CCTV in horseboxes: Email from HM Govt

[cp1980]

Just had an email from the Department of Transport, replying to a question I sent them regarding the precise legalities of using CCTV in a horsebox:

Thank you for your email dated 17 January to our IVS enquiries inbox. I have been asked to reply.

You can install a CCTV camera in to monitor horses whilst transit but you will need to comply with C&U regulations R109. In other words the camera must not be placed so that it is possible for the driver to see any of the images either directly or by reflection. Also it must not obscure the drivers view i.e. not on dashboard etc.

You can however position the CCTV so that a passenger can see it rather than the driver so you might want to consider that as an option.

You mention “about the state of the vehicle”. Our view is that “state of the vehicle” refers to the status of systems such as lights, brakes etc rather than monitoring livestock carried by the vehicle.

The Department cannot give an authoritative interpretation of the law; that is a matter for the courts. Enforcement of road traffic law is an operational matter for individual Chief Police Officers and their officers can issue verbal warnings, fixed penalty notices or report the motorist for formal prosecution


I think it is important to stress, at least from a legal point of view, that this interpretation is their opinion; only a court can decide if you would actually be breaking the law.

If any fancies shopping themselves to the local constabulary and then paying for a good defence in order to get the law more clearly defined in the favour of horse owners, I'm sure we'd all be grateful. ;-)

Another option would be to apply to the DfT for a derogation (which buses enjoy). Or petition to get the law changed with specific wording for horseboxes.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Interesting information, but just puzzled about the "state" of the vehicle and without understading the context you refered to this in - I cannot work out what they are referring too.

 

[3bh]

My understanding has always been - and will be - that you must remove the screen for plating, and use common sense in using it. I dont have it on 24/7, but if/when I hear crashing and banging in the back flick it on to check if it is life or death, or pull over and deal with.

 

[cp1980]

Interesting information, but just puzzled about the "state" of the vehicle and without understading the context you refered to this in - I cannot work out what they are referring too.

The wording of regulation 109 says CCTV can be used to monitor the 'state of the vehicle'. Quite reasonably, I asked if "state of the vehicle" could include checking the load being carried, such as livestock.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Arh i am with you now.

 

[Mariposa]

I'm mentioned before but we have CCTV in our lorry, the screen can be flicked between Satnav, CCTV inside and a reserving camera. I have always had the CCTV on whilst driving as I never knew it was illegal ( before I found out on here a while ago!)

Our lorry is off the road for the winter but needs to be plated in the spring, should I remove the screen for that?

 

[cp1980]

I'm mentioned before but we have CCTV in our lorry, the screen can be flicked between Satnav, CCTV inside and a reserving camera. I have always had the CCTV on whilst driving as I never knew it was illegal ( before I found out on here a while ago!)

Our lorry is off the road for the winter but needs to be plated in the spring, should I remove the screen for that?

I would be surprised if you failed a plating for that.

For the avoidance of doubt, you could disconnect the wire leading from the horse area camera and reconnect it when you need it, such as if the CCTV is being monitored by someone other than the driver (can tilt the monitor to a passenger seat?).

 

[ROG]

Thanks for that - it saves me from poaching it from you off the other site

 

[*hic*]

I'm mentioned before but we have CCTV in our lorry, the screen can be flicked between Satnav, CCTV inside and a reserving camera. I have always had the CCTV on whilst driving as I never knew it was illegal ( before I found out on here a while ago!)

Our lorry is off the road for the winter but needs to be plated in the spring, should I remove the screen for that?

Removing the screen for testing would depend on whether it is obstructing the driver's view, ie mounted on the dashboard.

 

[cp1980]

Thanks for that - it saves me from poaching it from you off the other site

Ha ha!

I couldn't resist beating you to it, ROG!

:-D

 

[ROG]

Ha ha!

I couldn't resist beating you to it, ROG!

