Cany anyone interpret Forage Analysis?

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Grey Haven

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I've got my forage (hay) analysis back for mineral and nutrients and I'm having trouble interpreting it!

Anyone know what they are looking at? I'm waiting for the people who produced it to get back to me.

Thanks - I can email it to anyone who wants to have a look!
 
Hi can you say just a bit of what the report says , is it protein percent, sugar etc , I dont mean post all of just a bit so we can see the type of thing thats on there.
 
Mine was done by Forageplus and they were happy to advise based on what it showed. Can you not discuss with whoever did it? Mine has all the minerals etc listed as low, moderate or high so that it indicates where I might need to consider supplementing.
 
Thanks Jill - Forage plus have done mine too - I'm waiting for them to call me back to chat it through.

Mine have come out percentages or mg per kg...
 
While you're waiting for FP to get back to your....
There's a useful webpage here, that calculates the nutrient requirements for horses: http://nrc88.nas.edu/nrh/
The pre-set values are for your average 500kg horse. Under the "other nutrients" tab, it lists daily "minimum recommended amounts" of some of the minor minerals. You'll see that four important ones (iron, manganese, zinc, copper) are required at 400mg/day each for iron, manganese and zinc, and 100mg/day for copper.
With your analysis, you should have values for those in mg/kg or ppm (those two units are the same). If you know or can estimate how much hay you feed by weight, you can figure out how much of the minerals your horse is getting from forage. For example, assuming your 500kg horse eats hay at 2% bodyweight (=10kg), then with copper levels of e.g. 7mg/kg, your horse would be getting 70mg/day from hay alone. Not enough to cover minimum requirements. The low/med/high bars on the analysis are usually entirely useless.
You can do the same kind of calculation on all the other minerals. It is quite common to find that copper and zinc are below recommended levels, but iron and/or manganese can be many times over the required levels. In that case, you only want to top up copper and zinc, but not add to the iron/manganese. If the ratio between minerals is very unbalanced (e.g. more than 10x the amount of iron vs. copper), it may even be helpful to supplement copper at higher levels than the minimum RDA. This is where forageplus will spend some time working out a bespoke feed plan for you.
But just figuring what's in the amount of hay you feed for each mineral, and checking that against the NRC values is a good starting point to know what is lacking in your forage, and what is present at sufficient or high levels.
Hope that is helpful!
 
Hi all - just had a reply from Sarah at FP - basically my hay is deficient in pretty much EVERYTHING save calcium and iron levels. Also we have high molybdenum which is blocking any update of any trace mineral elements.

All the other horses seem fine on this- but my boy obviously needs a little extra. Copper plays a crucial role in the health of the liver - so therein could lie my liver issues! So they've suggested their Winter Hoof and Skin Balancer as follows:

200 mg copper
600 mg zinc
2.5 grams phosphorous
6 grams magnesium
0.5 grams selenium
1000 iu vitamin E
1.5 grams methionine (but add an extra 1 x 5ml scoop of separate to support the liver whilst your horse is recovering for the next 6 months)
5 grams of lysine (but add extra 1 x 10 ml scoop of separate to support muscles)
1 mg iodine
15 mg biotin
50 mg vitamin B1 thiamine
50 mg vitamin B6 pyridoxine
10 mg folic acid
5 grams salt

It's a bit pricey and I am worried he won't eat it (he's a bit fussy for an native pot-belly!) - I might if they can send a sample before shelling out nearly £70!

I've also looked at similar balancers from Pro Earth (Pro Balance Plus) and I've just emailed Equivita as again their balancers are comparable on paper and somewhat cheaper - although I know that FP use a higher grade (Bioplex?) of minerals.
 
Get your analysis done by an independent lab in future ,why rely on a company that is trying to sell you something. Of course its going to be deficient!!
 
Hi I used to work for a farm vets down in Somerset and there is a big issue in the area where the high levels of molybdenum lock up the available copper in the soil and causes a major deficiency in all livestock and equines. However I would agree going independent is definitely better than using a company trying to sell you their product. I would have though a good balanced GP supplement would be able to make up most deficiencies but would recommend talking to your vet regarding the copper in case something more is needed.
 
Are you feeding any hard feed/balancers/supplements at the minute? I would perhaps recommend a balancer or a good all-in-one supplement (I use TopSpec all in one supplement mixed in to Allen & Page Fast fibre - this is my preference as I also feed salt and herbs and find fast fibre a better carrier). Whilst I fully appreciate using individual minerals/vitamins/herbs the way the minerals all interact together can mean that sometimes adding more of just one mineral can out balance the others and cause issues with absorbing other minerals. Using an all in one will take out the guess work, my only concern would be for the copper due to the fact there is pretty much none so you would be totally replacing it hence checking with your vet.
 
