Causes of laminitis other than obesity?

noblesteed

noblesteed

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Hi all,
Really stumped by my horse now! He is 13, connie x iberian.
He had mild lami in April when some nugget turned him out without his grazing muzzle. He was overweight at the time. He came in footy/pulses and had 3 weeks box rest, then 2 months turnout before he was sound. After the 3 weeks the vet fat-scored him as 2.75, tests for EMS and cushings were both negative.
He was fine all summer living out in his greenguard with no hard feed. He put on a little weight but nothing excessive. He had a suspected abcess on one foot in August.
A month ago we moved yards. He is now out in greenguard during the day, small haylage net at night with a bucket feed of Fast Fibre for vits/mins and so he can have less haylage- he gets about half a scoop with a handful of chaff. Since moving he has lost weight and now looks in good shape. No crest or fat pads. Last time the farrier came he said his feet hadn't grown much at all.
HOWEVER last week his feet became hot for about 2 days, then went cold. I was a little concerned as he was sluggish to ride and a few days later farrier found blood traces in the white line. He has had plastic frog support pads in front and still barefoot behind as feet haven't grown.
The farrier THINKS the lami is caused by the haylage as it's all that's changed. Toxins in it being released by horses' digestive system??? So I put horse on the last bit of hay we have, but he is still footy on his back feet. Our farmer said haylage has LESS sugar than hay (due to microbes 'eating' it) and our haylage is late-cut and quite poor this year. He said protein could be a possibility (he's a dairy farmer)???? But soaking haylage wouldn't make any difference only 'wake up' microbes and could make horse worse... I am a bit stuck as there isn't any hay round here...

Anyone else had any experience of haylage causing lami? And would a haylage balancer solve the problem?

OR alteratively could it have been the Fast Fibre? He wasn't getting that previously either.

Or something more sinister?
 
Hi, I share your pain! My mare has been on box rest now for nearly 4 weeks due to low grade laminitis. She does have cushings but that is controlled by prascend and her levels are now normal. She tested negative last year to EMS, but the vet says the normal fasting blood test gives a lot of false negatives and that really they need to be fasted, then fed a glucose meal and then blood tested. I declined this test fearing that it would spark off an even worse attack of lami. So I begged the vet to let me put her on metformin based on a clinical diagnosis (fat pads).

You say your horse's fat pads have now gone. Does he have dints above his eyes, or are these filled in? If they are filled in then it is likely that he has EMS.

Yes, haylage can spark laminitis. It has done so in my mare, but you are right that haylage has less sugar than hay, but not all haylage. I have now swapped my soaked hay for hi fibre Marksway haylage that is guaranteed to be less than 3% sugar. I soak this for 12 hours. This has resulted (along with the metformin) in an improvement in my mare. But with this horrid disease, you have to take each day as it comes, and she could be worse again tomorrow.

Other causes of laminitis, are stress, digestive disorders, steroids, concussive (or physical stress caused by putting more weight on a healthy limb to compensate for lameness in another limb), and sugar overload.

I hope that you manage to get to the bottom of what is causing your horse's condition. It is a very nasty and frustrating disease.
 
I am no expert but have a mare of 19 that we have struggled with with laminitis and abcesses since she was 6 and I cannot feed haylage to her at all. She only has to have one net of haylage and she starts showing signs of laminitis. She will also become 'footy' if she is stressed in any way, this has happened if she has had to be stabled for any reason and she has even had problems if strange horses have arrived in the field adjacent to hers even though there is a river between them and she cannot actually have close contact. She is extremely sensitive to her environment and any little change can set her off. Good luck with your horse.
 
We also used the Marksway with a LGL horse with no ill effect other than to my pocket.
I believe laminitis and EMS are a lot more complicated than any of us yet realise.. I hope to goodness that more is discovered about these dreadful diseases.

OP, the only question I can see left to ask you is about the chaff you are using. Even HiFi Lite would set our boy off and the only one he can manage is TopChop Lite which is totally no added sugar. Fast Fibre is fine for all of ours (2 lammi prone) and has been one of the best feeds we have found for them.