:-D

Fair play

http://horseboxemporium.blogspot.co.uk/
A couple of things

B – a car licence, you can drive a car or van up to 3.5 tonnes (e.g. a transit van)
C1 – a licence to drive large van/small lorry up to 7.5 tonnes
C – a HGV licence

You listed the LGV categories then added the old HGV !!
You mentioned the HGV again further down your blog so perhaps you need to explain what the differences are between HGV & LGV such as ...

HGV4 & LGV C1 = rigid lorry between 3.5 to 7.5 tonnes with max trailer 750 kgs MAM
HGV3 = rigid lorry over 3.5 tonnes with max 2 axles and max trailer of 750 kgs MAM
HGV2 = rigid lorry over 3.5 tonnes with more than 2 axles and max trailer of 750 kgs MAM
LGV C = any rigid lorry and a max trailer of 750 kgs MAM

Also, ensure that your car is capable of towing your trailer, as you are not allowed to tow a trailer that is heavier than what the car manufacturer has stipulated.

You are allowed to because there is no law in regards to the recommended manufacturers towing capacity - only the GTW is law

A C1+E licence allows you to tow any size trailer, so long as the combined MAM (the tow vehicle MAM plus trailer MAM) is no more than 12000kg (12 tonnes).

Incorrect - the 12 tonnes is GTW or actual weight

A C1+E licence holder can drive a 7.5 tonner loaded to 6 tonnes with a trailer plated at 7.5 tonnes MAM but loaded to 6 tonnes making a total of 12 tonnes GTW

I think you got mixed up with the C1+E 107 licence restriction which does limit the total MAM to 8250 kgs

 

[cp1980]

Fair play

http://horseboxemporium.blogspot.co.uk/
A couple of things


You listed the LGV categories then added the old HGV !!
You mentioned the HGV again further down your blog so perhaps you need to explain what the differences are between HGV & LGV such as ...

HGV4 & LGV C1 = rigid lorry between 3.5 to 7.5 tonnes with max trailer 750 kgs MAM
HGV3 = rigid lorry over 3.5 tonnes with max 2 axles and max trailer of 750 kgs MAM
HGV2 = rigid lorry over 3.5 tonnes with more than 2 axles and max trailer of 750 kgs MAM
LGV C = any rigid lorry and a max trailer of 750 kgs MAM





You are allowed to because there is no law in regards to the recommended manufacturers towing capacity - only the GTW is law



Incorrect - the 12 tonnes is GTW or actual weight

A C1+E licence holder can drive a 7.5 tonner loaded to 6 tonnes with a trailer plated at 7.5 tonnes MAM but loaded to 6 tonnes making a total of 12 tonnes GTW

I think you got mixed up with the C1+E 107 licence restriction which does limit the total MAM to 8250 kgs

I'll make amendments in due course.

 

[Mariposa]

Removing the screen for testing would depend on whether it is obstructing the driver's view, ie mounted on the dashboard.

Its mounted on the dashboard - its Satnav and reversing viewing too so has to be viewable from the driver's side..

 

[cptrayes]

If any fancies shopping themselves to the local constabulary and then paying for a good defence in order to get the law more clearly defined in the favour of horse owners, I'm sure we'd all be grateful. ;-)

If you mean by this that you want horse box owners to be allowed to drive along with their eyes on their horses in the back instead of on the road in front, then I am very surprised that you think that would be a good idea.

I'd rather someone was on their mobile, and I totally hate that because it's so dangerous, but at least they have their eyes on the road.

 

[cp1980]

The requisite minor edits have been made - got to keep those pedants happy!

 

[cp1980]

If you mean by this that you want horse box owners to be allowed to drive along with their eyes on their horses in the back instead of on the road in front, then I am very surprised that you think that would be a good idea.

I'd rather someone was on their mobile, and I totally hate that because it's so dangerous, but at least they have their eyes on the road.

