CCTV in Eddie Stobarts horsebox seen by driver

ROG

ROG

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I was watching the TV programme Eddie Stobarts trucks and trailers yesterday evening and I noticed that their Horsebox had been designed with in cab CCTV which the driver was to watch whilst driving !!

GeeBee45 said:
The simple answer with regards to the driver being able to see the monitor screen is;

No it is not legal.

The slightly more complex answer may be found in; Regulation 109 Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986

No person shall drive or cause or permit to be driven a motor vehicle on a road if the driver is in such a position as to be able to see, directly or by reflection, a television or similar apparatus except apparatus used to display information :-
• about the state of the vehicle or its location or the road location,
• to assist the driver to see the road adjacent to the vehicle, or
• to assist the driver to reach his destination.

My reading of that is; if the screen shows images of a horse in the trailer or rear of box then it is not legal. However, the same screen would be legal if it was displaying the output from a sat nav device or an externally mounted camera covering a 'blindspot.' Leave watching the horse(s) to the passenger.

Apart from the above, any incident attributable to your inattention due to watching the (illegal) screen could well see you being charged with 'drive due care' or 'dangerous driving' trust me, you really do not want to end up on the receiving end of those.
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So, does ES have a legal exemption for this?
 
Maybe it would come under 'state of the vehicle'? I have no idea, but is this about ANY vehicle? Because if you aren't allowed to see the inside of the horsebox while driving, even through reflection, then is it the same in a car? Like, in a car you can see the backseat passengers when you look in the rear view mirror.

Also, my horsebox is an old conversion and still has the rear view mirror in, if I look in it I can see through the glass a little bit to see the horse, although I actually can't see a lot because its not clear enough, I can just about see the partition and a haynet bobbing about. Would that not be considered legal?
 
EmmaB said:
Maybe it would come under 'state of the vehicle'? I have no idea, but is this about ANY vehicle? Because if you aren't allowed to see the inside of the horsebox while driving, even through reflection, then is it the same in a car? Like, in a car you can see the backseat passengers when you look in the rear view mirror.

Also, my horsebox is an old conversion and still has the rear view mirror in, if I look in it I can see through the glass a little bit to see the horse, although I actually can't see a lot because its not clear enough, I can just about see the partition and a haynet bobbing about. Would that not be considered legal?
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Mirrors are different form electronic screens and so come under different laws
 
There must be loads of people with CCTV in their trailers/lorries, you can buy the kits quite easily.

If I've used it, its just sort of been there, ignored, unless a bash is heard, then a glance tells you if the horse is up and ok, or down and having problems or otherwise distressed, so you can stop to sort them out.
 
It is along the same lines as having a close proximity(blind spot) camera fitted, as long as screens do not obstruct forward vision (sweep of the windscreen wipers is the definition of this) you are fine to have driving aids in the cab.
 
They are awesome you here a bang / crash quick glance tells you if you need to stop or if they just being a pain no stopping for no reason or driving along with horse upside down. Plus if there is a accident and horse goes loopy you can monitor from outside and decide we're safest to enter I had one in our small box at work transporting mainly sick lame and lazy tb's and it was a god send I'm getting one this month in my trailer as in my opinion you don't watch it all the time its if and when no more pole pulling over in random places trying to check the horses and no driving along worrying if horse is ok
 
Very interesting as a lot of new builds have in built cameras. We had one in our last lorry but found it could be distracting. Haven't got one in this lorry,
 
Interesting, friends of mine have a 6 horse box and the screen for the cctv is angled to the driver as it doubles as the blind spot reversing camera screen when the vehicle is put into reverse! Wonder how this would sit with the law...
 
Well when we got out Equitrek Sonic at work, the dealer said that there was a CCTV unit fitted but not connected (i.e. turned on!) as it was illegal to drive with it on when there is only a driver on board. He said what we chose to do with it was up to us!
 
I have a CCTV unit in mine, but its set as a rear view mirror/parking aid while driving, mounted in a way that does not obscure the windscreen. Pretty sure that's legal??