To add to the 'complications' and things never happening as we are led to believe... ours has currently got the run of six acres, with two of his friends, and has had for the last two years. Five years ago that would have crippled him but now he is maintaining a slimline healthy shape and is sound as a pound. Only difference is totally sugar/molasses free feed, alfalfa-free feed and poor quality soaked hay when he has to be in for any reason. In case you think this is all a coincidence he is out with a pony, also laminitic, on the same routine and with the same results. My only thoughts are that the six acres are very spread out and hilly with the only water source at the top of the field so they get quite a lot of exercise every day.

I hope you get some answers OP.
 
I was wondering abut the haylage as I have had the horse for nearly 5 years and when I first got him he was on haylage with no ill effects. Other than he was a real handful to deal with but that could also have been the molasses he got in his feed. Nothing foot related at all for the 2 years he was eating it. Since then he's been on fibre feeds and hay as I had his shoes taken off his hinds.
But then maybe he'd never had lami before, and maybe the bout in the spring was his first one and it has caused changes which now DO make him sensitive to haylage????

I was worried about Cushings as his coat is very thick. His feathery bits have always had a wave in them as he's part andalusian, his mane and tail are wavy too! But the bloodtest I had done in April this year was negative though the high end of normal. Could it have come on suddenly?

Wagtail what effect does soaking haylage have if there isn't much sugar in it anyway?
 
I think the outcome of the test for ems can vary greatly what time of the year it is, if you have had one test and its negativ but still suspect ems I would test again speak to your vet about when the best time is to test again.
 
The chaff I add is a handful of Mollichaff Calmer. It's the only chaff he'll eat! He hates any added garlic and won't touch alfalfa at all - the topspec ended up on the muckheap!

I could try removing that but it doesn't seem like it could cause any problems. He used to have just the mollichaff (or spillers cool fibre) before I discovered fast fibre in the spring when his lami initially began - he wouldn't drink anything so I would dilute it right down to get moisture into him! The vet said it was fine to feed FF to a laminitic, as I didn't want to give him anything extra.

Crikey this is all so complicated!!! Thanks for your opinions so far everyone! I will have a look at his eyes, I didn't notice any lack of dints. Farrier seems to think the problem is something metabolic anyway... I guess he sees a lot of lami horses and keeps telling me mine isn't fat!!!
 
My laminitic pony had acute laminitis when I was still slowly introducing haylage. It was a local grown variety off an ancient meadow. I thought it must have been the protein in it but it has been suggested the higher acidity may have been a factor. If I could get Marksway Horsehage here I would think about trying their high fibre one but otherwise I avoid all haylage for her and continue with soaked hay. She is doing very well with a very high spec balancer and good quality vitamin E powder. She has no grazing though as even a small amount of the grass here sends her footy. They are all different but I would give some gut support such as yea sacc definitely even if it is in your balancer. Also feed salt and probably extra magnesium oxide/cal mag.

I have been reading of quite a few horses testing negative for Cushings but responding well to a trial of prascend so don't dismiss Cushings.

ps. You could try a Vitex Agnus Cactus tincture. No Moody No from Pegasus health might be one to try initially. It's not cheap but cheaper than some of the tinctures.
 
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noblesteed said:
I was worried about Cushings as his coat is very thick. His feathery bits have always had a wave in them as he's part andalusian, his mane and tail are wavy too! But the bloodtest I had done in April this year was negative though the high end of normal. Could it have come on suddenly?
Click to expand...

Autumn is supposed to be one of the bad times of year for cushings, imo it would deffinately be worth getting him re checked, and if he was the high end of normal it is possible the chushings could have developed etc
 
noblesteed said:
I was worried about Cushings as his coat is very thick. His feathery bits have always had a wave in them as he's part andalusian, his mane and tail are wavy too! But the bloodtest I had done in April this year was negative though the high end of normal. Could it have come on suddenly?

Wagtail what effect does soaking haylage have if there isn't much sugar in it anyway?
Click to expand...

Yes, cushings can come on very suddenly. My mare was only just over the threshold when diagnosed. Vet said not even to bother to treat, but I decided to do so.

Soaking haylage will reduce the sugar even more, which in a lami prone horse can only be a good thing. The water I tip out everyday is brown from the mollases it has washed out.
 
