Can't improve horses's feet

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nato

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My horse has weak feet, prone to cracks, and thrush. Since moving her out of her previous yard where the beds were partly to blame, the thrush has definitely become more manageable, I'm able to keep on top of it. But her dry brittle feet, not so much. She is given biotin in her diet and I use cornucrescine, she is seen by the farrier every 6 weeks (8 max) but they still seem to crack regardless.

She is shod all round, and is fed on a diet of molassed beet pulp, coarse mix (cool and easy) and chaff. And of course her biotin.

I'm wondering is it worth looking into her diet? Or should I look into another farrier? I've always found mine great, he does a great job of filing back the cracks and the shoes fit great, but he always shoes her when I'm at work so haven't had a chance to talk to him.
 
No horse even with good feet is allowed to go more than five weeks shod here .
It's far to long to leave a horse shod eight weeks .
This will be a huge part of your issue .
You also should use a more broad spectrum supplement formulated with feet in mind
Farriers formula , formula4feet pro feet there are lots I use the forage plus performance balancers .
I would overhaul the horses diet speedibeet or similar in place of the standard beet no coarsemix instead oats and micronised linseed and a non molassed chaff.
 
Goldenstar said:
No horse even with good feet is allowed to go more than five weeks shod here .
It's far to long to leave a horse shod eight weeks .
This will be a huge part of your issue .
You also should use a more broad spectrum supplement formulated with feet in mind
Farriers formula , formula4feet pro feet there are lots I use the forage plus performance balancers .
I would overhaul the horses diet speedibeet or similar in place of the standard beet no coarsemix instead oats and micronised linseed and a non molassed chaff.
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Thank you - she is done every 6 weeks, 8 weeks max is for when she is in light work. I will keep it in mind though.

She is already on biotin hoof supplement. I will look into replacing some of the foods you've suggested.

Thanks sychnant - is too much sugar a contributor to poor feet?

Should I maybe look towards a barefoot diet?
 
nato said:
Thank you - she is done every 6 weeks, 8 weeks max is for when she is in light work. I will keep it in mind though.

She is already on biotin hoof supplement. I will look into replacing some of the foods you've suggested.

Thanks sychnant - is too much sugar a contributor to poor feet?

Should I maybe look towards a barefoot diet?
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It is worth looking at the "barefoot diet" is is appropriate for ALL horses not just those working without shoes, I believe biotin is not going to help as most horses are not deficient in it, the high sugar content of her feed is probably the cause of her poor quality feet, a change of diet should make a difference, far more than putting products on the outside to encourage growth will ever do, it should also help get the thrush sorted.
 
be positive said:
It is worth looking at the "barefoot diet" is is appropriate for ALL horses not just those working without shoes, I believe biotin is not going to help as most horses are not deficient in it, the high sugar content of her feed is probably the cause of her poor quality feet, a change of diet should make a difference, far more than putting products on the outside to encourage growth will ever do, it should also help get the thrush sorted.
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Thank you be positive - does anyone have any good links where I can do a bit of research on this? There is a talk on equine nutrition in my area next week which I am going to, and I will talk to my YO too, I just like to be in the know myself rather than relying on others.
 
When I got my chestnut mare her feet weren't terrible, but weren't great. I had her back shoes off straight away (and lucky I did as she has a kick in her!) and she had a little difficulty on a stony track near us.

I changed everyone's feed to Thunderbrook, as I wanted something with no sugar, alfalfa, soya etc for my very itchy pony, and it seemed sensible for them all to have it.

A year later I was discussing taking chestnut's front shoes off with my farrier, trying to decide what boots to buy her for hacking, and asking how quickly farrier could come back to refit fronts if she was not happy - based on how she was when her backs came off.

I think the farrier thought I was being a panicky horse mum to be honest, and you know what - he was right. He took the shoes off, did a gentle trim and watched her walk and trot up. Not a single wince! Her feet have improved so much over the course of the year that she really didn't notice the shoes were off!

