can't believe some people - loaners

[Santa_Claus]

Ok basic situation friend's horse on loan to friend of a mutal friend, official contract never ended up being drawn up.

Horse been on loan all summer (loan started Aprilish) with agreement loaner pays everything but insurance to stay with current firm. Insurance issue got confused loaner thinking owner should pay it as it unreasonable for her to! (err what!?!?!?!)

Month ago today loaner says (after owner said pay insurance or stop loaning) that she was now going to look for a horse for herself because if she has to pay all these costs she may as well do it for her own (fair enough no its own), also happy to carry on current arrangement until she finds something (i.e still not pay insurance).

Just over week ago loaner finds a horse and texts owner to say 'found horse having vetted friday (today) is it ok to pass horse back to you then?'. Owner by this point p*ssed off big style so says yes fine even though dumping her at beginning of winter when hardest to find new loaner as just not liking the loaners attitude.

Beginning this week loaner texts owner this time to say 'plans changed is it ok for you to take back wednesday?'. owner purposefully doesn't reply as feels loaner should at least ring. Owner hears no more. Wednesday arrives, another text saying 'just checking its ok for you to take horse abck today' owner replies actually no its rather inconvient and would prefer would stick to origonally agreed day of Friday. loaner replies that owner knows she has plans (which she didn't) and couldn't get to yard. Owner replies no didn't know had plans and suggest you ask YO to put on Full for two days (which YO does happily and would cost loaner all of £10!). Loaner says no horse owners responsibility now she given a months notice (err no technically you given either 28 days if using the VERY ambiguous letter or 12 days if from day she gave exact date). Owner not wanting to stoop to slanging match just replied saying she couldn't believe how unreasonable she was being. Owner took horse back yesterday.

To add to the cheek of this loaner she left all her own stuff infront of the horse's stable as she couldn't be bothered to move it before going on a couple days holiday. (this we moved to the closest out of way place yesterday without expending too much effort)

The horse she is planning to get is being vetted today if it passes it's coming straight to the yard (we all on same yard btw if you not already figured that!) it 'seems' though she is getting a stable on the bottom yard which is just as well as think owner will fly off handle when she sees her. The loaner NEVER picked up the phone to talk to the owner, for all she knew the owner could have been away up to friday when agreed as well!

So yes I can't believe this woman and I don't plan on being anything other than civil to her after this (those on yard who know full facts are in complete agreement). She has clearly taken advantage of the owner (who knows should have drawn up a proper contract) used the horse for all sorts of things over the summer months when it was cheap (out 24/7) but as soon as winter has arrived has dumped horse back on owner with actual minimal notice ( first letter not really offical notice as no termination date given!) and made minimal effort. Add when taking back stuff yesterday the horse's tack is revolting and doesn't looked to have been cleaned at all. His posh show bridle looks appalling though hopefully nothing some proper TLC can't sort out. and just the rest of his stuff in general hasn't been looked after and most certainly not returned in the same condition it left the owner.

I'm seething and it's not even my horse, owner needs to vent some serious frustration. YO is in agreement its all out of order but can only interfere so much and she is still letting her bring new horse on to yard (if it passes) as i presume its all income at the end of the day.

So yeah its not just us is it? to me this behaviour is completly out of order. For starters wouldn't you expect to pay insurance on a loan horse that you effectively in every way other than legal ownership treat as your own?!?!?!

I'm just waiting to see if the horse passes now and I don't want to be around when owner next sees the now ex loaner as I don't think it will be pretty language wise!!

Katie

 

[happyhack]

un-believable. this girl doesnt deserve a horse.

hope karma serves her!!!

 

[Tia]

Nope sorry, as owner of any horses I have loaned out, I have always held and paid for the insurance of my horse.

Shame it has come to this but really what's 2 days? Not really worth kicking up a stink in my opinion, but then I am always happy to get my horses back if something crops up.

