Canter transitions up ***** creek without a paddle..........help?

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SpanishNeddy

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Just hoping for some training ideas and help before I resort to getting my trainer to maybe sit on him :-)

Firstly some background:
He (PRE stallion) is 6 years old and I've had him for 18 months now. He has ALWAYS found canter hard, including canter transitions. Although I imported him as a 5 year old, he was pretty much a walk/trot/canter backed horse so he didn't have any real schooling under his belt. He is a big boy, at 16.2HH which is probably part of why he finds it hard (he's a clumsy oaf too bless him!). He also had terrible front feet in Spain, so it's taken time to get those right and whilst this was happening I didn't put on the pressure schooling wise.

Anyway, past 6 months he had really turned a corner with his canter. AMAZING transitions, bang on in fact and canter has been really forward when you got the transition (previously if you did get the transition, the next issue was then keeping him forward.....was like hurling a bus around a school!!). So we were doing fab and I booked us in for another dressage test, I practiced it one Sunday and he was perfect :-) I then booked a lesson with a list 1 judge for the following day (who is based on my yard - very lucky) to practice my test......then this is when it all fell apart :-( I was all excited about my lesson, as the aim was to run through my test and perfect it! but we totally lost the canter transitions, he was all in a tizz, I was in a tizz, he kept running and wouldn't canter, it was an unexpected nightmare! Firstly we thought he was just being a stubborn stallion as I had left the school gate open (he likes to dream of finishing schooling and heading back for hay usually!) but it has continued since.

We still went to do our dressage test a few days later, as he is much more forward at shows, so i thought it would be resolved once we went out. But it was awful! well walk and trot was gorgeous and he tried super hard and felt amazing but canter was.....ughhhh! test sheet was better than I would have given us seeing as he wouldn't canter on the right rein!!!!! (even in the warm up he was being silly). So, it seems the right rein is the issue. Over the following week both myself and his sharer have had the same issue.....he is going off on the wrong leg right rein canter.....STILL! I have lunged him a couple of times since to see if he's the same without a rider.....and he is. Last night out of about 15 canter transitions right rein he got 2! he doesn't look lame at all, and his trot and walk is nice.

So, right rein wrong lead leg seems to be his issue with and without rider! he doesn't look lame but is getting in a tiz over it so maybe he has twinged himself and that's why he wants to strike off with wrong lead leg? yard have told me he has been playing a lot on the field and he is SUPER clumsy usually.
It is not saddle, this was done few months ago and I use Kay Humphries! not teeth either, this was done by an equine dentist few months ago (and there were no teeth issues).

Can anyone help or give some training advice on what I can try? I'm finding it really frustrating. I am thinking of getting my trainer to sit on him and see what he thinks, but thought I would seek some tips and advice if anyone can help.

Thanks muchly :-)
 
My first port of call would definitely be a sports masseur/physio seeing as he was perfect until one completely random day, sounds like he has tweaked himself or something, or tight to one side.

I would call them an do lots of stretching and gentle flat work in the meanwhile, no pressure.
 
Morgan123 said:
My first port of call would definitely be a sports masseur/physio seeing as he was perfect until one completely random day, sounds like he has tweaked himself or something, or tight to one side.

I would call them an do lots of stretching and gentle flat work in the meanwhile, no pressure.
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Yes this was something I was thinking too. He had a treatment (sports massage) with another livery based on my yard a few months ago. He did feel better after that. So I will get her to look at him again. I think I was just kind of wondering *why* he had converted I suppose....but it's horses I guess!!
 
He's very cute!! Assuming that's him in the pic.

Well, he could just have tweaked himself messing in the field or stable. It's just the suddeness of the change that would have me thinking it was pain related I think. See how much stretching and flexing you can get him to do in the meanwhile - should help!
 
Morgan123 said:
He's very cute!! Assuming that's him in the pic.