I know a year is a long time - I'm sure her feet had improved long before that, but I spent a long time debating taking the shoes off. I probably could have done it a lot earlier!

I know your post was not asking about going barefoot, but I just wanted to tell you my experience of cutting the crap and fillers out of her diet and how it's improved her feet.

(Itchy pony is notably better on this diet as well. Not cured, but a lot happier!)
 
nato said:
Thank you - she is done every 6 weeks, 8 weeks max is for when she is in light work. I will keep it in mind though.

She is already on biotin hoof supplement. I will look into replacing some of the foods you've suggested.



Thanks sychnant - is too much sugar a contributor to poor feet?

Should I maybe look towards a barefoot diet?
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A barefoot diet is simply a good healthy diet ,sugar coated foods are not healthy for humans or horses .
While biotin is a hoof supplement it's my experiance that it's no match for a proper broad spectrum supplement or balancer made up with feet in mind .
The shoeing at five weeks is to keep the foot balance optimal ,from the day the horse is shod the foot grows and the hoof balance of course gets worse the things you see in your horses feet are caused by poor growth and horn quality ( diet ) and the pressure but on the foot as the foot grows with the shoe nailed to it that's why we do five week shoeing .
 
sychnant said:
When I got my chestnut mare her feet weren't terrible, but weren't great. I had her back shoes off straight away (and lucky I did as she has a kick in her!) and she had a little difficulty on a stony track near us.

I changed everyone's feed to Thunderbrook, as I wanted something with no sugar, alfalfa, soya etc for my very itchy pony, and it seemed sensible for them all to have it.

A year later I was discussing taking chestnut's front shoes off with my farrier, trying to decide what boots to buy her for hacking, and asking how quickly farrier could come back to refit fronts if she was not happy - based on how she was when her backs came off.

I think the farrier thought I was being a panicky horse mum to be honest, and you know what - he was right. He took the shoes off, did a gentle trim and watched her walk and trot up. Not a single wince! Her feet have improved so much over the course of the year that she really didn't notice the shoes were off!

I know a year is a long time - I'm sure her feet had improved long before that, but I spent a long time debating taking the shoes off. I probably could have done it a lot earlier!

I know your post was not asking about going barefoot, but I just wanted to tell you my experience of cutting the crap and fillers out of her diet and how it's improved her feet.

(Itchy pony is notably better on this diet as well. Not cured, but a lot happier!)
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Thank you, really helpful :) I won't go barefoot anytime soon I don't think, but as you and other posters have said, it is worth looking into the barefoot diet. Her bed and field couldn't be a better surface, it's just cracks that I can't get a handle on. Her holiday for 2 weeks in the field left her with chunks of her hoof missing, in hindsight I probably should have taken the shoes off but I was afraid it would make her feet worse.

I will address her diet as a first port of call, and speak to my farrier too.
 
Ok, a couple of diet-basics for hoof health. The horse needs a whole bunch of nutrients to grow healthy hooves, not just a single one (Biotin). Horn is made of protein, so a diet containing quality protein is important. Most forage will cover the overall protein needs, but is sometimes short in essential amino acids (some of these would be lysine, methionine). Copper and zinc are also important micronutrients to allow the horse to build strong keratin, the protein that hoof horn is made of. Copper and zinc are often short in forage. Horses cannot make their own biotin (a B vitamin), they have to get it from the diet, or absorb it from the gut where bacteria produce it. Most horses living on a forage diet with a healthy gut will probably get enough biotin from the bacteria living there, but some benefit from supplementation. It's only part of the picture though. You'd probably be better off getting a good balancer (i.e. vit&min supplement with decent levels of copper and zinc, plus essential amino acids) to replace the biotin supplement. Some balancers will include biotin as well as vits/mins, so you'll get an all-around package. Swapping the molassed feed for something lower in sugar is also a good idea.
Shoeing intervals shouldn't be measured by how worn the shoes are, but by how much the hoof has grown (out of shape). Since it can't wear off naturally, the hoof gets too long and that can lead to more splitting. If the shoe isn't really worn yet, the farrier can reset the same shoe for a second shoeing cycle. My boy is done every 5 weeks max. I had one 6 week interval this summer, but I could tell it was too long for him. This really depends on the horse's speed of hoof growth though. You may find that in winter you can go longer (slower growth), but in summer you need to have more frequent appointments. I'd have a chat with your farrier. I know many will "put up" with longer shoeing intervals because the owner requests it, but if you ask what they would consider optimal for the horse, they'd probably recommend a shorter interval. If your farrier is good, listen to him.
 