 

[Nailed]

hey. just got a horse on 'loan' whose ownership will be past to me in 5 months.
i pay everything.. including todays vet fee.. lol.
it is digusting. i have always loaned horses and usually get dumped on but thi is a serious predicament,
lou x

 

[the watcher]

As an owner with horses out on loan over the years I have always covered the insurance, the only way I could be sure that I would get the payout if it all went wrong and the only way to be certain that the horse is adequately covered.

I am surprised your friend let it get to this is she is on the same yard but equally the loaner must have some front!

 

[Santa_Claus]

no there was no reason for big fuss hence why owner took back on wednesday rahter than continuing argument.

Main thing with insurance is that it went up when she started loaning him due to increased activity but she refused to pay anything of it! I personally if loaning pay the insurance (as I do now with Fleur) as I feel as I am basically acting as if Fleur is my own horse and all the activities i partake in I am paying incase of incident not the owner as she is my responsibility.

Its more the attitude that gets me not the two days. She never picked up a phone to speak in person and never checked it was ok for owner to take back on wednesday. What if owner had been away/uncontactable. There were no instructions beyond Tuesday as to his care and he would have been effectively abandoned (although YO would have ensured was looked after but then there would from current behaviour have been an issue as to who paid that huge £10!!!!!).

Owner is happy to get horse back as well as she has seen horse just not looking as happy as he could and also she has seen the state of her stuff.

A lot more also comes from the fact it seems far worse as his previous loaner was just perfect in terms of how loaners can be, just a shame she had to give up riding in the first place

 

[Santa_Claus]

well this is why there was meant to be an agreement that insurance stayed with current company. Policy would stay in owners name but loaner was to pay owner the cost of the premium each month. This is what I currently do for Fleur. Policy in name of owner and I pay her £xx each month to cover the policy cost.

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
wouldn't you expect to pay insurance on a loan horse that you effectively in every way other than legal ownership treat as your own?!?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope - sorry.

I have a horse on loan - pay for everything - wouldn't dream of paying for it's insurance.

Also, even though this is an unfortunate situation, with things turning a little sour - but the loaner has hardly 'dumped' the horse. She informed the owner that she was going to purchase her own. Has done that (bar vetting) and returned the loan horse.

Two parties couldn't agree on liability for insurance payments or the day of return of horse. What's the big deal??

 

[burtie]

The girl who loans Hannah pays her insurance(back to me), but it is a policy in my name so I know it's paid and valid. She is mentioned on the policy as the loanee.

But then I primarily insure only for vets fees, the mare is actually valued very low.

 

[Tempi]

i was under the impression that the person who the horse belonged to paid the insurance and the loaner paid an amount for the horse each month plus its keep whilst in loaners care? In my share agreement with blossy's sharer i pay insurance and they pay me a monthly sum. I know sharing and loaning are different but i do think the person the horse belongs to pays the insurance.

 

[Baileysno1]

My vetran is on loan and the loaner pays his insurance, but we did both sign a contract. It sounds as though this loaner has been a nightmare and obiously doesn't care that much for the horse. Contracts all the way though, would've saved the carry on.

 

[Santa_Claus]

yes she gave notice all of 11 or 28 days (which ever way you look at it) not over a month as she is claiming! Again I know there was no written contract but I wouldn't dream of returning Fleur to owner's care without minimum of a months notice even though it is on a friendly relationship which stems from fact Fleur's owner is my housemate!! Friday was fine owner didn't have problem with friday (as said she at this point just wanted horse back) but just how with 2 days notice she told infact to pass back wednesday which was never confirmed and then on wednesday she had no choice whatsoever now that to me is dumped!

Round here everyone normally pays for the insurance (via paying back owner) must be concentrated round Devon LOL

 

[AmyMay]

Well, it's all done now. No point getting all het up about it. Just put it all down to experience.

 

[Tia]

[ QUOTE ]
Main thing with insurance is that it went up when she started loaning him due to increased activity but she refused to pay anything of it!

