Cant help him no more

[Goldenstar]

oh be careful trecayann what did the vet say about the low sugar diet ? Why don't you post a new thread with low sugar and aggression in title and see what that brings in from people who have been there and have not been following this thread. Good luck

 

[Natch]

Do let us know how you get on. And please, I don't think it is OTT for you to only handle him with a hat, gloves and body protector on, And with another human with you, and no exceptions. Best of luck, I do hope this helps turn him around, and if not at lest you will know you have tried everything.

 

[ladyt25]

traceyann, you're very brave but do be careful. I completely understand how you feel and, to be honest if you feel it's not right yet then it probably isn't - trust your instinct. What I would say though is watch how your herd dynamic goes. Ours are a very tight herd and will still treat one of 'theirs' as a stranger again if they've been away for a few days BUT if they segregate him for any longer than would be normal, take note as it may indicate that they feel there is something not right with him.

Ours did it to our old horse when he went very lame at one stage. They were horrid to him and i think it must have been down to their instincts telling them he was not fit and hence would (if they were wild anyway) put the herd at risk from predators. It was not nice, they really pushed him out. But do watch them - they are very good indicators.

 

[Cortez]

My problem is im gutless i just couldnt do it. I do understand the risk so far iv had many with him but this really last chance saloon for him.

You are the very opposite of gutless! Thank you for giving this poor horse one last chance; I have the twin of him here at home (rescued Spanish nutcase, 15hh, lovely to ride, not safe on the ground, currently giving me lots of fun - I have him 5 years; only put me in the hosp twice!). We're going to dressage competition at the weekend (he's Cortez; my avatar)

 

[templewood]

Iv given my little boy one last chance [ I think my family have disowned me or their going to have me sectioned ] Im going down the sugar free diet although i do not think this will help. I just couldnt bring myself to put a such a young horse down. Hes been a bit of a handfull after the vets so hopeing he gonna calm down soon. This is his very last chance my other horses have kicked him out of the herd at the moment in disgrace i think. And my cob watching like a hawk. just waiting for an excuse Im never going to handle this horse without my cob near in the field hopefully he will keep me safe. I want to thank everyone for their help and kindness and every one who pm me their support.

If you are going down the diet route then don't give him any haylage, alfalfa, anything with sugar or molasses in or barley. Most chops are made with alfalfa, so none of those. My PRE stallions are fed Hay, Fast Fibre (Allen & Page) and Brewers Yeast. They look really well on it. They aren't on lush pasture either and are stabled at night. Make sure that you keep to a strict routine if possible so that he has no excuse to get stresed. Did your vet check for stomach ulcers? I imagine he would have.
As other posters have said be very careful. I hope it is diet related, but it might have started out that way and now become behavioural.
PRE's really don't think quite like other horses and are super intelligent. They respond very well to being praised verbally for good behaviour. Mine all understand 'no' and stop whatever they are doing when I say it, even eating, so it might be worth teaching him that if possible. I wouldn't try the 'pressure until they give in' thing. It makes them rear in my experience.

Good luck. I hope he improves. I understand how you feel about him. He trusts you and you feel you would be betraying that by having him PTS, but it isn't you that would be betraying him, it's whoever made him like this.

 

[traceyann]

Iv been trying this no sugar diet for a week now havent notice change yet. In fact we had mass explosion yesturday he reared and caught my shoulder. lucky enough nothing broken just a big cut but aleast he only reared once normally its constant until he gets to his stable so maybe things are improving.

 

[skint1]

I really feel for you, hope it works out for you

 

[rockysmum]

Sorry in advance for this post, I know you have the very best intentions.

BUT you are wrong IMO, very wrong.

This is a dangerous horse which has injured more than one person. OK if he kills or cripples you its your own choice. What if he does this to someone else, or another animal.

I doubt if your insurance would cover you for third party risks (if they know) so if someone sues, how will you pay. If I was to risk assess this horse it would probably have to be kept in an enclosure like at a zoo, not in a field where it could escape or someone could wander in. I dont think you could escape liability as you are totally aware of what he is capable of.