At present he's getting (split between two meals)

1 scoop Thunderbrooks chaff
1 scoop Coligone powder
2 scoops D&H milk thistle

I've just started him Equinox Supplement

MACROELEMENTS
Calcium: .................................................. 45,8 g/kg
Magnesium: ........................................... 1,17 g/kg
Phosphorus: ........................................... 16,1 g/kg
Sodium: .................................................. 24,2 g/kg
MICROELEMENTS
Iron: ........................................................ 70,1 mg/kg
Copper: ................................................... 1,1 mg/kg
Manganese: ......................................... 9,32 mg/kg
Zinc: ...................................................... 67,4 mg/kg
Iodine: ...................................................... 0,90 g/kg
Selenium: ................................................ 50 mg/kg
(incl. selenomethionine and selenocysteine)
VITAMINS*
Vitamin E: .......................................... 17,8 mg/kg
Vitamin B2: ....................................... 7,55 mg/kg
Vitamin B9: ........................................1250 μg/kg
Vitamin B12: ..................................... 36,5 μg/kg
Niacin: .................................................. 215 mg/kg
AMINO ACIDS*
Lysine: ....................................................... 18,7 g/kg
Methionine: .............................................. 3,7 g/kg
Threonine: ............................................ 12,4 g/kg
Cystine: .................................................. 2,3 g/kg
Serine: .................................................... 11,8 g/kg
Proline: ................................................... 10,9 g/kg
Glycine: .................................................. 12,2 g/kg
Alanine: .................................................. 20,3 g/kg
Valine: .................................................... 13,6 g/kg
Leucine: ................................................. 18,6 g/kg
Thyrosine: .................................................. 7,0 g/kg
Phenylalanine: ..................................... 12,3 g/kg
Histidine: ................................................. 6,0 g/kg
Arginine: ................................................ 13,5 g/kg
Aspargic acid: ........................................ 25,7 g/kg
Glutamic acid: ........................................ 31,4 g/kg
OTHER BIOACTIVE SUBSTANCES
Kynurenic acid: .................................. 3,35 μg/kg
Alpha ketoglutarate: ............................ 21 g/kg
Cytrulline maleate: ................................. 25 g/kg
*Macro- and micro-element content may fluctuate
within the +/- 10-20% range
 
I have heard lots of positives about Equinox and if you are feeding at the recommend rate for his size you should be ok. It may be worth giving them a call to discuss your situation as most companies have nutritionists on staff.
 
CharliePonyPops said:
Hi I used to work for a farm vets down in Somerset and there is a big issue in the area where the high levels of molybdenum lock up the available copper in the soil and causes a major deficiency in all livestock and equines. .
Click to expand...

I would be very wary of assuming that it is the same just because you are in the same area as having moved 1/2 mile down the road and seen a massive difference in manganese levels, it doesn't automatically follow.

if you have used forageplus, then the lab they use is sciantec so you have an independent analysis, whether you think the forageplus product is the best to fulfill any deficiencies is another matter.

What you do want with high iron and calcium is a balancer without these as iron (and manganese) also cause problems with copper and zinc uptake

If you're on facebook there's a group on there and they have compared levels of the key minerals in the Equivita, forageplus and progressive earth balancers (and a couple of others)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/BarefootApproach2WholeHorseHealth/?fref=ts

I think Equivita will also make them one to your specs though as said they do use copper and zinc sulphate rather than the bioplex versions.

Alternatively as they have given you a suggestion of what you need to feed, then you could buy the straight minerals and mix your own. #

One word of warning, all of these ones I mentioned are not palatable as they do not have flavourings and sugar added so for a fussy horse you do have to introduce it very very gradually.
 
Ah that's great Criso - I shall join that group and see - I'm guessing the sulphates aren't as good as the Bioplex versions then, hence the difference in price.
 
Grey Haven said:
Ah that's great Criso - I shall join that group and see - I'm guessing the sulphates aren't as good as the Bioplex versions then, hence the difference in price.
Click to expand...

The bioplex versions are supposed to be better but not sure there's any real evidence and the sulphates are less bulky so can be easier to sneak for a fussy eater.

I feed the bioplex versions, I make my own mix up, but I would be pushed to justify why I buy the more expensive ;-)
 
Hi I appreciate your point about areas changing but it is known fact in the Somerset area particularly the Somerset levels and surrounding areas high levels of molybdenum are present locking in the copper and there are issues with deficiency. Whilst Sciantec are a great lab with generally accurate results I suggested being careful because a company can easily manipulate data to suit their purpose, talking this through with a independent nutritionist without an agenda would always be my preference. You could always try Clare MacLeod MSc RNutr (you can find her on facebook or www.equinenutritionist.co.uk - she is at Swindon).
 