Well, he could just have tweaked himself messing in the field or stable. It's just the suddeness of the change that would have me thinking it was pain related I think. See how much stretching and flexing you can get him to do in the meanwhile - should help!
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He is the black one :-) if that's the one you can see. If you can see a grey one, that is my other horse who is currently on loan at the moment to a friend. It's the black one who is having canter issues :-(

Yes that's what I was worried about, the suddeness of it. Maybe I should get a video of him. I am just a bit worried about putting on a video of him on a forum, in case the whole world wishes to add their 'constructive' comments ;-)
 
Morgan123 said:
He's very cute!! Assuming that's him in the pic.

Well, he could just have tweaked himself messing in the field or stable. It's just the suddeness of the change that would have me thinking it was pain related I think. See how much stretching and flexing you can get him to do in the meanwhile - should help!
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This. I wouldn't even be thinking about any new exercises or trying to rectify it in the school as you may well end up undoing the fabulous transitions you previously had. It sounds far more likely, given the timings, that he has tweaked himself so I'd do nothing until he gets a once over from a decent physio.

Do that and take it from there and hopefully it's just a little niggle that means he'll be right as rain very soon xxx
 
_GG_ said:
This. I wouldn't even be thinking about any new exercises or trying to rectify it in the school as you may well end up undoing the fabulous transitions you previously had. It sounds far more likely, given the timings, that he has tweaked himself so I'd do nothing until he gets a once over from a decent physio.

Do that and take it from there and hopefully it's just a little niggle that means he'll be right as rain very soon xxx
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Thank you very much, makes perfect sense. He is SUPER clumsy, so it is likely he has twinged himself frollocking around in the field or tripping in his stable or something. The lady on my yard is sports massage, she is very good but I think I may get my Osteopath to look at him....do you think Osteo would be better? (Osteo is Liz Oakenfold if you know/hear of her).
 
SpanishNeddy said:
Thank you very much, makes perfect sense. He is SUPER clumsy, so it is likely he has twinged himself frollocking around in the field or tripping in his stable or something. The lady on my yard is sports massage, she is very good but I think I may get my Osteopath to look at him....do you think Osteo would be better? (Osteo is Liz Oakenfold if you know/hear of her).
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Honestly, I'd opt for both...different approaches and different treatments so if I could go for both, I would put them in contact and ask them to work together.
 
If he were mine I would get a physio to see him and help clear up any muscular issues before doing any further investigations - as if still present they might cloud the issue and am always interested in what a physio can feel/where they think there might be issues I might then discuss with vet - who is usually also interested in what they say. My (much!) older lad has gone through periods of time of finding right rein canter very difficult unless jumping - bit of adrenaline helped I think! and physio has always resolved them with a little re-schooling after as it has turned out to be muscular. I think there are arguments for and against doing it either way round but physio first tends to have worked for me.

Are you/sharer straight? Can guarantee if Frank is having issues my back gets tight on one side too and vice versa.
 
As he's a Spanish chap (thus a super sensitive soul), I'd be looking to see that I myself am straight in the transitions: the rider is responsible too, you know!
 
I would also suggest the Physio and if you find any problems which I think is a strong possibility then get those sorted.

Assuming everything is ok I would also say when you ride on the 'bad' rein when you do go into canter make sure you aren't blocking his inside leg with the inside rein when you strike off into canter, it could be something as simple as that I hope.
 
I'd be looking at the feet again, make sure they are actually ok. My horse was so behind the leg when I got him and I could barely get half a 20m circle of canter, he was 7 and had done well at Novice! I took his shoes off and we haven't looked back, he became so much more responsive once his feet were really sorted.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
But if he is having the same problems on the lunge, I would start with the vet.
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This. Had something similar recently, when the horse suddenly became agitated in the canter transitions. We did the 'is it the saddle, is it this, is it that?' thing as horse was apparently sound.

Decided to take horse to vets for check up first, and it was mild PSD in both hinds. Horse is responding well to box rest and controlled exercise, but being PSD, stretches and such like are currently contraindicated as they would only exacerbate the problem.
 