What if he need emergency vet treatment, would your vets be prepared to deal with him on your own property. If he was badly injured or in pain he could be a lot worse.

And what happens to him if you cant look after him, for example you end up in hospital, will you expect your family to take the risks.

I'm another for never putting a healthy horse down, but this would have to be an exception.

 

[millikins]

I feel so sorry for you Traceyann but if this animal were a dog, this discussion wouldn't be happening. You would not have to make any heartbreaking decisions because the police would probably do it for you.

 

[Oberon]

In addition to the Fast Fibre and Brewer's Yeast, I would also add magnesium to the diet.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAGNESIUM...r_Equipment&hash=item415c9d1548#ht_1296wt_952

And possibly something for digestion
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/L-GLUTAMI...r_Equipment&hash=item3f0d400ce4#ht_1442wt_905

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/YEA-SACC-...ar_Equipment&hash=item3f0e7dc0f7#ht_924wt_952

 

[templewood]

I wondered if you have tried leading him in a serreta. If he came form Spain he would understand it and respect it as long as nobody has been cruel. Does he have a scarred nose? It does have to be properly fitted and used. I don't know how you got on with James and Emma at Esperanza Dressage, but they would be able to give you lessons in its use. It might be worth booking a lesson with them anyway to give you some tips on handling Spanish horses on the ground and some in hand work, not with your horse perhaps. They are very calm and patient and it might boost your confidence. If you met a few more Spanish horses it would help you to understand how they react to situations. They are frequently taught to rear on command and yours might have been taught this either on purpose or inadvertently. You could possibly be giving him the signal withput realising it.
I have a mare that was used for vaquera work. When I mounted and turned her she half reared and turned on her hocks to face the other way. I thought she was being naughty, but learned later that they are taught to do this and I had asked her without knowing it.
A Spanish horse will sometimes get itself in a state if it doesn't understand what you want it to do, whereas another horse would probably just not do it!

 

[traceyann]

Yes i have tried serrate and to say he wasnt good is understatement he hates any pressure on his nose or head he has marks on his nose and i think they try to twitch his ears as he has mark on them as well the only thing i can use is a head collar. The rearing i can deal with its the full pelt bolt at me then rearing and boxing i cant this is not a trained rear this is a panic im gonna kill you before you hurt me rear. And im not that fast anymore to be honest i dont think iv ever been that fast.Most would say take a whip and protect yourself but i do believe i would get hurt before i even raised it. Hes still a bit hyper after the vets so im trying to give him time to settle. The other day was my fault i got hurt i sneezed and you cant with him.

 

[brown tack]

God I really do worry about you with him, he reared because you sneezed and again hurt you.

What will happen if you cough I wonder?

 

[FionaM12]

You "can't" sneeze? Aren't there times when you can't avoid sneezing?

 

[Spring Feather]

I have never owned an Iberian horse but I know they are somewhat different from many other horses possibly in part due to the way they are managed as youngsters in Spain/Portugal. It sounds like there are many knowledgable Iberian horse owners on this thread who sound like they are giving out very good advice. It's a shame none of them are near OP as it is starting to sound more like a handling issue to me. Are any of the Iberian owners on this thread close enough to go and lend a hand?

 

[FionaM12]

its the full pelt bolt at me then rearing and boxing

this is a panic im gonna kill you before you hurt me rear.

And im not that fast anymore to be honest i dont think iv ever been that fast.

Most would say take a whip and protect yourself but i do believe i would get hurt before i even raised it.

The other day was my fault i got hurt i sneezed and you cant with him.

All the above statements seriously worry me. You don't want to pass him onto anyone else (which I do understand), but you clearly feel very unsafe yourself, from the above.

This sounds like a very severely damaged, frightened horse. It might be a kindness to both of you to take the pts option after all, or at least bring in someone who's confident at handling him, as Springfeather suggests.

 

[Dancing Queen]

You obviously love your horse deeply.
I admire your determination to help him out.

