases, someone is on the horses and steering for that hypothetical "spin." Now, if you intended to release the racehorse onto open land...

 

[Spudlet]

Letting a dog off lead is not - or should not be - the same as relinquishing all control or contact. I am still in control of my dog, even without being in contact with him via a bit of string. I wouldn't risk him off lead on a road or in town - he's a dog - but in a suitable area, he will be off lead. I couldn't train him, and consequently couldn't work him, if I couldn't practice with him off lead in suitable areas and since sadly I don't have access to unlimited woods and fields of my own, that means training in the local country park. Your chosen breeds may be unsuitable for off lead work but mine is not - in fact working with a person under control whilst not being on the lead is exactly what he was built for. So I fail to see why my dog should be treated in the same way yours are. Although of course, clearly you know better!

 

[tessybear]

Letting a dog off lead is not - or should not be - the same as relinquishing all control or contact. I am still in control of my dog, even without being in contact with him via a bit of string. I wouldn't risk him off lead on a road or in town - he's a dog - but in a suitable area, he will be off lead. I couldn't train him, and consequently couldn't work him, if I couldn't practice with him off lead in suitable areas and since sadly I don't have access to unlimited woods and fields of my own, that means training in the local country park. Your chosen breeds may be unsuitable for off lead work but mine is not - in fact working with a person under control whilst not being on the lead is exactly what he was built for. So I fail to see why my dog should be treated in the same way yours are. Although of course, clearly you know better!

eeek you don't mean me do you ? I have nothing against working breeds being off the lead like you say if you have recall then go for it What breed do you if you don't mind me asking ?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Nikki, with respect, there are a lot of dogs who's drive to do what it is they feel compelled to do, will carry them through the e-collar, or indeed any training aid, or indeed, hitting them with sticks (not that I have tried it).

It is, like most things, not a failsafe. I think you may be imbuing it with powers that it does not possess.

 

[Spudlet]

eeek you don't mean me do you ? I have nothing against working breeds being off the lead like you say if you have recall then go for it What breed do you if you don't mind me asking ?

No - my point is that you handle the dog you've got, rather than apply a one size fits all approach - if you have found a way to handle your dog, awesome What gets me is when people say that because their dog reacts in one way, all dogs should be treated in the same way that happens to work for their particular dog. It's rather narrow-minded!

I have a spaniel - mostly cocker, though we suspect there may be a bit of springer in there too He's a good lad these days, and does me proud out beating on occasion.

 

[RutlandH2O]

Although of course, clearly you know better!

Yes, I know better about my dogs. There are too many off-lead dogs with no manners and owners who just don't care. Your sarcasm is ill-placed!

 

[tessybear]

No - my point is that you handle the dog you've got, rather than apply a one size fits all approach - if you have found a way to handle your dog, awesome What gets me is when people say that because their dog reacts in one way, all dogs should be treated in the same way that happens to work for their particular dog. It's rather narrow-minded!

I have a spaniel - mostly cocker, though we suspect there may be a bit of springer in there too He's a good lad these days, and does me proud out beating on occasion.

Well you hit the nail on the head with that one We have polar oppostie dogs one who is fab off the lead and i wouldn't keep her on because her buddy is.

Ah love spaniels working on persuading the family we need a little cute cocker pup... hairdresser got one and it's like a little teddy

 

[Spudlet]

Yes, I know better about my dogs. There are too many off-lead dogs with no manners and owners who just don't care. Your sarcasm is ill-placed!

I'm certain that you do, which is my whole point! You know your dogs, and handle them appropriately - and I do the same for mine, and if those ways are different but effective, then all well and good. What is irritating to me is when some people make sweeping generalisations about all dogs and owners based on their own experiences - leading to statements such as 'all dogs should be on the lead all the time'. Well no, actually, some dogs should be on the lead all the time, but some are fine to be off the lead some of the time, and this should be recognised.

As to badly managed dogs, well they exist and always will, although I have to say I don't meet many around here. Most of the dogs we run into are kept under control, with or without a lead. However the conclusion that all dogs and owners should be penalised for the transgressions of some owners is disproportionate.

