CDJ withdrawn from paris

meleeka said:
So nothing should be said, because nobody has stopped it? Next you'll be blaming the horse for not decking her if it wasn't happy! 😏

Everyone commenting that she's done her ban, or is an amazing rider, is slowly adding to the demise of the sport imo. Not just dressage either, but horse sport in general. I didn't think i'd ever see a day when a large proportion of the equestrian community are happy to excuse animal abuse, or pretend it didn't happen, because of who's doing it.
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I’m not excusing her and if you knew me in RL you would know how much I dislike her and what she has done to dressage. BUT if the judges didn’t reward the horses way of going in the test then the people who ride like this wouldn’t get the high marks they get now.. they are rewarding extravagant movements (and the names ) and until that stops we are fighting a losing battle for the welfare of the horses . I hardly watch high level dressage now as I am so disillusioned , but have recently seen Justin V. and Zonik Plus and really enjoyed the way he rode and also his warm up riding
 
PurpleSpots said:
It is so sad to see Glamourdale these days. I became aware of his when he was a 5yo I think, maybe before then, in any case it was at a time when he still showed alot of natural movement and dynamically looked like a horse. I remember thinking back then I hope he doesn't end up... 'Over-trained', shall we call it politely?

Sadly I now only feel devastation that this is the culmination of those years of being trained in the way he has been - pain and stress indicators, broken gaits, no joy, no beauty any more.
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I watched about 6 seconds and turned it off. I dont want to see a miserable horse being forced to do something it doesnt want to do.
 
splashgirl45 said:
I’m not excusing her and if you knew me in RL you would know how much I dislike her and what she has done to dressage. BUT if the judges didn’t reward the horses way of going in the test then the people who ride like this wouldn’t get the high marks they get now.. they are rewarding extravagant movements (and the names ) and until that stops we are fighting a losing battle for the welfare of the horses . I hardly watch high level dressage now as I am so disillusioned , but have recently seen Justin V. and Zonik Plus and really enjoyed the way he rode and also his warm up riding
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So then the riders should stop competing. Its not mandatory to take part. And if you do, then you are part of the problem.
 
IrishMilo said:
Lottie Fry was also filmed. The horse is so tense I can't even decipher what half the movements are supposed to be.

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A video was posted a few pages back of her in the ring and the horse was not going well I think that is what has set people off on the past few pages, it's very easy to forget these are big powerful fit horses and some of the " hanging of reins" comments people forget this, unless you've sat on one of these horses you just can't comprehend the power and of course they come up hyped up etc, so I personally think some of what's being seen and commented on ( not just here but all over the net )
 
Two things can be true at the same time, that CDJ is a particular issue, she gets under our skin because she promoted herself as kinder, more ethical. And it is also true that it is a witch hunt really, that, IMO, most riders at the top are absolutely not putting the horse first, do not understand how a horse moves...but they're operating in a system where money talks, and judges don't enforce the rules.

I DO have a problem with her, but I also have a problem in us focusing on her, and not on the cause. Helgstrand etc has/have a lot more to answer for, they're the money in the system, and it's people and organisations like him/his that has shifted the sport over the last 40 years from where it was almost always correct to somewhere where it's never correct.

As I keep saying, it's the fundamental shift in overall training, training in compression which is NOT horse centric, whether it's LDR/rollkur or whatever, that gives the background that makes abject abuse more likely.
 
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sbloom said:
Two things can be true at the same time, that CDJ is a particular issue, she gets under our skin because she promoted herself as kinder, more ethical. And it is also true that it is a witch hunt really, that, IMO, most riders at the top are absolutely not putting the horse first, do not understand how a horse moves...but they're operating in a system where money talks, and judges don't enforce the rules.

I DO have a problem with her, but I have a problem in us focusing on her, and not on the cause. Helgstrand etc has/have a lot more to answer for, they're the money in the system, and it's people and organisations like him/his that has shifted the sport over the last 40 years from where it was almost always correct to somewhere where it's never correct.

As I keep saying, it's the fundamental shift in overall training, training in compression which is NOT horse centric, whether it's LDR/rollkur or whatever, that gives the background that makes abject abuse more likely.
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I partially agree, but, do you not think that she could easily make this 'go away' by not riding like this (even if just in public!). When someone is so celebrated within a sport and held up as a shining example of good welfare standards, it seems a little disingenuous to not also use them as an example of poor standards when they do something negative.

And sometimes you need a recognisable name in order to convey a message. Most readers of those newspapers won't have heard of many dressage riders, except maybe CDJ from 2012. Any other name used in an article like this would not get as much attention.