I really do hope that you can get someone to get to the root of his problems and hopefully put him on the road to 'recovery'

This is not going to be sorted overnight, but i wish you both the very best of luck. xxx

 

[rhino]

OP; it's quite easy to lose focus of the 'bigger picture' when you are putting everything you have into sorting out a specific 'problem'.

Can you take a step back, re-read what you have written. Pretend that it was written by a friend of yours, one you care a lot about. What would you do to advise your 'friend' in the situation? Would you want him/her to continue knowing full well they could end up seriously injured?

My 'bloody-mindedness' is wont to get me into trouble at times. Mostly when I'm too close to the problem.

Stay safe

 

[Leg_end]

I'm sorry but OP, this horse is clearly dangerous and needs to be PTS before he kills someone. How would you feel if someone came into your field and he attacked them?

 

[Marydoll]

Go with your instincts. Yes, PRE's are different (I have had one for 3 years) and yes a good Iberian trainer who has worked for a decent time in Spain/Portugal is a good way to go to get guidance but it sounds like it might be too late. Late cut geldings will always retain a level of stallion behaviour and must always be treated as such. The reason that they are so well behaved in Spain/Portugal is that they are not allowed to get away with anything!

However, Richard Maxwell has experience of Iberians, he took on a problematic Luso stallion with good success. You may want to give him a call.

If at the end of the day PTS is the way to go, then well done for being tough enough to make this decision.

Deffo try Max, he has worked well with spanish horses ibefore

 

[TallulahBright]

I really feel for you but think that maybe your heart's ruling your head. I can't imagine what you must be going through but I know that being around my horse keeps me sane and staves off work related stress- if she were to behave like this and scare me so much, I don't think I could deal with it at all. An earlier poster said it all for me- if this were a dog you wouldn't give it a second thought. Take care x

 

[traceyann]

Sadly he has a mass fear of sneezing or anything that rattles like a zip keys in pocket even a crisp packet dont know why. He is getting better at this But the sneeze caught me unaware and was loud and it scared him. I read this im making excuse after excuse for him im so stupid and people our right if he was a friends horse i would tell her to put him to sleep.

 

[brown tack]

Sadly he has a mass fear of sneezing or anything that rattles like a zip keys in pocket even a crisp packet dont know why. He is getting better at this But the sneeze caught me unaware and was loud and it scared him. I read this im making excuse after excuse for him im so stupid and people our right if he was a friends horse i would tell her to put him to sleep.

So what are you going to do?

 

[JingleTingle]

This is such a sad thread - and I am so worried about you traceyann - keep logging on to see if you have made any final decisions. It is not my place or anybody else's for that matter to tell you what to do with your own horse. But for once I am going to ignore my usual golden rule, this horse needs PTS for his own sake let alone to keep you and anybody who comes into contact with him safe too.

He is too badly damaged, probably through no fault of his own, not all abused horses can be re-habed - if he has ever been abused and isnt just a plain bad 'un? To say no horse is born bad is not a statement I agree with, maybe your poor boy is? Whatever the reason the risk level is far too high IMO.

 

[Ladyinred]

My advice comes from a different perspective, and one that might help you to think this through.

If you were your horse, would you want to live with the constant terrors he seems to have? Is this life fair on him.. let alone the danger aspect to you. If anything happens that he really hurts you and you are unable to control the decisions, what will become of him? You have absolutely no guarantee that anyone will follow your wishes as if you are hurt then th people closest to you will have every excuse to really hate him.

If he was just a scared horse who couldn't cope with everyday life then maybe he could be turned out and nothing more asked of him. But this is a different scenario, his breed dictates that realistically you can't leave him in a field, and even if you did then there are still times when he would have to be handled, ie farrier and vet.

Something in his past has caused him a major trauma that makes him act dangerously. Note I don't say aggresively.. for I don't believe this is directed at you'' all his actions are born of pure panic.

Look at things from this view and ask yourself, if you were in his shoes would you prefer to go quietly to sleep and be at peace or would you prefer to live with your fears eating away at you daily?