Stress? Either from the move or something that is happening on new yard. (dogs chasing him in field, another horse chasing him etc).
Or frosty grass? Or someone else feeding him without your knowledge? My friends pony was normally fine if well managed, he had a sudden attack
 
Stupid phone. We couldn't figure out why at all. We then found out some moron was tipping his lawn cuttings in, & pony had eaten the lot.
 
Thank you everyone. That's given me a lot to think about. I think a call to the vet will be on the cards though I will speak to farrier first regarding what to say as he does a lot of work with my vets.

I also wanted to add, he has lost weight despite being in VERY light work (only hacked at weekends) and not having been clipped yet - he is usually in a rainsheet too... He certainly isn't cold. Last winter he was clipped AND often rugless, (unless it was horrid) just to keep his weight down.

Also, he doesn't SEEM stressed at all. He is a very sensitive, stressy horse anyway and can lack self-confidence, so I think would be bale to tell if he wasn't happy in any way. In fact he's settled into the new yard really well...

Ho hummmmm!!!!!
 
I would def want him on soaked hay, not haylege. Dairy farmers feed specifically for yield so their requirements are effectively the opposite of ours as horse owners!

Haylege goes through a completely different fermentation process to hay and is more acidic so harder on the horses gut, which when youve got a compromised system is not something you need going on.
 
I've been struggling for years to get my girl's EMS under real control but I've just changed from using HiFi (either Lite or Molassess Free) to using plain chopped oat straw and her crest has started to go! Also she now has slight hollows above her eyes for the first time in 5 years so I'd second the suggestion of looking at your chaff.

I've fed Shan haylage when I couldn't get hay but I did soak it for at least 1 hour (as recommended on the ECIR site) and she tolerated it quite well. She is not overweight, only gets 6 hours muzzled grazing per day and has tested low sugar hay with three feeds a day from splitting 1lb dry Speedibeet, 1lb dry FastFibre and a Stubbs scoop of oat straw chaff with added magnesium, copper and zinc.

As I said at the start, it's only since ditching alfalfa and molasses based chaffs that she's really showing a huge change - and she only had 1 scoop a day!
 
Laminitis is not fully understood however there are a number of known triggers which you are aware of. Trying to figure out those triggers is key to progress in each individual horse. Start by eliminating staples which have caused no problems in the past and highlight any new changes in the horses lifestyle. There's a lot of trial and error goes on with trying to find the trigger for your particular horse and what works for some doesn't for others. I had great success with the only laminitic I've ever had and incidentally haylage turned out to be a godsend for my horse but it isn't for every horse. I personally would never soak haylage but if you really feel you must then never soak it for longer than an hour or two (max) as you could initiate further fermentation which you don't want to do.

This site may be useful in helping you
http://www.thelaminitissite.org/h.html
 
Haylage is not advised for horses that have had laminitis. Dangerous stuff.
Many of the horses suffering from Laminitis in Autumn are as a result of emerging encysted small red worm. They are not detected in a worm count only a blood test.
Laminitis can be triggered off by many different things such as Insulin Intolerence, Stress, Concushion on the feet, infection, encysted emerging small red worm, etc.
 
How do you tell if it's redworm? My horse has always been well wormed...
Horse seemed really fed up today when I brought him in and he wouldn't touch his soaked hay. I think he was sulking! I weigh taped him and he's 511kg - over his very thick winter coat.

Good news is I think I have found a good supply of hay to last us the winter. I'm not happy about soaking the haylage. Hubby is a scientist and he says it will just reawaken the bacteria and start it fermenting again, which is the last thing we need.

And he does have decent dints above his eyes, phew!
 
I have had this this mine - came in 3 weeks ago not lame but unlevel, unhappy on feet and heat and pulses in feet. Box rested him, but he started to swell up in his man bits so vet said no outward sign of lami so turn him out masked. That didn't work so has been out for short bursts over the last week (hour max on poor grass) and touch wood nothing since (bar one flare-up but was after a hoony that I didn't know about). Hes' just done 4-5hrs each day this weekend and vet has suggested trying him for full day tomorrow.