supsup said:
Ok, a couple of diet-basics for hoof health. The horse needs a whole bunch of nutrients to grow healthy hooves, not just a single one (Biotin). Horn is made of protein, so a diet containing quality protein is important. Most forage will cover the overall protein needs, but is sometimes short in essential amino acids (some of these would be lysine, methionine). Copper and zinc are also important micronutrients to allow the horse to build strong keratin, the protein that hoof horn is made of. Copper and zinc are often short in forage. Horses cannot make their own biotin (a B vitamin), they have to get it from the diet, or absorb it from the gut where bacteria produce it. Most horses living on a forage diet with a healthy gut will probably get enough biotin from the bacteria living there, but some benefit from supplementation. It's only part of the picture though. You'd probably be better off getting a good balancer (i.e. vit&min supplement with decent levels of copper and zinc, plus essential amino acids) to replace the biotin supplement. Some balancers will include biotin as well as vits/mins, so you'll get an all-around package. Swapping the molassed feed for something lower in sugar is also a good idea.
Shoeing intervals shouldn't be measured by how worn the shoes are, but by how much the hoof has grown (out of shape). Since it can't wear off naturally, the hoof gets too long and that can lead to more splitting. If the shoe isn't really worn yet, the farrier can reset the same shoe for a second shoeing cycle. My boy is done every 5 weeks max. I had one 6 week interval this summer, but I could tell it was too long for him. This really depends on the horse's speed of hoof growth though. You may find that in winter you can go longer (slower growth), but in summer you need to have more frequent appointments. I'd have a chat with your farrier. I know many will "put up" with longer shoeing intervals because the owner requests it, but if you ask what they would consider optimal for the horse, they'd probably recommend a shorter interval. If your farrier is good, listen to him.
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Thanks - I'll look into a feed balancer with all the above in it. Would the feed balancer contain the same amount of biotin as the one scoop per day she already gets? I thought by supplementing with biotin on its own that it would be more concentrated.
 
My share horse has to have a very low sugar diet due to an intolerance. We feed him an unmolassed grass chaff, Fast Fibre and Saracen Re-Leve. That would be a very similar diet to the one you're feeding but without the sugar and they're all easy to come by. I've noticed his feet have improved too which is a welcome side effect.
 
I made the decision about 5 years ago with the blessing of my farrier for my cob to go barefoot. He lives out 24/7 all year round and only has hay and chaff in the winter and good grass in the summer. His feet were ok shod but the improvement since being barefoot and trimmed every 8 weeks is amazing. He is sound over all ground now but it did take over a year to get him there. All mine are now barefoot and wouldn't go back to shoeing.
 
Shame you thought FfionWhinnie's answer was harsh, because those were my exact words! Cut out the mollassed beet, the crap chaff - in fact the entire lot. Start over with forage forage forage. Micronised linseed, unmollassed chaff (I like graze on as a chaff), fast fibre is good for filling bellies without adding junk, good but not too good grazing and quality hay. Get the farrier out a lot more often, 5-6 weeks maximum at the moment. Once the hooves are sorted you can review depending on horn growth.
 
FfionWinnie said:
Really that diet is a disaster. Sort that and the rest will likely fall into place.
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nato said:
Bit harsh :) We have to learn somewhere! But I take the point on board!
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OP, I was feeding a similar diet until I came on HHO, and realised the error of my ways. Though I didn't post until after I'd made the corrections :).