SpanishNeddy said:
maybe he has twinged himself and that's why he wants to strike off with wrong lead leg? yard have told me he has been playing a lot on the field and he is SUPER clumsy usually.
Thanks muchly :-)
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That is what I would be looking into - Try a massage, or a chiro or a few days just straight line hacking or something jolly stretchy not too hard work...
Horses dont 'forget' how to do things like that, sounds like a 'pain' thing to me.
What a shame about your lovely lesson, but another one for you again soon I hope :)
 
Have you tried asking him to canter on a lunge - I did this with my horse who consistently got the wrong leg on the left rein and I was shocked to find that he had the right leg every time. I could only put it down to my position so I altered my position and he goes on the right leg! He is also a 6 yr old and wasn't gelded that long ago - he couldn't canter if we tried to 100 times over each day when I first got him but, i do put that down to him not being broken properly. Damage to lumber regions can also cause the horse to find it hard to get the correct canter lead - this can be caused by a saddle that is too long for a horse's back according to my horse physio. You will get there, I know how frustrating it is though :(
 
Also just to note that many horses trained in Spain (and other overseas locations) are taught to canter with the INSIDE leg (rider's, that is), not the outside leg back that is prevalent over here.
 
If you haven't done it, you could check his back by applying pressure with your hand along his back from front to hindquartes and see if he reacts or if any area raises. The time when he was doing better transitions/more balanced canter, was it after a rest? If so, I think if they are sore somewhere it tends to get better after a rest.
Also, if you can try him in another saddle or have another saddler to check the fit of the one you use that would be a good idea. Reason I say that is my mare kept bunching up and bucking at canter transitions with the saddle Kay Humphries fitted to her, had another saddler out (SMS saddle fitter) and she stopped bucking straight away and had the most balanced canter ever. I think the saddle was sitting too low at the back and that was putting a lot of stress on her loins.
 
_GG_ said:
Honestly, I'd opt for both...different approaches and different treatments so if I could go for both, I would put them in contact and ask them to work together.
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Thank you. The lady who has given him a treatment before was on holiday last week, so will be sorting a treatment out for him this week hopefully. She is Equine Sports Massage and he really felt better last time he had a session. She is based on my yard, so I'll give that a go first. I do also have an Osteopath I use (Liz Oakenfold) who is fantastic. So may get her out as well if the Sports Massage doesn't sort it.
 
Goldenstar said:
If he does not regularly see a Physio my start point would be the vet .
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When I moved him to my new yard (last November 2013) my YM did wonder if he had an issue because he was so clumsy. I can assure you I am not one to not put my horses health first. I got my vet out, he did a lameness work-up and to cut a long story short the diagnosis was = lazy oaf who will improve with schooling pretty much.
 
SpanishNeddy said:
When I moved him to my new yard (last November 2013) my YM did wonder if he had an issue because he was so clumsy. I can assure you I am not one to not put my horses health first. I got my vet out, he did a lameness work-up and to cut a long story short the diagnosis was = lazy oaf who will improve with schooling pretty much.
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Oh I forgot to mention, since this he has improved TONS!!! he went to the Breed Show in July this year and was Reserve Champion Functionality (super proud) so schooling has helped hugely. He NEVER trips like he did a year ago. He sometimes trips in our indoor school, BUT the surface is deep and unlevel and he's fussy with surfaces (because he likes to do as little as possible).
 
ester said:
If he were mine I would get a physio to see him and help clear up any muscular issues before doing any further investigations - as if still present they might cloud the issue and am always interested in what a physio can feel/where they think there might be issues I might then discuss with vet - who is usually also interested in what they say. My (much!) older lad has gone through periods of time of finding right rein canter very difficult unless jumping - bit of adrenaline helped I think! and physio has always resolved them with a little re-schooling after as it has turned out to be muscular. I think there are arguments for and against doing it either way round but physio first tends to have worked for me.