Look to feed a good barley or oat straw. You need to keep the gut moving and a small haynet (even with small holes) is not enough to sustain him overnight. Nugz is on 10kg currently of which 8kg is straw, and the reminder is dry weight of hay that is soaked for a minimum of 8 hours. Tomorrow this will be reduced down.

And nugz went on hunger strike and refused to eat the soaked hay, but he soon learnt that if he wanted food, he'd have to eat it :D

I would cut out the chaff - no need for it, especially if the FF is being made up like slops!
 
Is the haylage supplied by the dairy farmer? There is evidence that grazing/forage made up of ryegrass (the number one choice for cattle) is a big risk factor for laminitis. Non-ryegrass varieties of forage are always preferable for horses. Hope you can eliminate the cause and your horse recovers soon.
 
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It's now widely recognised that there are 3 types of laminitis - SIRS where the horse has usually a serious systemic illness, raised temp, likely diarrhoea/gas/colic - starch overload and endotoxins come into this but you would see other signs of illness, not just laminitis; supporting limb where one leg has been non-weightbearing for some time - this is obvious! All other causes are likely to be endocrine - either EMS or PPID (around 90% of all laminitis cases). Insulin resistance/hyperinsulinaemia, is common to both (all horses with EMS have IR/hyperinsulinaemia, many but not all horses with PPID have it), and it is thought to be this that causes the laminitis - it is known that insulin levels of 200 uIU/ml, perhaps less, can cause laminitic changes in the feet (stretching of the laminae, etc) within 48 hours.

Both native ponies and Iberians are prone to EMS. The fact that your horse had laminitis in April, was putting on weight easily, had a crest and fat pads are pretty much diagnostic of EMS - an insulin result above normal would confirm it, but as has been suggested, resting insulin results are often negative, particularly if the horse is on a low sugar/starch diet when tested, and/or fasted beforehand. For that reason Liphook are now recommending the Oral Glucose Test - this gives a very good idea of the increase in insulin that will be caused when the horse eats grass or sugary/starchy feeds. The test can now be done using 0.5 g/kg bodyweight, rather than the 1 g originally suggested. I would always suggest testing resting insulin first, but be prepared to have the OGT if that result is negative.

Laminitis in the autumn is more indicative of PPID. Horses that have had EMS have a high risk of developing PPID from around the age of 10 onwards. Presumably it was ACTH that you had tested in April that was high end normal. It is suggested that there is a grey area of around 10 pg/ml either side of the ACTH cut-off, so for a non-autumn cut off of 29 pg/ml, results between 20 and 40 pg/ml are neither negative nor positive. Testing again between Aug and Oct is recommended, or outside of these months, using the TRH stimulation of ACTH. However, recent research has shown that many horses with early PPID do not test positive, in fact sometimes horses have obvious (advanced) PPID before their resting ACTH is positive. Clinical signs must always be taken into account, as well as diagnostic tests.

Has your horse lost more weight than you would have expected? Has he lost any topline? Weight loss and loss of top line are among the early signs of PPID, particularly for EMS horses that are developing PPID. As well as a thick coat, is he showing any shedding abnormalities - shedding later than other horses around, shedding in patches, longer hair on his legs, jaw or neck? Details of more PPID symptoms here:
http://www.thelaminitissite.org/ppid.html

Retesting insulin, glucose and ACTH would be a good idea, and if negative, then the OGT and perhaps TRH stimulation of ACTH.

Whether EMS or PPID, the actual trigger was almost certainly too much sugar or starch. Have you had frosty weather that could have increased the sugars in the grass - even with a muzzle he could be eating too much - many horses with insulin resistance can't eat grass at all, or not until the IR is under control. Well made haylage should be low in sugar, but I've seen farm haylage that is higher in sugar than is probably correct. Soaking haylage is not a good idea because of the risk of setting off secondary fermentation.

I would suggest joining one of the specific laminitis support groups so that you can be helped through correct diagnosis and treatment - see under Support & Advice: http://www.thelaminitissite.org/s.html

Good luck!

Andrea
www.thelaminitissite.org
 
Just to add!

Causes of lami!