My horses' foot and skin health have improved dramatically since I ditched the pasture mix and started feeding Pro Hoof, micronised linseed and salt.
 
nato said:
Thanks - I'll look into a feed balancer with all the above in it. Would the feed balancer contain the same amount of biotin as the one scoop per day she already gets? I thought by supplementing with biotin on its own that it would be more concentrated.
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Depends. Have a look at your current biotin product. Many biotin supplements actually also contain some additional vits and mins, but often only a select few rather than covering everything relevant across the spectrum. For example, it's common to find zinc in a biotin supplement, but zinc and copper should always be supplemented together and at a ratio of about 3:1 to try and keep the entire ration balanced.
Once you know how much biotin your current dose contains you can check whether your new balancer of choice has similar levels. If not, shop around or continue with the extra biotin but adjust the dose so the total stays the same. You'd be surprised how many biotin supplements contain mostly filler.
Just some examples - NAF Biotin plus has 15mg/dose (plus some extra zinc and methionine, but no copper or lysine). The daily dose (60g) of Equimins Advance Complete contains 10mg biotin, and the daily dose (75g/one scoop) of Pro Hoof contains 20mg. Both of these last two would be examples that have decent copper/zinc levels, biotin and some essential amino acids. But do shop around and compare labels.
 
You've posted before about suspecting ulcers as well? That would have been the time to immediately change diet as what your currently feeding is not going to be helping feet or tummy one bit. If you do suspect ulcers though be careful using some of the mineral balancers as they can aggravate them.
 
Thanks everyone for your replies, all really helpful. I think it's really clear her diet needs addressing so keep the suggestions and your own experiences coming.

I will have a chat with YO to see what we can do in terms of changing her diet and what I need to get myself. I'm a bit confused as there are so many different diets coming through in this thread, I know that it's a case of trial to see what suits best, but I know I need to get her on the following:

- Micronised Linseed
- Salt
- A good balancer

Can anyone recommend the right 'base' feeds? I had thought about oats over coarse mix, and unmolassed beet pulp. Am I wrong? I don't want to be feeding her too many different things!
 
No mix!

Have a look at Thunderbrook's website, you may not choose to feed it but there's lots of info on there. They are also very helpful and informative if you phone them with questions :)
 
Michen said:
You've posted before about suspecting ulcers as well? That would have been the time to immediately change diet as what your currently feeding is not going to be helping feet or tummy one bit. If you do suspect ulcers though be careful using some of the mineral balancers as they can aggravate them.
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Yes, that was me Michen! Just recently actually. She was turned away for holidays just a week after that so I didn't want to make any drastic changes until she had come back in. She's now just back in this week, hence this thread as I have been seriously considering her diet over the last number of weeks. My suspicion of ulcers or some kind of irritation in that area, along with her feet has made me think now is the right time to overhaul the diet in its entirety, hence the thread :)

Thanks for the tip RE mineral feed balancers. I'll keep it in mind. Feeding is such a minefield!

sychnant said:
No mix!

Have a look at Thunderbrook's website, you may not choose to feed it but there's lots of info on there. They are also very helpful and informative if you phone them with questions :)
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Sorry sychnant, I meant oats INSTEAD of coarse mix :) I'll have a look at that site, thank you!

Thanks everyone for your help, I really do appreciate it. She is my first horse and I adore her, so I'm really trying to do right by her as she is my horse of a lifetime :)
 
I'd dump the Cornucrescine in to the nearest bin! It works by irritating and causing inflammation to the coronary band to stimulate new growth - not nice. This is not the best way to grow a strong foot, and tends to work on only the outermost part of the wall anyway. You would be FAR better off stimulating strong growth through correct diet, as many of the other posters have advised.