[/ QUOTE ]
I've never asked any of my loaners to pay for insurance and have never wanted nor expected them to pay for it. The horse belongs to me and ultimately I am responsible for it, therefore for my own peace of mind I will always hold the insurance.

[ QUOTE ]
What if owner had been away/uncontactable. There were no instructions beyond Tuesday as to his care and he would have been effectively abandoned (although YO would have ensured was looked after but then there would from current behaviour have been an issue as to who paid that huge £10!!!!!).


[/ QUOTE ]

If I was away then I would make arrangements for someone to look after my horse, and I would pay the £10.

[ QUOTE ]
Owner is happy to get horse back as well as she has seen horse just not looking as happy as he could and also she has seen the state of her stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can understand some people might have an issue with tack being returned in not such good a condition, but again it doesn't bother me. I've loaned out tack many a time, and I always expect it to come back looking worse, LOL!! And it usually does.

 

[Santa_Claus]

Loaner paid for all livery bills (minimal up to mid/late october as was out 24/7), shoes and feed and was 'meant' to also pay nominal amount for priviledge of loaning horse (suppose techincally therefore a lease!) in addition to insurance money to owner monthly. But as said the insurance amount never surfaced due to misunderstanding. Owner chased a couple times to be told loaner at first couldn't afford to pay it and then that she wouldn't at all and was again claiming poverty about a month back saying how difficult winter will be, which leads to another point of how suddenly acn she affor her own horse which apparently is a nice basic schoolmaster type which won't have been exactly cheap!?!?

argh i know its not me involved but the owner is a good friend and this has left her stressed to say the least, she at the best of times can't afford to have him back especially in winter, and its going to be hard to find a new loaner at this time of year, she has one possible but has to see how that goes at mo.

 

[bellasmum]

I agree with Tia on this one, I have always paid the insurance! But the rest is not very nice though!

 

[the watcher]

On a more positve note, I have just got one back from loan, bathed and preened for collection and with two brand new rugs as he had shredded the ones he went with....and beautifully schooled

I think your friend has just been unlucky this time

 

[Tia]

[ QUOTE ]
she at the best of times can't afford to have him back

[/ QUOTE ]

I do feel sorry for the owner, but perhaps if she can't afford her horses then she should perhaps consider selling them to someone who can?

 

[Santa_Claus]

tack being worse yes as obviously been used more and aged but returned postively filthy and probably not been cleaned in months?! i hope not!

[ QUOTE ]
If I was away then I would make arrangements for someone to look after my horse, and I would pay the £10.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree but my point was more what if owner had been away and had never received text messages and had therefore not known horse was expected to be back in her care two days earlier? the horse would have been effectively in no ones care until owner returned. I know this isn't the case but it could have easily have been and yard rules state only owners/loaners can muckout/bring in etc their own horses we can not 'help out' with anyone elses.

I know i shouldn't get so het up as nothing to do with me but this women's complete disregard for the horse concerned just shocks me! Perhaps i'm just too much of an honest person as I would never dream of doing anything she has done!?

 

[FMM]

Loaning should only really be done if the owner can take the horse back at a moments notice. If not, then the horse really ought to be sold as it puts undue pressure on both owner and loaner if things go wrong. It sounds like this loaner was not the most considerate of people. Interesting that she returned the horse before hers passed the vet. I wonder whether there really is another horse in the offing or it was just an excuse to get rid of this one quickly. You will soon find out if the stable is not filled quickly.

 

[FMM]

Meant to add, telling the owner via a text message was extremely rude. I don't understand how people can think that a text message for relaying this sort of information is acceptable.

 

[Santa_Claus]

if she has to she will but she would far prefer to find a new loaner. The horse has given her so much for which she owes him everything and from past experience she doesn't want to sell unless 100% necessary. The horse is a star and would be great for another novice rider to take on and learn from but as he must stay on yard (again due to past experience) some people arn't keen even though he is a fantastic schoolmaster. some people can't see beyond the fact he is a cob even though he is beautifully schooled and will happily jump round 2ft9 -3ft opens without more than light leg aids.