In mine, you have to press a button to switch to the horses, which I was told not to do while driving. If there's a commotion, pull over, stop the vehicle and then check with CCTV.

Have I got it wrong? Is confused now.... :confused:
 
Morganlafaye said:
I have a CCTV unit in mine, but its set as a rear view mirror/parking aid while driving, mounted in a way that does not obscure the windscreen. Pretty sure that's legal??

In mine, you have to press a button to switch to the horses, which I was told not to do while driving. If there's a commotion, pull over, stop the vehicle and then check with CCTV.

Have I got it wrong? Is confused now.... :confused:
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Whether its illegal or not if the screen is off seems to be a grey area IMO
 
Well as I've pointed out here before all double deckers have CCTV as do most coaches. Therefore there cannot be double standards in the law, plus buses have more road traffic accidents with pedestrians due to the nature of the job

I would happily defend myself in court saying that this is relaying the state of my vehicle and no different from having a mirror to show me the inside of the vehicle.

However I think those who have rigged theirs up to watch DVDs whilst driving should clearly be prosecuted

As others say I only look if their is a noise and will pull over if it needs investigation
 
Jen_Cots said:
Well as I've pointed out here before all double deckers have CCTV as do most coaches. Therefore there cannot be double standards in the law, plus buses have more road traffic accidents with pedestrians due to the nature of the job

I would happily defend myself in court saying that this is relaying the state of my vehicle and no different from having a mirror to show me the inside of the vehicle.

However I think those who have rigged theirs up to watch DVDs whilst driving should clearly be prosecuted

As others say I only look if their is a noise and will pull over if it needs investigation
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Buses have an exemption which must be applied for and granted by the relevant authority - so I am informed

It would be interesting if anyone could find a court case on this CCTV issue ...
 
Had a very nice and informative chat with Oakley horseboxes this morning :)

They designed the Eddie Stobart horsebox that was seen on TV

The screen is one which can be seen by both driver and passenger

The screen is a mutli purpose one which can be switched between satnav, reversing camera and internal camera.

If the sceen was only capable of showing the internal view then it would be installed to only be viewed by the passenger

If the driver chose to select the internal view then the driver has chosen to view it illegally if driving at the time

Oakley are well aware of the law surrounding this issue but in law are not responsible for what a driver does - that seems sensible and reasonable to me

All those drivers who think it is ok to view an internal CCTV camera showing the horses whilst driving are acting illegally and to back this up we now have both VOSA (enforcers) and Oakley (designers) saying the same
 
ROG said:
All those drivers who think it is ok to view an internal CCTV camera showing the horses whilst driving are acting illegally and to back this up we now have both VOSA (enforcers) and Oakley (designers) saying the same
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ROG you cannot say this - the law provides for the use of CCTV and this can be challenged in court.

You are saying that bus drivers, capable of killing lots of people if distracted (see recent news) "have special permission"

Please can you give me the extract from the Road Traffic Act for this?
 
Jen_Cots said:
ROG you cannot say this - the law provides for the use of CCTV and this can be challenged in court.

You are saying that bus drivers, capable of killing lots of people if distracted (see recent news) "have special permission"

Please can you give me the extract from the Road Traffic Act for this?
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Best way to find the exemption is to ask your local bus company as they will know where it is in the RTA or in a local exemption

The law regarding drivers watching CCTV in moving horseboxes is crystal clear
 
ROG said:
The law regarding drivers watching CCTV in moving horseboxes is crystal clear
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Actually horseboxes and buses are not specifically mentioned in the law

The law - Section 109 of The Road Vehicles (Construction and use) Regulations 1986

Television sets
109.—(1) No person shall drive, or cause or permit to be driven, a motor vehicle on a road, if the driver is in such a position as to be able to see, whether directly or by reflection, a television receiving apparatus or other cinematographic apparatus used to display anything other than information—

(a) about the state of the vehicle or its equipment; .
(b) about the location of the vehicle and the road on which it is located; .
(c) to assist the driver to see the road adjacent to the vehicle; or .
(d) to assist the driver to reach his destination. .
(2) In this regulation “television receiving apparatus” means any cathode ray tube carried on a vehicle and on which there can be displayed an image derived from a television broadcast, a recording or a camera or computer.

