Cavalier? Really?

ycbm

ycbm

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I got talking to a couple on a tram today with a lovely dog who looked like a smallish Springer with huge eyes. They told me he was a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.

Have they been misled by a puppy farmer? Or are there really some huge Cavaliers with long muzzles being bred? He was a lovely boy, but surely not what he'd been sold as?
 
I was very proudly told by a man with what was clearly a long haired GSD that he'd paid thousands for his Belgian Shepherd. My mate had to drag me away....his money, his choice....

(My GSD is mostly Belgian bred but he's still German lol)
 
someone posted on the WGR page on FB yesterday that their rather lovely WGR had been sold to them as a cocker. the other pup they'd bought from 'the same litter' is now an ESS.
 
I would have said he undoubtedly had eyes that were spot on for a Cavalier, and they said they saw him with 'his' mother. But if dad wasn't a Springer I'd be very surprised.

I take it we agree they've been sold a pup :D ?
 
There are some with longer muzzles - my friends have a b&t like that and very long (for a cavvie) legs. They think a cocker may have got in the mix somehow but TBH it isn't that long since the breed was developed from the King Charles to have a longer nose so I would think throw backs are perfectly possible. Puppy farms don't select the best specimens of course
 
I managed to buy an 'inuit' that failed to turn into the expected big wolfy thing and was actually a plain old Siberian. Worked out for the best in the end.

I've noticed an influx of giant 'pomeranians' of late, one was 14kg. :o
 
My dog was advertised as "lab x staffy"

Ill let you decide..

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tbf we knew he had no staffy in him, which didn't matter as he was a rescue. But we did go to see a "toy poodle" one time when we were into them, and it was advertised as 10weeks old, proper breeder etc. We thought great, 10weeks it will be really well weaned and have had vaccs and papers etc. Got to the house to see a dog the size of a westie with twice as much fluff and the "mother" was a bloody bison frise! They said it was "110% a pure bred toy poodle!" and we just literally laughed and walked out.
 
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Our recently dear departed BT was huge. We called him the borderline terrier because he was without doubt bigger than normal and a very poor specimen despite being KC reg and exceptionally well bred. We bought him at 4 months because no-one wanted him and we saw him outside the secretaries tent when my daughter was eventing and she fell in love with him. His breeder told us some years later that he was the naughtiest puppy she had ever bred but for us he was just lovely, the nicest dog you could imagine and he really never put a foot wrong. He'd never have won anything in the showring but he won our hearts, which is all that mattered. Sadly we lost him last week aged 14yrs.
 
I have a giant supposed cavalier. I rehomed him at 5, the family I got him from paid cavalier price for him but later on I did some research into his past and turns out the family unintentially bought him from a puppy farm. I'm sure there's something else in him regardless of his "pedigree".
 
oldie48 said:
Our recently dear departed BT was huge. We called him the borderline terrier because he was without doubt bigger than normal and a very poor specimen despite being KC reg and exceptionally well bred. We bought him at 4 months because no-one wanted him and we saw him outside the secretaries tent when my daughter was eventing and she fell in love with him. His breeder told us some years later that he was the naughtiest puppy she had ever bred but for us he was just lovely, the nicest dog you could imagine and he really never put a foot wrong. He'd never have won anything in the showring but he won our hearts, which is all that mattered. Sadly we lost him last week aged 14yrs.
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I'm so sorry for your loss.
 
I have groomed a few 14kg cavvies over the years, and they weren't just fat ones, but as tall as cocker spaniels. I have had bichons the size of large cockers. Yorkies the size of large border terriers. Yesterday I did a massive border terrier. I've done bichons the size of tiny yorkies.

Bad specimens around everywhere. It's really really rare to see decent sized and shaped dogs outside of a show ring it seems with so much back yard breeding.
 
PucciNPoni said:
Bad specimens around everywhere. It's really really rare to see decent sized and shaped dogs outside of a show ring it seems with so much back yard breeding.
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I don't doubt there is a depressing amount of backyard breeding going on in many pedigree breeds, but I would dispute that it is rare to see decent dogs outside of a show ring ... but perhaps that is because my preference is almost always for the working variety of any pedigree breed (where there is a split).
 
WorkingGSD said:
I don't doubt there is a depressing amount of backyard breeding going on in many pedigree breeds, but I would dispute that it is rare to see decent dogs outside of a show ring ... but perhaps that is because my preference is almost always for the working variety of any pedigree breed (where there is a split).
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I should have perhaps said in "toy breeds" and many terriers. I think the ones I get perhaps then are mutations of some sort - all weird and wonderful shapes and sizes. I have Pomeranians that are the size of cockers....and some that are itty bitty runty things. And most I think are really Spitz anyway.

I think there is not the same issue with gun dogs and working per se, that there is in toy breeds. Even Min Schnauzers are all massive in my area.

Yes, the working types are different than the show types. But when you start wondering whether the yorkie is a "working type" or a "show type" lol you do have to think there is something amiss. Many a client has told me they have either a "standard yorkie" or a "teacup yorkie". When the "standard" variety arrives it's actually the size of a decent sized border terrier....and the "teacup" is closer to breed standard. hmmm.
 
equi said:
My dog was advertised as "lab x staffy"

Ill let you decide..