Are you/sharer straight? Can guarantee if Frank is having issues my back gets tight on one side too and vice versa.
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Thank you.

My Sports Massage lady was on holiday last week, so she will hopefully see him this week. He was the same over the weekend (and that included on the lunge as well).

Regarding myself being straight, probably not! but I will be getting a treatment as well. In addition he is doing it on the lunge and with others, so safe to say it isn't us.
 
Cortez said:
As he's a Spanish chap (thus a super sensitive soul), I'd be looking to see that I myself am straight in the transitions: the rider is responsible too, you know!
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Absolutely :-) I am trying hard and he has been super. He is doing it on the lunge and that's never usually an issue. So I think it's safe to say it isn't how we're asking for it.
 
blackhor2e said:
I would also suggest the Physio and if you find any problems which I think is a strong possibility then get those sorted.

Assuming everything is ok I would also say when you ride on the 'bad' rein when you do go into canter make sure you aren't blocking his inside leg with the inside rein when you strike off into canter, it could be something as simple as that I hope.
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Thank you. I have tried super hard to ensure I'm asking him how he has been trained (and how he was performing it perfectly before). So very odd. He was like it all last weekend on the lunge. Out of about 6 right canters he got 1 right leg!

Oh should have said, when I said wrong canter lead leg I mean hind as well as foreleg (if that makes any difference).
 
Pearlsasinger said:
But if he is having the same problems on the lunge, I would start with the vet.
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He doesn't look at all lame though. He is also a horse that is better the more often he is ridden. He is doing less work than he was a few months ago I would say (was doing about 5 times per week, now about 4 times per week but not as hard work as before).
 
Fuzzypuff said:
I'd be looking at the feet again, make sure they are actually ok. My horse was so behind the leg when I got him and I could barely get half a 20m circle of canter, he was 7 and had done well at Novice! I took his shoes off and we haven't looked back, he became so much more responsive once his feet were really sorted.
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Yes this sometimes feels impossible for him as well. It's like hurling a bus around a school sometimes in canter! he is MUCH more forward going in the canter than he used to be though.

Regarding his feet: when I imported him he was very long in the toe with no heel. Very badly shod. His feet are much better now but we have changed them slowly, with no lame days at all. At the beginning we did take his shoes off (for about 3-4 months). But it didn't work, he needs front shoes soon they went. I am not againt barefoot at all, in fact my other PRE is totally barefoot and has been all his life and he's in full competition work. Bt if they need them they need them is my point of view re: shoes.
 
Tiddlypom said:
This. Had something similar recently, when the horse suddenly became agitated in the canter transitions. We did the 'is it the saddle, is it this, is it that?' thing as horse was apparently sound.

Decided to take horse to vets for check up first, and it was mild PSD in both hinds. Horse is responding well to box rest and controlled exercise, but being PSD, stretches and such like are currently contraindicated as they would only exacerbate the problem.
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I hope it is not PSD :-(
I know exactly what that is because my other PRE was diagnosed and treated for this in both hinds.

He does not look lame. His action behind is much better than in front I would say. His movement in walk and trot is good. Canter is fine (always been his weaker pace but he is young, VERY chunky and 16.3HH of body he doesn't know he has got Lol!).
 
Happy Hunter said:
That is what I would be looking into - Try a massage, or a chiro or a few days just straight line hacking or something jolly stretchy not too hard work...
Horses dont 'forget' how to do things like that, sounds like a 'pain' thing to me.
What a shame about your lovely lesson, but another one for you again soon I hope :)
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Thank you - yes exactly. Not him either, he's very clever and willing usually. You can see he gets in a tizz when he gets it wrong on the lunge. It's like he can't use left leg canter lead. He did get it right once over weekend - so I made him go forward. He groaned, moaned and squeeled (which he often does) which could be a relief or pain. Not sure.
 
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