Catch-22, how do you tell a good Trainer if you're not experienced yet..?

Fab thread K :D

I've had a number of instructors over the years and thing that gets me EVERY time is when someone shouts 'do this, this and this' or 'more inside etc' without actually explaining why. BIG bug bear of mine. Or the 'you should be able to do this by now' type. Well I'm obviously struggling so perhaps if you work out why and then take it in steps, I'll get there.

I'm someone who likes to visualise things. Like the other week I was having some flatwork issues and person on the ground started telling me about sponges and that's how you should treat your contact on a young horse etc. 2 mins later I had the results I was after. Such a simple thing but it works for me.

One of the best people I've ever been taught by was a BHSII who had learnt everything on the job and her lessons were fantastic. Explained things in minute detailed and if it meant her running around the arena to show me, she did it. And 90% of her flatwork lessons were on the basics with the mantra being 'you do it in walk perfectly, before getting into trot'. There were many many lessons where I was never let out of a 20m circle in trot and boy was it worth it!
 
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teapot said:
Fab thread K :D



One of the best people I've ever been taught by was a BHSII who had learnt everything on the job and her lessons were fantastic. Explained things in minute detailed and if it meant her running around the arena to show me, she did it. And 90% of her flatwork lessons were on the basics with the mantra being 'you do it in walk perfectly, before getting into trot'. There were many many lessons where I was never let out of a 20m circle in trot and boy was it worth it!
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I've had about 4 lessons (which I realise isn't many, she isn't nearby, and we're both really busy!) with the lady I like and I haven't been allowed to canter yet. I don't think I went out of walk much in the first lesson. And yes, watching her trot around the arena demonstrating what I need to do, does keep me smiling :D

I have no idea what her qualifications are, is it rude to ask?! :confused: :D
 
Ah yes, the legendary "wasn't allowed out of walk for the whole lesson" trainers.. i'll add my dressage trainer to that list. he was right, too.
when Pippa Funnell first went to Ruth McMullen she wasn't allowed out of walk either, iirc, i think it's in her autobiography.
re: qualifications... hmmm, not rude to ask, no, if you're paying it is your right to know, but sometimes experience can be worth just as much as paper quals imho.
 
kerilli said:
Ah yes, the legendary "wasn't allowed out of walk for the whole lesson" trainers.. i'll add my dressage trainer to that list. he was right, too.
when Pippa Funnell first went to Ruth McMullen she wasn't allowed out of walk either, iirc, i think it's in her autobiography.
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It's also a Jane Holderness-Roddam school of thought if memory serves me right about my instructor.

re: qualifications... hmmm, not rude to ask, no, if you're paying it is your right to know, but sometimes experience can be worth just as much as paper quals imho.
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Agree with that too :)
 
I agree with the mobile phone issue, especially when you're paying for their time!
However, it is nice when you have instructors who are quick to offer praise and encouragement and I like one's which aren't afraid to get on your horse to show you (and sometimes the horse) how it's done :)
 
Ludi-doodi said:
Was having this very discussion this morning on the yard! We have 2 or 3 regular 'trainers' on the yard who different people use. Slightly off topic, but thought I'd share the Story I heard this morning about one of the instructors (not the one I use) left me a bit opened mouthed..... went like this

Mother of teenager eventer was showing instructor video of daughters last dressage test and says to instructor 'she's always a bid handy' meaning that daughters hands move a lot in particular the inside one pulling back on rein very noticabley. Instructor says "oh, so she does, look she's doing it now" Then asks (this is my:eek: bit) "What do we do about that then?" to the mother.:eek: This man is a "Training the Teachers of Tomorrow" senior instructor and charges £40 a lesson!! Daughter is doing quite well at eventing and has had lessons with this man for a few years. My questions firstly, why did he not notice she does this before now and fix the problem, and secondly, surely he must know the answer to the problem, or why on earth is he being paid??? I also heard with another lesson he was saying "excellent, well done" to one person whilst pulling faces in a "oh my god, what she's doing" type of way to the folks who were watching!!

To get back on topic, I'm a great believer in having an instructor you click with, and sadly I think it does come with experience, but also trust your gut instinct. If you are not learning, find someone else "just to see". I think it does good to have occassional lessons with others even if you are happy with your main instructor to get a different perspective. (I say 'you' in a general sense, not directed as OP!).