Two handy sources of information could be TopSpec feeds, they do a very comprehensive balancer, and have an award winning free advice line - http://www.topspec.com/nutritional-advice/
Also Red Horse Products do a range of hoof care products, all of which are non-necrotising (unlike most traditional brands) so will promote healthy tissue https://redhorseproducts.com/shop-2/hoof-care/

Best of luck!
 
nato said:
Bit harsh :) We have to learn somewhere! But I take the point on board!
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If you want to take it that way, it's not how it was meant. Personally I have and would be thanking god such an easy fix could be all that was needed. We've all fed that or similar at some point.

Diet is everything, for everyone.
 
But it smells SO GOOD!!!!!!! On a serious note I didn't realise that's how it worked. Interesting!



irishcob said:
I'd dump the Cornucrescine in to the nearest bin! It works by irritating and causing inflammation to the coronary band to stimulate new growth - not nice. This is not the best way to grow a strong foot, and tends to work on only the outermost part of the wall anyway. You would be FAR better off stimulating strong growth through correct diet, as many of the other posters have advised.

Two handy sources of information could be TopSpec feeds, they do a very comprehensive balancer, and have an award winning free advice line - http://www.topspec.com/nutritional-advice/
Also Red Horse Products do a range of hoof care products, all of which are non-necrotising (unlike most traditional brands) so will promote healthy tissue https://redhorseproducts.com/shop-2/hoof-care/

Best of luck!
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FfionWinnie said:
If you want to take it that way, it's not how it was meant. Personally I have and would be thanking god such an easy fix could be all that was needed. We've all fed that or similar at some point.

Diet is everything, for everyone.
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I totally agree - and I would be so pleased if I could fix it with her diet. And you're all right, the diet needs to be addressed. I think I just read the word 'disaster' and took it as a reflection on me when I really am trying to learn :)
 
It's a reflection on the feed companies who churn out this rubbish. But then the human food companies do the same.

My horse is intolerant to sugar and starch - like properly intolerant as in could die.

The number of experts from feed companies who have told me a load of junk about their products and how suitable they are for her, is depressing. It's a constant learning curve and the more I learn the better she is.
 
nato said:
Thanks everyone for your replies, all really helpful. I think it's really clear her diet needs addressing so keep the suggestions and your own experiences coming.

I will have a chat with YO to see what we can do in terms of changing her diet and what I need to get myself. I'm a bit confused as there are so many different diets coming through in this thread, I know that it's a case of trial to see what suits best, but I know I need to get her on the following:

- Micronised Linseed
- Salt
- A good balancer

Can anyone recommend the right 'base' feeds? I had thought about oats over coarse mix, and unmolassed beet pulp. Am I wrong? I don't want to be feeding her too many different things!
Click to expand...

It's easy to get confused, especially at first. But trust me, once you get used to a barefoot friendly diet it really is very simple. Although I really think we should call it a horse friendly diet, as it isn't just good for unshod horses!

So, to try and make it simpler:

There are all sorts of base feeds that are high in fibre, low in sugar. If you want something you can soak, reasonable (and easy to source!) options are Speedibeet and Fast Fibre. There are also numerous unmollassed chaffs available, if you want to feed that as well or instead. Some people find their horses are quite sensitive to Alfalfa, though I don't know if this would affect the quality of the hoof. I'd be inclined to leave out the chaff for the time being completely, if I were you. If your horse is a poor doer or needs a bit of extra condition, you could try Coolstance Copra Meal, which you can soak and feed instead of Speedibeet or Fast Fibre. I'm sure there are other options out there, but any of these three (Coolstance Copra, Speedibeet or Fast Fibre) would make a good base feed to start with.

You are right that oats are a good option to provide energy - much better than all these sugar-coated mixes! Micronised linseed and salt, as you've mentioned, will be good additions to your horse's diet.

There are certain balancers that are specially designed to improve hoof quality. Forage Plus and Pro Hoof are the ones I see most frequently recommended and I would think that either would be of great benefit to your horse. Both already contain biotin.

When you say that you will have a chat with your YO, bear in mind that he/ she may not actually know that much about the subject. A lot of very experienced horse-people seem to give very little thought to what their horse is eating.
 
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