I know it seems like a mountain out of a molehill situation but I promise you if you were in it yourself it is far from it.

 

[Tia]

Loaning can often have many many draw-backs. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. In this case it is just unfortunate that bad feeling has got in the way.....I suspect both parties are a little to blame here. Things are never that black and white.

If the horse is on the same yard as everyone else, then everyone (including the owner I would have thought) would know that the girl was handing the horse back? Does the owner have other horses on the yard (I think that's what you said??) therefore she would see and be told that her other horse hadn't been done surely?

I really find it difficult to be totally sympathetic. As horse owners, we are ALWAYS ultimately responsible for our animals. I just can't see what the big fuss is; and I'm sorry, perhaps I am missing something.

 

[the watcher]

[ QUOTE ]
[
. I know this isn't the case but it could have easily have been and yard rules state only owners/loaners can muckout/bring in etc their own horses we can not 'help out' with anyone elses.

[/ QUOTE ]

what a bizarre rule! why?
Our yard just wouldn't function if we didn't help each other out with poo picking, turning out..I am even clipping for one of the other owners this weekend and i know I could rely on anybody else there to help out with mine.

 

[Tia]

Yes I do agree with you on this - texting is pretty inconsiderate. Although we could take the thought that she knew the owner got the message as owner did reply to at least one of the texts......by text?? Perhaps the owner should have phoned the loaner and sorted it out - as I say the owner is always ultimately responsible for the horse and the loaner did give her written notice.

 

[Santa_Claus]

exactly thats the big thing owner would have been find about most of it if she had had the curtoursey to just pick up the phone to tell her. She had dismissed the insurance matter as it is!

she won't go bankrupt taking horse back it just means other things have to be cut back but as said if came to it either this horse or her other would have to be sold though he would be easiest due to him being a schoolmaster but as mentioned above she wants to avoid selling anything if she possibly can.

Apparently there is a horse as YO has seen it (went to view with ex loaner) and YO will pick it up from vets today if it passes for which loaner is away for !!!!! (wouldn't you want to be at vetting of a new horse if its been vetted within 30miles of you i know I would!)

 

[Santa_Claus]

owner never texted back to original text at beginning of week asking for horse to come back on the wednesday. This was on the belief this would force the loaner to pick up the phone and ring her to ensure it was ok. The first reply from owner was on wednesday itself.

 

[ladylisa]

It does sound as if she has a lot of face to do that and still want to bring a new horse to the yard, she's bound to know she is going to be the talk of the yard lol.
Please let us know how it goes- if horse passes vetting and arrives at the yard! im so nosey!

 

[Tia]

Aww this is getting a little personal - if the loaner can't be at the vetting then that is surely her prerogative? I've sold a number of horses which have been vetted and it hasn't bothered me in the slightest whether the purchaser has been present or not.

So long as the blooming vet is there then that's all that matters, LOL!!

 

[Agent XXX999]

Um – I agree with Tia (LOL there had to be something eventually!)

Paying for the insurance is the one sure fire way of making sure that the horse is going to be covered whatever a loaner manages to do with it.

I could understand that if the horse was on a different yard it is bang out of order to drop it back off, however as the ned is on the yard I cant really see the problem, apart from the financial one.

As for your tack did no-one think to say anything whilst she was loaning? I never give loan people my nice tack, if they want it they can blinking well pay for it like I had too! They get the basics (GP saddle and bridle, a few rugs) and if they need anything else they can come and ask for it or pay for their own money…

However I would def advise that a loan contract is drawn up next time so you are not put in this situation. I would be p*ssed off too, but kicking myself more than the loaner. I do agree that she is out of order but if she is on your yard the agreement sound all a bit informal for your own good – I have found (at my cost!) that informalities, even with ‘friends’ lead to rows and fallings out.

Good luck finding a new loaner – shouldn’t take too long, even in winter. Have you considered getting a couple of sharers (therefore still having ‘control’ over your horse)