I've had the disinterested/easily distracted type, the just rack up the jumps and say get on with it type, the shouty type (3 different instrutors by the way;)). The ones I've gelled with and learnt most from are those who explain things, the "we do this to get this reaction" type or explain the physiology behind movements etc, who encourage but tell you when things are wrong but will yell a little when it's needed.

Sorry, that went on a bit!!
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That is why I never have lessons with the guy I assume your mentioning above. He would just instruct me to ride a movement and tell me it was great. Its a shame because he used to be a really good instructor.

I like someone who will push me and tell me its **** when it is. My best ever instructor moved abroad just before my horse broke down. She just knew me and the horse inside out. It probably helped that she was my YO too.
I have no idea what I will do when my horse comes back into work and shes not there.

I think instructors really are a personal choice. I have sat and watched friends having lessons and actually cringed, but yet they think they are the best thing since sliced bread.
 
I've had lessons from several top/olympic riders over the years. I have generally been dissappointed by the "big names". The worse was whenI was having a lesson through my local RC with one of the "big names", I was riding a TB ex racer which had a slight screw loose, and had only just started jumping. Within a few minutes this trainer told me my horse should be sent to the meat man, as he had never seen a horse so talentless, and spent the whole time telling me how useless my horse was, and there was no point him teaching a horse who was so bad.

I have also had the instructors who say "good" regardless of how i actually jumped the fence, then "come again". If it was a good jump why was it good? And if it was so good, why should I have to do it again????

As an instructor myself I will always ask a new client for background on themselves, and their horse. If I don't know the background, how can I tailor the lessons to suit their strengths and weaknesses???? I then find out long term goals, and what they want to achieve from the lessons, then after watching the rider I can let them know how achievable their goal is, and how we should break it down to manageable chunks. I always spend a good 10 minutes watching a horse and rider warm up at all paces during the first lesson before I say anything. This allows me time to see the general look of the partnership, and also their understanding of a warm up routine, trotting diagonals, canter leads, accuracy etc. I then ask the rider how the warm up felt to them before I pass any comment, this again helps me gauge how much 'feel' a rider has for the horse, and their general equine knowledge. Only after a good 20 minutes of talking and watching do I feel I have enough of a overview to start to help the rider in a constructive manner. I don't like Instructors who start ordering you about before they even know what you have done, or what you want to achieve. How do these instructors know if the horse is saying I can't or I won't if they don't have any info, the horse could have had an injury for all they know!
 
I've not had many trainers admittedly... but a few things that I think. I don't want an instructor to stand there and chat for 25 minutes before we get out of walk- paying them to teach not to chat! And also, if the instructor can't/ won't get on the horse.

My current instructor is great, and I find it incredibly useful that she can get on and ride L. She can teach me better as she knows the feel of the horse, and when I was injured and suddenly unable to ride, she has her for a weeks schooling.
 
Ummmm I think it is actually difficult to tell if you are inexperienced, having been caught out big time when I came back into riding 12 -13yrs ago I went to a local riding school with a good reputation, and fell into a trap of being told I was better than I was and spending a huge amount of money before the 'scales fell off my eyes', and I realised I had bought a horse for my trainer to compete, not me. The poor horse and I were pushed way beyond our capabilities, until we scared each other, in steps the trainer asking to be paid to take over the ride. . . I moved the horse onto another yard to sell, I had no intention of sitting on him again. Two weeks later, with a much different and less pressurised training the horse was chilled and a different animal, I was gently persuaded to get back on and develop a new relationship with my lad. We were taught completely differently, quietly, no shouting, everything explained and no quick fixes.