Web link: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/109/made

So under the law I am relaying the state of my vehicle, both inside and behind it when reversing

I also don't see an exemption for buses in the law.

In front of a jury - how can a cctv camera for buses, where driver can be almost a voyeur of passengers which are unlikely to be static like animals, be legal in unregulated vehicles traveling substantially faster than a limited 7.5t lorry be legal

versus

Me with my mirror substitute, with no audio or capacity for any other inputs and being soley in place for the welfare of my animals and to check the status of my vehicle (if my ramp falls off I want to know about it!)

Now if you were in a jury, with the above law laid out in s109 how would you vote?

Frankly I think my sat nav is more distracting and likely to cause an accident.
 
The state of the vehicle is the screen where it shows things like tyre pressures etc etc
Many modern vehicles have a screen which shows the oil pressure etc by accessing the computer usually from a control on the stalk

An individual can put there own interpretation on those regulations if they wish but there is no changing what the law is

The BIG mistake is trying to look at a law and then trying to make it fit what you want to do
 
Couldn't agree with you more

You have just tried to define "state", using your own interpretations - there are no examples in this act

Users should be aware of the EXACT law, which I have posted

ROG your view is one interpretation and at the end of the day you would be convicted under s109 and forum users must decide whether they can or cannot do that

My interpretation is that is legal, as its no different than using a big mirror to check the interior of your vehicle and less distracting than sat nav

ROG's view is that it is illegal, but accepts that bus drivers appear to have an exemption that does not appear in law

Make your choice and take your chances!

Again after having a horse with two severed hind legs following failure of an Ifor Williams trailer floor, and having my father flagged down by other motorists to be notified, I will always take this chance. I will also happily show these pictures to a jury and back up my case with evidence of other road users actively able to view cctv at high speeds (buses)
 
Jen_Cots said:
Couldn't agree with you more

You have just tried to define "state", using your own interpretations - there are no examples in this act

Users should be aware of the EXACT law, which I have posted

ROG your view is one interpretation and at the end of the day you would be convicted under s109 and forum users must decide whether they can or cannot do that

My interpretation is that is legal, as its no different than using a big mirror to check the interior of your vehicle and less distracting than sat nav

ROG's view is that it is illegal, but accepts that bus drivers appear to have an exemption that does not appear in law

Make your choice and take your chances!

Again after having a horse with two severed hind legs following failure of an Ifor Williams trailer floor, and having my father flagged down by other motorists to be notified, I will always take this chance. I will also happily show these pictures to a jury and back up my case with evidence of other road users actively able to view cctv at high speeds (buses)
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State of the VEHICLE is different to state of the LOAD so I have not made up an interpretation
 
ROG said:
State of the VEHICLE is different to state of the LOAD so I have not made up an interpretation
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There you go again...
International camera = ramp up or down = state of the vehicle

In fact if other road users had more care on the state of their vehicle which could encompass losing load, unbalanced load there would be less accidents

I can see where you are coming from, but I still think you are wrong and highly blinkered as you assume that cctv is only damaging and has no benefits

If one does not have cctv and say a horse falls over and is "hanging" itself, you are then breaking the law for animal cruelty.

I am proud to be British and hope that the law will embrace common sense, which would indicate that a static no sound cctv VDU is less damaging to other road users than a sat nav.
 
Jen_Cots said:
There you go again...
International camera = ramp up or down = state of the vehicle

In fact if other road users had more care on the state of their vehicle which could encompass losing load, unbalanced load there would be less accidents

I can see where you are coming from, but I still think you are wrong and highly blinkered as you assume that cctv is only damaging and has no benefits

If one does not have cctv and say a horse falls over and is "hanging" itself, you are then breaking the law for animal cruelty.

I am proud to be British and hope that the law will embrace common sense, which would indicate that a static no sound cctv VDU is less damaging to other road users than a sat nav.
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Whatever your beliefs are you are entitle to them and to air them if you wish :) but my role here is to put across the legalities and that is what I have done
 
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