10339654_10202756749337298_7672594367794250937_n.jpg


tbf we knew he had no staffy in him, which didn't matter as he was a rescue. But we did go to see a "toy poodle" one time when we were into them, and it was advertised as 10weeks old, proper breeder etc. We thought great, 10weeks it will be really well weaned and have had vaccs and papers etc. Got to the house to see a dog the size of a westie with twice as much fluff and the "mother" was a bloody bison frise! They said it was "110% a pure bred toy poodle!" and we just literally laughed and walked out.
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He's very handsome whatever he is. :)

There's a dog goes to my training class who looks very much like your boy, even down to the markings (cept she's a she and chocolate). She's 3/4 lab and 1/4 springer
 
See, this is the kind of thread that makes me think I was right on Shady's thread about breeders sending 'less good' (as it doesn't match breed standards) dogs to pet homes... a dog that doesn't conform to breed standards isn't necessarily a 'bad' or lesser pet dog at all. But if people want dogs to match an (let's face it largely arbitrary and occasionally not very healthy) set of standards then I'd expect breeders to select to keep/send to breeding homes dogs of their breed who match those standards. The remainder may be delightful, healthy and happy animals and make great pets (or breed great non-show/even non-pedigree dogs too!).

If the couple in the OP were happy with their dog what does it matter if it had a more practical nose shape?

FWIW 'Staffy' is quite a wide description these days (I'm not sure I'd recognise a show-bred one) and I could see some of the facial shape of one in Equi's dog. Edited to add: he looks a fair bit like the crosses here: http://dogsbarn.com/staffy-cross-labrador/
 
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GirlFriday said:
See, this is the kind of thread that makes me think I was right on Shady's thread about breeders sending 'less good' (as it doesn't match breed standards) dogs to pet homes... a dog that doesn't conform to breed standards isn't necessarily a 'bad' or lesser pet dog at all. But if people want dogs to match an (let's face it largely arbitrary and occasionally not very healthy) set of standards then I'd expect breeders to select to keep/send to breeding homes dogs of their breed who match those standards. The remainder may be delightful, healthy and happy animals and make great pets (or breed great non-show/even non-pedigree dogs too!).

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If a breeder is breeding the next generation of show dog, and to improve upon the breed then of course they keep the best ones and sell the rest to pet homes. There is no such thing as a perfect specimen, nothing adheres 100% to any breed standard. There are always faults. Someone breeding for the confo ring will try to mate their bitch to a dog which will compliment her best features, and hopefully correct any of the faults. It does not always work this way.

Pet breeders (aka backyard and puppy mill) either don't care about confo or maybe unaware and the resulting litters are deviating from the breed standard more than the ones that might come from a show breeder. This is not to say that there aren't good pet breeders out there that do consider health, temperament AND conformation - it's just that I haven't met many. Most are thinking what unusual colors they might get, how much money they can sell a puppy for, and if they do a designer cross, can they get more money for the offspring.

Many show breeders will take a litter from a bitch, and maybe keep one, none or all of the puppies to run on. It just depends on what they get. But if they keep something, they will often keep the best for themselves.
 
This is a little Blenheim I rehomed from someone who had rescued her from a puppy farm. She was a sweetheart and loved by everyone who met her, but hardly a typical cavalier. I often wonder what her puppies might have been like and whether she had anything good to pass on other then her temperament (she was PTS 18 months ago at the age of (allegedly) 10 because she was full of tumour. NOt sure if there was any connection with her physiology or history and her age was really uncertain)

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JillA said:
This is a little Blenheim I rehomed from someone who had rescued her from a puppy farm. She was a sweetheart and loved by everyone who met her, but hardly a typical cavalier. I often wonder what her puppies might have been like and whether she had anything good to pass on other then her temperament (she was PTS 18 months ago at the age of (allegedly) 10 because she was full of tumour. NOt sure if there was any connection with her physiology or history and her age was really uncertain)

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JillA she is more of a typical cavalier than many. MANY others I have seen over the years!

i clearly recall a cavalier bred in the 1980s that was springer sized - his name was Merry - he was a real throwback despite 'good' breeding! With a breed that is as exploited and over-bred as cavaliers, it will not be unusual sadly enough
 
JillA said:
This is a little Blenheim I rehomed from someone who had rescued her from a puppy farm. She was a sweetheart and loved by everyone who met her, but hardly a typical cavalier. I often wonder what her puppies might have been like and whether she had anything good to pass on other then her temperament (she was PTS 18 months ago at the age of (allegedly) 10 because she was full of tumour. NOt sure if there was any connection with her physiology or history and her age was really uncertain)

P1010748_zpsjj0sy6vw.jpg
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Think those eyes, on a smallish thick set Springer, brown nose, and you have the dog I met. He was, breed standard or no breed standard, a gorgeous dog!
 
Aw, that wee face, you could just cuddle her all day.

Before anyone thinks I'm a snob (though I do appreciate a good form, that is true) I do think all dogs are beautiful. I've met wee poms which have no hair and just want to cuddle them the though whole time. Yorkies who's legs turn 90degrees out and I know they are the best dog in that day. Or toy breeds which the back end is a good inch taller than the front end, and love them just the same. I feel sorry for them when they are built that way because of the problems they will have as they get older, but I love them as much as any other dog.


JillA said:
This is a little Blenheim I rehomed from someone who had rescued her from a puppy farm. She was a sweetheart and loved by everyone who met her, but hardly a typical cavalier. I often wonder what her puppies might have been like and whether she had anything good to pass on other then her temperament (she was PTS 18 months ago at the age of (allegedly) 10 because she was full of tumour. NOt sure if there was any connection with her physiology or history and her age was really uncertain)

P1010748_zpsjj0sy6vw.jpg
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I think the bottom line is that we all would prefer to see a healthy dog than one which conforms to "breed standards" that is unhealthy. i was very shocked to see an article comparing modern breeds of dogs with those bred 100 years ago or so, too many breed standards nowadays do not put the dog's health first.
 
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