I was naive, but it taught me alot. I like a trainer who discusses your aims, will work towards them without rushing, is able to instill confidence in both you and your horse, knows your limitations, but occasionally gives you a challenge, but knows you are capable of meeting it, even if it pushes you to the limit, just to show you that you can do it. I hate being shouted at, and would much prefer to take a little longer to get a horse going correctly than use quick fixes. I also prefer the trainer to concentrate on my way of riding, as I find if I get it right (or as close as my limited ability allows me too) the horses job is much easier, it never ceases to amaze me how making a little difference to the way I sit (eg, I tend to tip my shoulders forwards going into a fence, blocking the horses shoulders, if I am upright it can lift its shoulders and jump much better).
 
someone who makes me feel like I am the only person they teach IYSWIM?

an instructor needs to give me confidence, as I am so nervous. I like to leave the lesson smiling, and thinking I could have done more, rather than being overfaced

A memorable bad one was an instructor who made us swap horses, and I refused to jump 3ft on the horse I was given. She told me to leave the lesson, and I would never make anything of myself and my horse. Guess who won the ODE 2 weeks later in front of her.....?! ;-)

My current instructor is great (I have to say that, she's on here!). She spotted straight away that I tip forward because I drop my hands. I've been doing this for 20 years, and not one person has told me to carry my hands, they just kept saying sit up. My position has improved massively, and my confidence has too, I never leave a lesson feeling scared.
Brian Hutton was amazing - he focused on all my good points, never overfaced me, and I felt like he was happy to be teaching me despite the fact I didn't jump over a foot!
 
I've had lessons from a fair number of people, from Olympic riders to "no name" trainers whose riding I happen to admire.

I now know what type of teaching works best for me. I learn through understanding, so I need to know the WHY as well as the how and the when. I don't learn so well when a trainer rides the horse "through" you - micromanaging every single movement without drawing breath. I Do learn well from someone who has a clear, logical system in place, and is able to explain why it works and also why in certain circumstances you might need a different tool kit. I can't abide the often seen style of sit in the corner smoking while barking "half pass now, ja gut, brav". Best dressage lessons I've had have been from Emile Faurie, Jennie Loriston-Clarke and David Pincus - all very different, all on different horses, but all extremely educational.

For jumping, the best lesson I ever had was from Francis Connors. We didn't go higher than 1.15m, but he mixed up the striding, discussed approaches and style, had me and the horse really thinking about our jumping and it was a brilliant experience. I hate jump trainers who whack up a single jump and just keep putting the bloody thing up and saying "come again, good". Useless. :confused:
 
I think even if you are experienced you can still have moments of doubt about whether what you are being told is right!

I want someone with a track record, either of training or competing, and preferably both - this validates my own judgement. For dressage, which is what I do, I want someone who can explain clearly and who isn't afraid to say they made a mistake, if we try something and it doesn't work. I don't want someone who just gets on my horse - I don't doubt that they can ride her, I'm paying them to get me riding her better. Occasionally, to demonstrate or to understand her better, fine, but not every lesson. I need someone who accepts what I can put into it - as someone with a fulltime job and a 2 hour commute, it's no good saying to me that I need to work her for 60 minutes twice a day because it isn't going to happen... And because I ride for fun, but take it seriously, I want someone who appreciates that I want to enjoy myself.

I've found someone who fits all these criteria and I'm sticking with her!
 
I have a couple of bug bears. I hate it when a trainer gets on to show me how it is done (unless the horse is playing up) I KNOW they can do it - teach ME how to do it, dont just show me and expect me to understand when i cant feel what your doing!

Also someone who constantly focuses on the bad. Even if i have a terrible time in a lesson, i need to take something positive away or i just feel deflated.
 
A good trainer has to ultimately have an extensive vocabulary and be able to explain what they want you to do in at least half a dozen different ways. Just repeating well worn phrases like inside leg to outside hand or soften your hand mean absolutely nothing unless they are able to describe in their own words what they mean. They must also be able to answer the question "why?" If they can't then its time to look elsewhere.

If they insist on jumping on your horse only to be able to show that they can achieve what you can't then that may mean that they are a good rider but a poor instructor. (Not to be confused with a trainer who gets on your horse in order to assess or school the horse).

A good trainer should be able to leave you with "homework" that you can practise on your own. But for the practise to be successful you must have been able to understand what "good" feels like and that means achieving it - even if only for a few seconds- in your lesson.

The trainer who is right for you may not be the one who is achieving with others. You and they must "click" otherwise you are just wasting your money.

In my opinion the most successful trainers may not have been the most successful competitors. Much more impressive if they can produce a pupil who can achieve greatness.

