Caucasian shepherd female advice

If I may also address the 'protective' thing...at risk of repeating myself, the vast majority of dogs are 'protecting' themselves and their space and we humans just happen to be there in the periphery.

There is also the issue of resource guarding, the dog isn't being noble and brave, he's just not letting anyone else near the provider of all the resources, like food, or the squeaky prey-like things (children).

The vast majority of 'protective' dogs I come across are actually quite insecure/unbalanced.
 
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Amymay Again said:
You could take your dog (if you currently have one) to meet the parents and find out...
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That reminds me

skinnydipper said:
I am not a wimp around dogs but if I see an Ovcharka when I'm out with my dogs, I'll turn and go a different way.

Someone is advertising a litter. Parents can be seen but only at a distance. Hmm, no thanks.
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LGDs are absolutely amazing at what they were bred to do but a lot of the qualities that allow them to keep livestock safe in isolated locations without immediate human backup make them not very compatible with living in the average house / in an environment where they’re expected to interact with a lot of strange (to them) people and dogs.

Also most of them are absolutely flipping huge!

We’ve had the odd Central Asian Shepherd at work and they were tipping the scales at close to 100kg.

One of them came in collapsed. Do you have any idea how much of a logistical operation it is to move such a massive dog safely? (even fitting them through a normal sized doorway requires thought and everything has to be done on the floor cos the hydraulic table ain’t lifting that as they’re too big to fit) And that’s before we get to the issue of them using half a bottle at a time of a considerable number of medications. 😳
 
My experience of them is that they're neither mentally nor physically equipped for domestic life. They have a niche and don't really fit happily (for them or the overwhelming majority of dog owners) anywhere outside that niche.

Another point to consider. Because they have been poorly bred (in the west but also by those in the east who sell to the west) for a number of years: they have a high incidence of very severe hip and/or elbow dysplasia.
 
mll said:
I agree. I'm still not seriously considering her, just wanted info really. So many people are terrified of Rotties, I've always had very polite and quiet ones, worked hard at it of course, and I wondered if the reputation of the Ovcharka was justified or exaggeration
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A guardian breed, particularly the generally less domestic ones are a very, very long way from a rottie. I also can't imagine how these kinds of working breeds could be genuinely happy, settled and fulfilled in a domestic setting that would have little reference to their designed purpose. I say that as someone with working sheepdogs who are very domesticated and totally safe but would be miserable and neurotic without high levels of the right kind of work.
 
I've met a few but only in kennels, never on their home turf. 2 were/are regular boarders, they live on a farm but when their owners are away, they come into kennels as they are not happy leaving them with the people who look after their home and other animals so take from that what you will! They are friendly enough but staff stay pretty hands off - they don't go on leads, their kennel has a run out to the field for exercise and their kennel is cleaned while they are out. They'll come to the front of the kennel all waggy for a chat and staff go into the field with them but never solo. The male owner is the only one who can hold them on a lead and he brings them into and collects them from the kennel each time. Apparently they live with other dogs happily, come into the house but choose to sleep outside and do not socialise with visitors...

I can think of 3 rescues that actually made it as far as consideration for rehoming, all under a year old. They were part of a biggish seizure with imported dogs and uncontrolled breeding. Most were PTS for either welfare or temperament reasons very quickly. One bitch was rehomed to a very specialist home and is doing well AFAIK but the two dogs were PTS as unsuitable for rehoming due to aggression. I don't disagree with the decision and didn't have a lot to do with them but what I saw was very aloof, independent dogs who albeit very shut down, really didn't want to be around people at all rather than aggressive. Just not suitable for 99.9% of homes. Even a pup, no matter how well raised will still have the LGD traits so unless you have a 'job' out on the land for them is unlikely to work in a domestic setting and children add a whole new level of risk - the dog might be ok with their own family but kids have friends, families have visitors. Kids (and OHs IME!) are also notoriously careless when it comes to closing doors/keeping the dog seperate. I could see that going badly wrong.
 
mll said:
Yes, that is the stereotype I've seen but I wondered if it was often amped up for the cameras, and the dogs deliberately kept in hostile conditions, probably a bit hungry, and unsocialised to be as fearsome and aggressive as possible towards prisoners. I doubt the handlers bother to keep them comfortable or consider their wellbeing so I wondered how the breed would be when kept in a more suitable environment
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They wont be any different as no one has bred them to be any different. Anything more laid back wont make it and only the best working dogs will be bred from to keep the breed like that.
 