CharliePonyPops said:
Whilst Sciantec are a great lab with generally accurate results I suggested being careful because a company can easily manipulate data to suit their purpose, talking this through with a independent nutritionist without an agenda would always be my preference. You could always try Clare MacLeod MSc RNutr (you can find her on facebook or www.equinenutritionist.co.uk - she is at Swindon).
Click to expand...

Having gone through forageplus to get an analysis, they send you the sciantec report direct with no manipulation. You can then have them analyse it, do it yourself if you have the skills or take it someone else like Clare MacLeod.

A friend did contact Sciantec to try and cut out the middleman and see if they could save money but they didn't want to deal with the public direct so you have to go through a company. There was another company advertising on fb that will also send off samples for you but they were about the same price and also use sciantec so nothing to gain.

I would be interested in details of other labs though who will deal direct if it will save me money on the analysis.
 
I work in the ruminant industry mainly cattle and have sent samples to LiveLab in Rutland for feed/silage analysis and have been very pleased with them. I think they would supply the public. Apologies I hadn't realised that they gave you a copy of the results directly from Sciantec, whenever I have received analysis results from a company its always been prettied up with their logo all over it and their bumf accompanying it.
 
Mine had sciantec analytical logo on it. However the numbers don't mean much without someone who understands it and I agree that is very much open to interpretation. Even the bars that say low, mean high etc aren't based on horses but other species as the main work is for the agricultural industry so not actually that helpful.
 
popsdosh said:
Get your analysis done by an independent lab in future ,why rely on a company that is trying to sell you something. Of course its going to be deficient!!
Click to expand...

Whilst I would usually agree with you as I am pretty cynical, I haven't found this with Forage Plus. As others have mentioned they use an independent lab and send the results directly to you, plus you can choose to have it interpreted into a feed plan (at an additional cost obviously) or not. The feed plan Sarah did for me gave the amounts of each mineral needed so I could choose to buy them elsewhere and make up a mix myself or easily compare the requirements to another balancer.

I had my horse on their balancer before I had the analysis done (current diet is provided when you apply for a feed plan from the analysis) and the feed plan suggested I could provide what was needed by reducing it by half (i.e. feed the same product at half the recommended rate) so I am spending less with them following the forage analysis.
 
I also have to say I had no pressure whatsoever from Forageplus, in fact they said apart from magnesium which I was supplementing for anyway there was very little if anything I needed to add.
 
A couple of comments...
Grey Haven said:
200 mg copper
600 mg zinc
2.5 grams phosphorous
6 grams magnesium
0.5 grams selenium
1000 iu vitamin E
1.5 grams methionine (but add an extra 1 x 5ml scoop of separate to support the liver whilst your horse is recovering for the next 6 months)
5 grams of lysine (but add extra 1 x 10 ml scoop of separate to support muscles)
1 mg iodine
15 mg biotin
50 mg vitamin B1 thiamine
50 mg vitamin B6 pyridoxine
10 mg folic acid
5 grams salt
Click to expand...

I hope this is just a typo, but I'm pretty sure it should be 0.5 mg of selenium, not grams (that would be toxic!). If you check the NRC recommendation for selenium, it is 1mg/day for a 500kg horse.
Now, let's have a look at the Equinox supplement. I don’t know what the recommended feed rate is for this. But if the values listed are correct, then one kg would provide only 1.1mg copper (RDA 100mg) and 67mg zinc (RDA 400mg). On the other hand, it would provide 50mg of selenium, which is 50 times the daily RDA and in fact a toxic level.
I suspect maybe the analysis provided isn’t correct, or else the daily recommended dose is much less than 1kg, in which case the selenium levels would probably be fine, but copper and zinc would drop to homeopathic levels. Just based on those few elements, I wouldn’t call this a particularly well-balanced supplement. And so far, I haven’t even taken into account the forage analysis yet.
I suspect the FP supplement recommendation includes higher-than-RDA values of copper and zinc to counter-balance the high iron levels in the hay (which can block uptake).

Grey Haven said:
MICROELEMENTS
Iron: ........................................................ 70,1 mg/kg
Copper: ................................................... 1,1 mg/kg
Manganese: ......................................... 9,32 mg/kg
Zinc: ...................................................... 67,4 mg/kg
Iodine: ...................................................... 0,90 g/kg
Selenium: ................................................ 50 mg/kg
Click to expand...
Looking at the zinc/copper/selenium levels of a supplement with the NRC RDAs in mind is usually a good starting point. Then look for a supplement without additional iron (since that is high in the forage), and you’ll start separating the useful products from the unhelpful ones.
If you’re not entirely happy trusting some of the newer companies (Pro Earth, Forageplus, Equivita…), some of the longer-established feed companies are starting to produce products now that are a better match for typical UK forage mineral profiles. E.g. Spillers TEN Wellbeing daily balancer, or Equimins Advance Concentrate.
 
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