Finally, a plug for someone who I have just found who has been an absolute revelation to me - Peter Maddison Greenwell. Yes he is mostly known for his work with Iberian horses but he can and does explain complex things in short and non horsey words. Look him up on the internet. He runs clinics all over the UK, Dubai and Australia. He's also recently begun doing monthly clinics in North Herts.
 
I had a fantastic trainer the last two days, she had a group of us for a clinic and was wonderful. She seemed to understand people as well as horses, and gave us all confidence. She started small and built everything up, so on the XC session we started of trotting through water and ended up jumping in, jumping a jump in the water, and then jumping out. Fantastic she was! She clued on that I need an incentive to get my mare over the jump, and so I was designated as the person to give the youngsters leads over the more complicated jumps. As I'd had several refusals already it gave me just that little extra confidence and we flew over everything! The youngsters were given a lead, then did it themselves, and everyone was bounding round with huge smiles on their faces.

Also, I like a recap at the end of the session. I like to be complimented, and then given something very clear to work on. Something like 'fantastic paces, bold horse, you just need to relax your inside rein and take more weight in the outside to straighten up, you can do this by doing X, Y and Z.' Trying to remember everything mentioned in the lesson can be tricky, so that's how I like it.

I hate those do one excersize over and over instructors. I seem to just stop trying and get bored, I'm naturally an active person and so's my mare, so the two of us together get bored easily! However, I do need a firm 'get on with it now' instruction so I do eventually knuckle down.

So... not much really :P
 
I've had a few bad trainers in my time, and also some who were very good in their own right, just not right for me. Unfortunately I'm very trusting and it sometimes takes me a while to believe it or accept it when people aren't out to support you or your horse and are either just in it for the money or for some other personal gain (i.e. because they like your horse and want to knock you down until you're so deflated that you give them the ride on it!!).

On trainer I had, who was guilty of the above, I was with for a while - with the first horse I took to her she was quite good. I don't think she rated the horse much but liked the £40 an hour I was paying her and so we trundled along quite happily. But with my current horse, when I took him to her she loved him and I knew she was after the ride on him - he was inexperienced but has a lot of potential (that's why I bought him!!) and she suddenly became really pushy and was derogatry, not just about my riding but about my entire horse management. I don't claim to be the best, but I certainly know enough about horse and stable management to do pretty well on. I'm a pretty strong person so can take a lot personally, but the day she got on my horse, evidently in a bad mood, and proceeded to jab him in the mouth, kick him in the ribs, so much so that he was very stressed (and I'm not being soft when I say that, he was the most stressed and unhappy I've ever seen him) and ended up with a split mouth. She was trying to get him to do some movements which are not beyond him, but he had never been asked to do them before and genuinely didn't understand what she was asking - rather than asking a bit and rewarding him until he gradually got the idea, she went straight in all guns blazing, expecting her to know exactly what she was asking.

Needless to say, I didn't go back - you can mess with me and try to knock me down, but the second you do that to my horse that's it!

So, it needs to be someone I can trust with my horse, and who will give me constructive criticism, make comments about what they are seeing as they see it - not say after a lesson, 'you were doing this', but actually point it out when I'm doing it so I get what they mean!

My current instructor is brilliant and, since I haven't had much formal dressage training, she will sometimes get on to show me and, more importantly, my horse something new so he understands clearly what is expected. We're learning things at the same time at the moment so it's important that I don't confuse him while I'm learning as well, by giving unclear aids. He's very quick on the uptake so once she's shown him what we want a few times I can get on and he gets it, so I know how it should feel etc.

Also, to echo a few others, they need to deal with the rider before the horse - 9 times out of 10, when I watch people berating their horses or getting frustrated with them, it's because they haven't been quite clear in their instructions, or have just left it all to the horse. Most horses (there are of course exceptions!) would much rather do what they're asked, and be praised, than deliberatley ignore a clear instruction and get punished. Unfortunately I think we're all probably guilty of sending mixed messages now and again!!

I've had a ton of instructors and I've always known my balance and lower leg strength is inconsistent, but not one of my instructors, before the current one, even mentioned this. My current instructor showed me a simple exercise in my first lesson and in 5 minutes I had a failsafe way of correcting the problem, and have never looked back!!

Ooops, as usual I've been rambling - well done for making it this far, if you did!!!!
 
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