mll said:
Thank you very much for your input and recommendations, yes I 100% agree on my family adapting to and making changes for the dog not the other way around, many people get this wrong then blame the poor dog. Yes, in this case I'm being very cautious as I cannot trace her lineage. I suppose the advantage is that I'll have her from the very start so I can ensure I socialise her appropriately with the right training every step of the way. I have heard bitches of this breed can be slightly less territorial than males but I feel she could be extra protective of my girls and therefore even more wary around strangers...I will contact Mark and Julie Giles, thanks again
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Hi, another quick reply...I read your thoughts on bitches being less territorial - don't agree. Bella is the most placid dog ever until she deems a threat..then it's show time. she is rarely wrong, but my Anatolian Shepherd male is the sweetest boy ever all guns blazing ALL THE TIME..not just when its SHTF time but ALL the time. He would rather assume everything is about to murder us & then they can prove otherwise & he'll trust, maybe ...not for life but per visit...not aggressive, but people simply look at him sleeping & still think the worst...just as you said with rotties. you NEED to hear about Ursie. I had her from 2.5 months & she had already been thru hell .She was a wildfire worky drivey determined girl from the get go. She was a rescue, came with resource guarding, was the most incredible girl I've ever had but as she grew & settled I had my work cut out. I bled daily for 18 months getting thru the land shark adolescent period, she was a carpathian shepherd - again both harsh breeds, but you need amplify the what ifs with a CO. Yes you might get a Bella in your girl...but you have children..what happens if your gentle happy clever girl is like Ursie, or my boy? Ursie I lost to cancer at 4. She was an incredibly high drive & super trainable worky girl (something rare for LGD & CO types as they are independent thinkers & intuitive. They are bred to think independently & this is thousands of years of breeding - nobody can train this out nor should they. be it rustic shepherd for their job or the more sinister side for the biggest scariest most aggressive (and very far from true to type or fit for function dogs they are meant to be) You then need to know that most trainers & behaviourists refused to work with us - before I said a word. That they take longer to mature, so neutering needs to be 3 or 4 earliest - Ursie was the hardest dog I've ever owned but what I wouldn't do to have her back even for one more hug ...or one more bite. She was a sensational Scentwork dog & I learnt so so so much from her. My shepherds before her, they are an entirely different ball game - stratospheres apart. Shepherd are still biddable, they are the protable fence...the CO are the loaded gun that deploys when it sees fit that an intervention needs to happen...yes mostly deflecting...but you don't know the lines.. I'm not being dramatic, I just want you to see the tough side...the real & the ugly & the raw.

They are NOT like any shepherd you will have known...malinois or working lines or otherwise. Ursies seasons were tough too - she would change for each & until they are 4 ish and fully mature you really don't know which way it will go...placid until her first season could turn out the polar opposite at each & at 4? who will she be then? neutering could also have a very vastly different & permanent change to her so this is another reason to leave it as long as you can. How are you as a person? (not meant rudely& not wanting you to answer here, just food for thought!) Are you super chill with everything? are you going to be able to flat line thru whatever she does & keep your level cool & composed self 1million percent together? The slightest bit of oh sh*t or flicker of oh oh with a shep & you may get a bit of extra alertness/protective instinct come out..but do this with a CO & you can quickly & unknowingly build & trigger/reactivity. They are fiercely protective of their humans - even my breeds..how are you going to navigate this with your children growing up? friends coming in & out to play? Yes, you could end up with a peace keeper, a chill super relaxed soul like I have in Bella.... but there are so many what ifs. I just want to give you the raw bits you might not hear or expect... if you do get her, Mark will be more than happy to hand hold...equally he may have a known quantity that you could take on, maybe still a young one that he has put the work in with? If you decide not to get her, do mention her to him so he can be aware of her. Get the right one & put it in the right situation & you will have the best dog in the world....put the right work in & it will repay you for life in bucketfuls...the key to CO & most LGD is remember all actions/reactions/decisions & training 'negotiations' are best achieved as mutual teamwork, not because you have asked/ told /expected or demanded.....they just aren't wired that way! Also, look up Kangal Dog trainer on fb - her blogs are spot on & you will find them excellent support for any type of rustic breed you go for. I honestly don't want to discourage you, have just picked up the pieces so many times & it's heartbreaking. They are the only types of dog I'd have now, but they aren't made by Ronseal...so you don't always get what you are expecting...please keep us posted & again, I'm genuinely not trying to put you off...honestly!
 
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I am not a dog person, but have a 7 month old baby, and 2 cats

We keep saying "gentle" and "leave" with the cats but at the moment they are seen as the world's greatest toys - soft and movement!

Fortunately they both have fab temperaments, and hes not left alone with them. While they generally just run away from him, they have also raised a paw as if to say ive had enough of you now. No claws

Also one is fluffy, and its far easier for her fur to get caught in those little fingers, so accidentally pulling at it. Aren't causicans quite fluffy?

I know if a livestock guardian it may seen the children as its flock to protect but what if a hand got caught in some fluff? The cats can go places to get away, I can imagine it being harder for a massive dog - would it then eventually get frustrated and snap?

A dog that size a lot can quickly go wrong and a snap will have far bigger consequences. Potentially very serious or fatal ones

Its great you're researching. If you've always wanted the breed, id wait until your children are older, and fully able to interact with the dog safely, especially with a more volatile breed.

Also if the dog starts seeing your children as something that need protection, youre then Potentially going to get problems with visitors. Not sure of your family situation but what about grandparents coming to visit? What if they were to babysit?

You certainly sound diligent and experienced enough to own one, but not at this particular time

Also do they need a lot of stimulation/exercise? Will you manage that with the baby and toddler
 
P3LH said:
I think even in capable hands, unless you live remotely they just don’t appear to cope - I just don’t think they are as evolved as many other guard breeds and even some of the other livestock guardian breeds, and as a result they generally seldom translate into life.