 

[Jools2345]

I'm off to buy an e-collar. If they work so well on dogs, just think that they can do for horse training!

I was always led to believe that no knowledge comes out of the end of a stick so it was counter productive to beat a dog, but it seems electricity over comes that problem

E-collars are illegal in Wales, soon will be in Scotland, and then England will probably follow. Why is it that Parliament takes notice of the stupid experts who say these wonderful devices should be banned?

it worked for my lurcher by giving her the impression that cats deliver a shock when they are approached to closely, she had three shocks wore it daily for 6 months and has not worn it for over 2 and half yrs now but she still has a little more caution when close to cats and it gives me enough time to intervene.

i always hated the idea of one before having this bitch.

i am interested as to how others such as yourself would have dealt with a dog that was hunting cats?

 

[Superhot]

I'm very fortunate with the dog training classes I go to. It has been said on here that the answer isn't always a one size fits all and that is so true. We could have 2 people with the same problem at class, but our trainer assesses the dog and its owner, before offering advice on how to cure that problem. Humans and dogs all differ, so the advice for the same problem can and does vary.

 

[Llanali]

Nikki- thank you for your reply. Ill answer fully when I get home,

However it is ignorant to state that I do not understand how e collars work. I do, I have used them in other breeds with total success. I totally understand what you are saying, but i have also employed spray/ beep/ vibrate collars with salukis- nothing.
You say you are experienced with the breed? May I enquire what that experience adds up to?

Mine is on te basis of 11 salukis of my own, and 40 years of breeding one of the mot successful accredited breed lines in existence, with coursing and show champions numbering into the 20s.
Cavecanem, thank you- I agree.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Llalani, I think it's what I mentioned earlier about trying to argue with genetics!!

 

[blackcob]

i am interested as to how others such as yourself would have dealt with a dog that was hunting cats?

Keep it on a lead.

I was arrogant enough to try and tackle thousands of years of genetics - succeeded in many areas, incidentally, but in the case of instant recall and prey drive I hold my hands up and unwind the long line.

 

[Llanali]

Absolutely CC. It's just not going to work.

When I said a broken leg didnt stop them, I mean it totally didnt even cause a break in stride, so that moment of attention that Nikki talks about, and that I agree would e your moment of opportunity with another dog, does not exist. They do not falter.

 

[Superhot]

Nikki, how did wearing an e-collar make you dog more loving to you??? Genuine question, not sniping!
Llanali, are you saying you take your dogs coursing????

 

[Llanali]

No superhot, I'm saying before the ban, I used to take my dogs coursing. Now they lure course

 

[Llanali]

It absolutely would, I can virtually guarantee it! I am familiar with the breed, and I totally understand where you are coming from, but you don't understand how an e collar works. To use your words, I find it irksome that you assume I am ignorant

The idea of an e collar is not to punish the dog, to inflict pain so that he would stop doing even what he likes doing more than anything else, that is not how an e collar works. An e collar is all about timing. A statement which is true of any animal training

It is essential that the correction is given at precisely the correct moment, and that is impossible to describe remotely really. I will try and give an example though. Let us take the scenario that your salukis have put something up on the set aside and they have the opportunity to run for miles pursuing that prey. To a saluki this is probably the most exciting thing they could ever do - they would keep pursuing that prey come what may - a bitch on heat, as you say a broken leg of a serious wound, none of this would deter them from the goal in their sights, they would keep on running. But you want them to stop, not chase the game, and return to you. Because there are more than 1, you would not call the name, but just the trigger word loudly and in a commanding voice. My word is "Come!". Once emitted, if the dogs don't show a positive response within a second - obviously if they are at full tilt, they are not going to be able to stop on a sixpence - but they should show a response, a pause in the gait, a turn of the head, a slowing of the pace - then you give a 1-second zap whilst at the same time barking out your trigger command. I don't know how many fully chasing salukis you have come across, but I can assure you that some- I can't guarantee all obviously- do not falter, they do not pause or turn their heads. They hunt to kill- when our Bashira broke his leg chasing he did not falter in his gait for a moment- the leg flapped around.