 

[crabbymare]

Sadly he has a mass fear of sneezing or anything that rattles like a zip keys in pocket even a crisp packet dont know why. He is getting better at this But the sneeze caught me unaware and was loud and it scared him. I read this im making excuse after excuse for him im so stupid and people our right if he was a friends horse i would tell her to put him to sleep.

You are far from stupid so don't think that
Its a horrible place to be in when you try so hard with horses and especially when you obviously think so much of him as you do. Would be so much easier if you could trace his history back and find out where it all went wrong as it would help you know in your mind that there is nothing you can do. I am far from a pts for any reason person and have dealt with a horse that was dangerous before but yours sounds so frightened and unhappy in his head if he cannot even handle you sneezing after all you have done with him.
PLEASE don't get yourself hurt, if he keeps behaving like this much longer it is going to happen and I would hate to think of what would happen if you were to be in a position where you had been hurt and he got loose.

 

[Fools Motto]

My advice comes from a different perspective, and one that might help you to think this through.

If you were your horse, would you want to live with the constant terrors he seems to have? Is this life fair on him.. let alone the danger aspect to you. If anything happens that he really hurts you and you are unable to control the decisions, what will become of him? You have absolutely no guarantee that anyone will follow your wishes as if you are hurt then th people closest to you will have every excuse to really hate him.

If he was just a scared horse who couldn't cope with everyday life then maybe he could be turned out and nothing more asked of him. But this is a different scenario, his breed dictates that realistically you can't leave him in a field, and even if you did then there are still times when he would have to be handled, ie farrier and vet.

Something in his past has caused him a major trauma that makes him act dangerously. Note I don't say aggresively.. for I don't believe this is directed at you'' all his actions are born of pure panic.

Look at things from this view and ask yourself, if you were in his shoes would you prefer to go quietly to sleep and be at peace or would you prefer to live with your fears eating away at you daily?

Very good point.
I. along with others on this thread consider the horse to be suffering, and as a horse owner we all know what we'd do when our cherished equines suffer.
He doesn't want to live anymore by the stories you have told. I do feel for you though, technically a healthy horse in body, sadly not a healthy horse in mind.
Make the call, be brave, we are all with you. x

 

[Queenbee]

OP, I have read every post on this thread, and I really do feel for you and your horse who is obviously very damaged, no one has to tell you what you have written, and I think you know what your decision will be finally, I know its hard and if he is PTS you will be heart broken but from what I am reading you will probably feel a great deal of relief for him and for you, he will never have to deal with the extreme emotions, triggers and fears that are causing such blind panic and anger again. You have done so much and tried so much, when you do make the decision to PTS which I think you will, have no regrets hun, you have given more chances than most x

 

[templewood]

Yes i have tried serrate and to say he wasnt good is understatement he hates any pressure on his nose or head he has marks on his nose and i think they try to twitch his ears as he has mark on them as well the only thing i can use is a head collar. The rearing i can deal with its the full pelt bolt at me then rearing and boxing i cant this is not a trained rear this is a panic im gonna kill you before you hurt me rear. And im not that fast anymore to be honest i dont think iv ever been that fast.Most would say take a whip and protect yourself but i do believe i would get hurt before i even raised it. Hes still a bit hyper after the vets so im trying to give him time to settle. The other day was my fault i got hurt i sneezed and you cant with him.

I have experienced the pelting towards you and stopping and rearing many times with colts. Sometimes with spinning and kicking out too. They apparently think it's fun! I haven't met your horse so don't know if it's the same, but I shout, growl and wave the leadrope at them before they get anywhere near me. You have to make yourself look as large as possible. They need to learn that it isn't acceptable behaviour. Obviously yours has never been taught not to do it, or has found that he frightens people and gets the upper hand.

I don't think this is a problem that you can sought out, as he knows that you are frightened of him and I think it would be dangerous. You need someone who is experienced with Iberians. Watch some of the Hemfling videos on Youtube and you will see that there are people who can help. I seem to remember that Jenny Rolfe helped someone with an aggressive stallion, so it might be worth contacting her. He would probably soon be a completely different horse with experienced handling, but I am afraid that he will hurt you the way things are going.