I know someone who bought one, albeit a bit naively/from a breeder who was a bit of a snake oil salesman. It’s the greatest liability I know. They aren’t what I’d describe as totally green as dog owners either. My favourite of its many Stephen King’esque moments was when it put through their entire bay window to get to a delivery driver.
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This gives me chills - someone in our close has a huge German Shepherd (which i rarely see them walk) and it LAUNCHES at the window when the postman comes. You see the whole window move as it hits. Makes me worry about wear and tear over time and I would NOT want to be out there if it does come through

The postman came at the time I was outside the other day, and I commented to him how alarming it is, and he said it doesnt do it if the owners are there. Its the lady's sons dog, he moved back in and bought it with him. Her cats are always outside because they are wary of it which is sad, as they were there first. There's now a girl seemingly living full time in the house and she has a daschund, surprised that hasn't been eaten... that definitely gets walked, not sure why they cant take the German Shepherd at the same time
 
I think when you have a forum full of (mostly) sensible horsey types, many mothers and grandmothers and people living, working and training with lots of different types of dogs in various disciplines, and not one person has said 'Yeah I have one and it's great' or 'go ahead, they are super dogs', that should tell you all you need to know.

Re trainers not working with that type of dog, sorry, but I wouldn't work with that either. I do what I do voluntarily, I have a full time job that requires the use of both my hands and I am the only child of elderly parents, so it's not worth me putting myself at risk with a dog of an unpredictable nature that's twice as heavy as I am.
No sane helper will want to work a dog of that size and temperament either.
 
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A responsible breeder would never sell a dog like this into a home like yours.

That the breeder is willing to sell this cross into a pet home with two small children shows that they are not a responsible breeder.

Why would anyone want to buy anything from an irresponsible breeder?

I am astounded at a parent even considering this dog. Individually these breeds have specific characteristics and needs. There is no way of knowing what the cross will produce. There is only one generation of known animals and the dam is "wary and aloof".

I find it unfathomable that you have even considered this dog.
 
Splinters said:
My experience of them is that they're neither mentally nor physically equipped for domestic life. They have a niche and don't really fit happily (for them or the overwhelming majority of dog owners) anywhere outside that niche.

Another point to consider. Because they have been poorly bred (in the west but also by those in the east who sell to the west) for a number of years: they have a high incidence of very severe hip and/or elbow dysplasia.
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I watched a trainers vids on his Caucasian Shepherd that he'd bought. Impressive dog staggeringly huge,and good looking in a Yeti sort of way,but 2 things stuck with me from watching them together. One was the total lack of connection with the handler from the dog, meaning you needed to be physically strong to handle him, whereas with the more *biddable* types like gsds I find it possible to fool them into thinking im stronger,when any one of them could in reality flatten me!

But the other thing was,and it was a young dog,how horribly unsound it was. I couldnt work out if it moved slowly because of a breed trait or the state of its joints. I remember thinking *wouldn't like to have to help one into a car*. The Maremmas are a much lighter type of LGB and do look sounder. Would love to see these breeds at work in their native countries.
 
I haven't read all the replies but please think very carefully, I have a Romanian street dog (her first home didn't work out so she came to me) I had her DNA tested & she has a high percentage of Caucasian Shepherd, she's a lovely dog but wouldn't be for everyone. She's very very territorial, sometimes takes an instant dislike to a random person & makes it very clear; so I have to manage her carefully.
I don't know how much of this is due to her street dog past, selective breeding through coming from several generations of streets dogs or the genetics of her breeding.
She really is a lovely girl but I understand why her first home got rid & palmed her off on me, she is collie sized so doesn't have the size of a pure bred Caucasian, I think a pure bred one would scare me
 
mll said:
Thanks for your reply and input. I will clarify, I'll be able to meet the dam and sire when I visit next week, but beyond that I can't trace lineage. By all accounts the sire, the caucasian, is quite a gentleman and the dam your average basque shepherd, wary and aloof but warm once reassured. Of course I'd have to see for myself and even then it leaves a lot of grey area
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I will also ad here that if you can meet the dam and sire that means someone is willingly crossing these breeds. Thos alone rings alarm bells. They are NOT the sort -either breed...actually any lgd and certainly not CO...to be playing designer dogs with..no matter how that dress it up.any accidents included. I initially thought was CO and hazzarding a guess at basque. Just no no no no. My brain currently overwhelmed with making Christmas stock so of I were to reply again I'd say run a mile and no further comment. Sorry.
 
also half wondering, in the most inoffensive way possible OP if you are genuine, if it perhaps wasn't a mischief post with someone sat with their popcorn... hopefully it was...and they didn't go meet the dam & sire, go in for a fluffy cuddle & now we are left wondering why the silence....sorry, but surprise incoming high speed fluffy cuddles from strangers are a thing ...as are people who have set eyes on the dogs & decide they are now accepted wholly, not merely tolerated for extreme scrutiny purposes, & see it fit to try hug/lie on one of my two whilst saying goodbye without warning - despite being specifically asked not to interact... natural selection and all that!
 
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