If you spend the entire time looking at your monitor then you ought to be booked for driving without being in proper control of the vehicle, just as if you spend the entire time with your eyes fixated on your Sat Nav, speedometer or radio display!

 

[cptrayes]

If you spend the entire time looking at your monitor then you ought to be booked for driving without being in proper control of the vehicle, just as if you spend the entire time with your eyes fixated on your Sat Nav, speedometer or radio display!

So you are coming up to a junction and a horse in the back starts kicking off and you can prevent yourself from even momentarily taking your attention off the road and seeing him rearing and boxing on the video, can you?

TV in the front of cars is banned for good reason. There's no difference in my book between that and CCTV in a lorry.

 

[cp1980]

So you are coming up to a junction and a horse in the back starts kicking off and you can prevent yourself from even momentarily taking your attention of the road and seeing him rearing and boxing on the video, can you?

That's a valid point.

With many devices, there are pros and cons.

Sat Navs, for example are very useful and, for me, help me drive more safely as I can plan my manoeuvres for junctions etc. in advance, though sometimes I have to momentarily take my eyes of the road.

My opinion is that the pros outweigh the cons.

 

[cptrayes]

Thanks for a reasoned answer, it's good to discuss. I have to admit I'm at an absolute loss to know what the benefits would be. I could have CCTV in a heartbeat, my OH would fit it in a jiffy for peanuts, but I can hear if my horses even lift a foot and put it down. Can you explain why you need it, to educate me ?

 

[Zerotolerance]

Hope they weren't watching the Eddie Stobart program the other night. When they were taking some of their horses racing, the driver was constantly checking the CCTV. Maybe they could afford to do a test case for us!

 

[cp1980]

Hope they weren't watching the Eddie Stobart program the other night. When they were taking some of their horses racing, the driver was constantly checking the CCTV. Maybe they could afford to do a test case for us!

LOLS!

They must have certainly set off some debate.

A test case would be handy, but to advocate breaking the law doesn't seem ethical.

There have been some examples in road transport law where people have chosen to break the law in order to have it amended.

A bloke who owned a camper van manufacturing company drove a camper van through Windsor Great Park in the 1960s. He got booked for driving a commercial vehicle through a restricted zone, but won a court case to have camper vans reclassified as cars. This had the effect of lowering the class of road tax or something, so he could sell more campers!

 

[Gingerwitch]

I like cctv for when i am in a que on the motorway on my own - especially in the summer - you can get a view if they are overheating/starting to be stressy - i also like to have a quick look when i am at lights if its really quiet .... especially if i am travelling a new horse.

 

[Nicnac]

Hope they weren't watching the Eddie Stobart program the other night. When they were taking some of their horses racing, the driver was constantly checking the CCTV. Maybe they could afford to do a test case for us!

There was a case recently where a foreign driver ploughed into the back of stationary cars on a motorway as was watching a movie on his iPad. Said iPad also set up for SatNav and he was able to switch between the two.

Very difficult to police whether a CCTV screen which is a SatNav and reversing aid also plays movies, does email etc.

Interesting discussion.....

 

[cp1980]

Thanks for a reasoned answer, it's good to discuss. I have to admit I'm at an absolute loss to know what the benefits would be. I could have CCTV in a heartbeat, my OH would fit it in a jiffy for peanuts, but I can hear if my horses even lift a foot and put it down. Can you explain why you need it, to educate me ?

My opinion is that it's a welfare issue. If your horse is in distress for some reason, I think you need to be able to find out as soon as possible, so you can - carefully and safely - find somewhere to park up and address the issue. Though it would still not be a substitute for checking your horse(s) during your regular breaks.

Ideally, a passenger could monitor the horse for you, but when that isn't possible, I see no reason as to why you can't allow a *sensible" driver to do it. After all, the driver is the one who gets booked if the horse is in distress.