EMS
IR
Cushings
Stress lami
Starvation lami
concussion (believe it or not fit endurance horses have had lami)
Frost lami
Snow lami
Worms
chemical Lami
Steroidal Lami

I would as a point get the bloods tested asap! There are plenty of meds out there to help balance the insulin resistance-metformin is the widely recognised and used.

Animal Health Trust have finished a study which the HH reported on 18 months ago. One owner removed grass from the horses diet completely and fed only rye haylage and fibergy, very interesting study by all accounts

Good luck
 
The Laminitis Site said:
It's now widely recognised that there are 3 types of laminitis - SIRS where the horse has usually a serious systemic illness, raised temp, likely diarrhoea/gas/colic - starch overload and endotoxins come into this but you would see other signs of illness, not just laminitis; supporting limb where one leg has been non-weightbearing for some time - this is obvious! All other causes are likely to be endocrine - either EMS or PPID (around 90% of all laminitis cases). Insulin resistance/hyperinsulinaemia, is common to both (all horses with EMS have IR/hyperinsulinaemia, many but not all horses with PPID have it), and it is thought to be this that causes the laminitis - it is known that insulin levels of 200 uIU/ml, perhaps less, can cause laminitic changes in the feet (stretching of the laminae, etc) within 48 hours.

Both native ponies and Iberians are prone to EMS. The fact that your horse had laminitis in April, was putting on weight easily, had a crest and fat pads are pretty much diagnostic of EMS - an insulin result above normal would confirm it, but as has been suggested, resting insulin results are often negative, particularly if the horse is on a low sugar/starch diet when tested, and/or fasted beforehand. For that reason Liphook are now recommending the Oral Glucose Test - this gives a very good idea of the increase in insulin that will be caused when the horse eats grass or sugary/starchy feeds. The test can now be done using 0.5 g/kg bodyweight, rather than the 1 g originally suggested. I would always suggest testing resting insulin first, but be prepared to have the OGT if that result is negative.

Laminitis in the autumn is more indicative of PPID. Horses that have had EMS have a high risk of developing PPID from around the age of 10 onwards. Presumably it was ACTH that you had tested in April that was high end normal. It is suggested that there is a grey area of around 10 pg/ml either side of the ACTH cut-off, so for a non-autumn cut off of 29 pg/ml, results between 20 and 40 pg/ml are neither negative nor positive. Testing again between Aug and Oct is recommended, or outside of these months, using the TRH stimulation of ACTH. However, recent research has shown that many horses with early PPID do not test positive, in fact sometimes horses have obvious (advanced) PPID before their resting ACTH is positive. Clinical signs must always be taken into account, as well as diagnostic tests.

Has your horse lost more weight than you would have expected? Has he lost any topline? Weight loss and loss of top line are among the early signs of PPID, particularly for EMS horses that are developing PPID. As well as a thick coat, is he showing any shedding abnormalities - shedding later than other horses around, shedding in patches, longer hair on his legs, jaw or neck? Details of more PPID symptoms here:
http://www.thelaminitissite.org/ppid.html

Retesting insulin, glucose and ACTH would be a good idea, and if negative, then the OGT and perhaps TRH stimulation of ACTH.

Whether EMS or PPID, the actual trigger was almost certainly too much sugar or starch. Have you had frosty weather that could have increased the sugars in the grass - even with a muzzle he could be eating too much - many horses with insulin resistance can't eat grass at all, or not until the IR is under control. Well made haylage should be low in sugar, but I've seen farm haylage that is higher in sugar than is probably correct. Soaking haylage is not a good idea because of the risk of setting off secondary fermentation.

I would suggest joining one of the specific laminitis support groups so that you can be helped through correct diagnosis and treatment - see under Support & Advice: http://www.thelaminitissite.org/s.html

Good luck!

Andrea
www.thelaminitissite.org
Click to expand...

Thank you for this very useful information. :) I have found that my mare is best on soaked marksway hi fibre haylage that is guaranteed to be less than 3% sugar, than on soaked hay. I have not had problems regarding fermentation, but do you think I would be better feeding it unsoaked?
 
stress can cause a bout of laminitis, you have changed yards and that for many horses is stressful.

changing yards means you have changed grazing? is the grazing better quality/more plentiful then before? o is it fertilized?

i would retest for ems too, good luck
 
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