By now, they should have slowed down or stopped, and be coming back. If not, then repeat the process but give a sustained zap, and I am pretty sure that you would not need to go through this process more than 3 times before they understand that they must respond to your trigger word. Should have? SHOULD have? No, not necessarily Obviously you need to train this trigger in advance - we did this with Ben very quickly by merely having him on a long line, calling "Come" and then rewarding him with praise. He picked it up literally in seconds, because he is extremely intelligent, and we could then move on to the e collar training. It has NOTHING to do with intelligence I'm afraid. Some of my salukis hold KC Gold awards for citizenship and recall is included in that. They come from anywhere, first time- BUT not when chasing.

Obviously, this is only a very brief synopsis, but it should give you an idea of how quickly and easily it is to recall even an ancient hunting breed like your Salukis, quickly and easily? Wow. Now that's a line I think many saluki or gazelle hound owners would find not much short of hilarity who doubtless just like my boys go completely deaf when they get into hunting mode. The e collar forms an invisible leash between you, the handler, and your dog. After a very short space of time - with us, it was only 3 zaps and no need for sustained, Ben was recalling beautifully. That was about 1 year, or more, ago, and really he doesn't need to wear it any more. OH only puts it on him more as a safeguard as anything else, but does sometimes forget, and it makes no difference whatsoever. The e collar has changed my boy's whole pattern of behaviour, he is far more loving now than he used to be, he will leap up on the sofa on my husband's lap and cover him with wolf kisses, and the same with me. We can groom him now without losing a finger, we used to have to muzzle him to get the knots out with a stripping comb, but now he just lets us do it, although he does grumble a bit on occasion! my dogs have NEVER been human agressive, nor even dog or pet aggressive except if chasing. Mine live harmoniously wiht cats and other dog breeds, and horses. I totally fail to see, as Superhot mentions later- how it has made your dog more loving. My dogs adore me, and I them,and it has nothing to do with whether their blood burns at the thought of a hare or deer

Nice to see some people on here who are very knowledgeable in the subject
I do think though you cannot always blame the owners not fully, instincts kick in that have been bred into the dog over centuries.

We always get comments on how good Holly is round the house, doesn’t dare jump up or invade personal space and will do whatever you ask of her. The type of dog you could leave the gate wide open and she wouldn't run out like an invisible barrier is there.

But if she sees a deer or rabbit she will be gone, no hearing what so ever and she would follow that animal into a road and under a car.

Sad really

It is sad isn't it? But glorious in it's own right. I cried buckets when I lost my saluki as above, when he broke his leg chaisng, but the adrenalin kept him from pain and he died doing his first true love.

They are sheer delight on lead, but I, also, know the hunting/chasing drive in both dogs is tremendous. When I was interviewed before I got my GBGV, my breeder asked me what were my feelings about dogs off lead (she lives in the wilds of Perthshire). I've always erred on the side of caution and feel my dogs are safer on lead, especially in populated areas. So, with much trepidation, I told her that I preferred my dogs on lead. She let out a sigh and said she was so relieved because once the breed is on scent they are almost impossible to recall, even if their recall is well-established. There is something almost primordial about the GBGV and I would never risk her, or the JRT's safety away from home.

Another breeder here who is never disappointed if one of my potential owners will not let them off the lead except in private enclosed land. And incidently, I love GBGV and PBGVs!

Nikki, with respect, there are a lot of dogs who's drive to do what it is they feel compelled to do, will carry them through the e-collar, or indeed any training aid, or indeed, hitting them with sticks (not that I have tried it).

It is, like most things, not a failsafe. I think you may be imbuing it with powers that it does not possess.

Llalani, I think it's what I mentioned earlier about trying to argue with genetics!!

Keep it on a lead.

I was arrogant enough to try and tackle thousands of years of genetics - succeeded in many areas, incidentally, but in the case of instant recall and prey drive I hold my hands up and unwind the long line.

Genetics as CC and BC have said above, are what they are. I have learnt from previous mistakes- our salukis that got injured did so chasing at home on our land, but my Mother lost a young dog when she was 23- he bolted across a road and under a motor car. The rabbit he chased was also killed by said motor car.