I suppose there is a risk of the driver being distracted, but it if puts your mind at rest, bus drivers on service work are permitted to use CCTV to check on passengers, and in their line of work - busy town driving - they need to be absolutely on the ball. I can't imagine CCTV has caused too many accidents, otherwise their official derogation would have been withdrawn.

And I agree - it's good to have an objective and friendly discussion of ideas!

 

[Luci07]

So playing Devils advocate, I can't really see the difference between CCTV and SatNav in that instance then. Both mean you take your eyes off the road. However I consciously monitored how I drove to see how long I was on the SatNav and found that I was just incorporating it into all the checks you do without even thinking. So while everyone is pushing the "keep your eyes on the road" (not saying that is wrong!) but in reality your eyes will also be checking side and rear mirrors constantly as well as straight ahead meaning that you do not always with your eyes fixed on the road ahead. I find that now I have the habit of including sat nav, particularly as I upgraded to traffic news and find it incredibly useful to have advance warnings of queues. I would like to have CCTV for peace of mind.

 

[Mariposa]

I never even knew it was illegal before ROG let us know a few months ago! I drive our ponies to polo and always had the CCTV turned on, and when stopped at a junction I would also glance at it and make sure they were all ok.

I rarely actually use the SatNav function because I do find that distracting, but the CCTV of the ponies was helpful and I never found it distracting, if anything it made me drive even more carefully because you can see exactly how the ponies react to the turns/braking.

I am often in the lorry on my own so I will miss having it, but I don't want to risk getting points on my licence if I'm caught with it on!

 

[Zerotolerance]

The sad thing for us is that we've only just bought one. OH hasn't even got round to fitting it yet. We'd no idea they were illegal. It is a satnav/cctv/reversing camera combo, so maybe I'll just have to leave it switched to satnav or when reversing. We got it as I often drive the lorry alone, so the sat nav, into which you can plot lorry size, will be a godsend and our yard is in a really tiny lane where I have to reverse in and out of the drive - ok in the daylight but a nightmare in the dark with no street lights and high hedges all around - hence wanting reversing camera. Also, now we've got a meaty 18 ton Oakley (not a brand new one I hasten to add!) I can't actually feel if the horses start throwing themselves around whereas you'd know about it pretty quickly in our previous 7.5 ton lorry. One of ours decided to lay down on a recent quite short trip and we'd no idea he'd done so until we opened the back up! I'm pretty sure the new top end lorries come with this as standard, so wonder if the manufacturers even know (or care).

 

[ROG]

The sad thing for us is that we've only just bought one. OH hasn't even got round to fitting it yet. We'd no idea they were illegal. It is a satnav/cctv/reversing camera combo, so maybe I'll just have to leave it switched to satnav or when reversing.

Its only illegal if the driver has it on internal cctv when driving on a public road

If a passenger is being carried then the passenger can watch the internal cctv but that could get legally awkward if the driver can see it as well !!

Remember all I can do is point out the legalities and not what is best practice

 

[perfect11s]

Thanks for a reasoned answer, it's good to discuss. I have to admit I'm at an absolute loss to know what the benefits would be. I could have CCTV in a heartbeat, my OH would fit it in a jiffy for peanuts, but I can hear if my horses even lift a foot and put it down. Can you explain why you need it, to educate me ?

maybe So a bump or noise in the back can be safely discounted saving the driver being distracted by worrying if the horse /s have gone down got stuck etc , I would have a harder job justifying a Sat nav apart from them being a great indicator that the driver will be inept and drive like a cretin ...

 

[Luci07]

maybe So a bump or noise in the back can be safely discounted saving the driver being distracted by worrying if the horse /s have gone down got stuck etc , I would have a harder job justifying a Sat nav apart from them being a great indicator that the driver will be inept and drive like a cretin ...

Or if you drive many miles, use the traffic warning and it becomes a complete and utter godsend. I have only had mine for 6 months and it has meant we have been able to move around many long delays with much quicker notice than waiting for traffic announcements. As someone who is on the M25 a lot this makes my life a lot easier.