I had some sympathy towards her previously with the media storm, despite hating what she did, but this time around she's been there, done that, took the punishment, knows what to expect... and yet carries on just as before. Lessons learnt? Apparently not.
 
I know it would never happen but really think it’s time to ban spurs whips and harsh bits at competition level at least. It is a fact that horses can and will perform intricate moves without any tack if they are compliant and trained correctly. How can it be okay to do more and more?? Surely we want to see the rider do less and less? I know I’m on cloud cuckoo land but just makes me sad.
 
IrishMilo said:
Lottie Fry was also filmed. The horse is so tense I can't even decipher what half the movements are supposed to be.

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Think some of it is, er.... pogo-hopping?

I'm not a dressage bod (so my opinion isn't valid) so I'm a bit confused as to why they seem to be riding the entire test as a warm up (I warm up until my horse is relaxed, supple and 'switched on'. But I know nothing.) and how they never seem to get a chance to stretch out properly. Are their heads going to fall off? Are they going to explode and yeet the riders into orbit? What's it all about?

And what's with CF smacking that horse on the wither? Dunno, this stressy-arge is beyond me. Should be stopped in its current form.
 
JenJ said:
I partially agree, but, do you not think that she could easily make this 'go away' by not riding like this (even if just in public!). When someone is so celebrated within a sport and held up as a shining example of good welfare standards, it seems a little disingenuous to not also use them as an example of poor standards when they do something negative.
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Because this would take her to a completely different paradigm. In my opinion, overall, she rides no worse nor better than the average rider at the top level. She doesn't even KNOW what she's doing wrong, we can point it out over and over but the defenders of these ways of riding absolutely think they're doing nothing wrong. I mean you've seen the defenders, right?

Sure, we can use her as an example, but it's an absolute waste of time until we have systemic change. She was developed BY that system and is a symptom, not the cause. The longer we keep whipping up hysteria about a handful of individual riders the longer the system has to double down and further protect itself.
 
Maddie Moo said:
I feel this comment summarises a lot of issues with modern dressage and horse sport…

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That sums up everything that is wrong- that we have allowed dressage judges to be so ill educated that they genuinely think that is how you train a horse to do piaffe. The blind opinion that just because someone has done it before they must be doing it correctly. The blindness to the stress caused to the horse by training it in this way. I really hope that we can create a system that educates our judges much, much better and create a judging system that rewards correctness, not just flash
 
Maddie Moo said:
I feel this comment summarises a lot of issues with modern dressage and horse sport…

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Precisely. Anyone who steps outside of this world is basically changing what they do for a living. I don't expect to see many takers, until we "force" them. We've all seen the horse abuse bingo, they have ALL the lip service defences.
 
Maddie Moo said:
I feel this comment summarises a lot of issues with modern dressage and horse sport…

View attachment 173315
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I don't know about dressage at a high level. I don't understand what it takes to get there.

I do, however, know what a stressed, compromised horse looks like. I also know what heavy-handed riding looks like. It doesn't matter - if this is how they are trained, then it needs to stop. The 'dancing' horses are trained with incredibly sharp bits and I think they have a better time of it! At least the pain is less sustained for them.

How many of the dressage fans think 'dancing' is ok? How about if bears do it? Or whales? So why does this version of dressage get a pass, when it is basically the same thing as far as the animal is concerned?
 
jhoward said:
A video was posted a few pages back of her in the ring and the horse was not going well I think that is what has set people off on the past few pages, it's very easy to forget these are big powerful fit horses and some of the " hanging of reins" comments people forget this, unless you've sat on one of these horses you just can't comprehend the power and of course they come up hyped up etc, so I personally think some of what's being seen and commented on ( not just here but all over the net )
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I have and no way could I have even dreamt of riding a high level dressage test. But it hanging off their teeth is the only way to do it then we need to stop doing it.

But seeing as theres people doing these tests in a neck rope, I dont beleive it is the only way.
 
SEL said:
With Annabella Pidgley who is dating the Helgestrand son, so given she's based at their yard I'm assuming he's there too
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Yep. Riding alot of their horses too and training with them.
Recently took part in an IW clinic in the US.

Pumpkin did an FEI World Cup GP 2 weeks ago and got 70% and 7th.
Oh and got 71% in both the GP and GPSp in early December.
 
Parrotperson said:
We all know that Alive and Kicking is 50% owned by CH. And I dint think he kept her close for a reason. She had to learned all that behaviour somewhere……..
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Are you saying she learnt that behaviour from Carl Hester? Do you have any proof whatsoever of that accusation…
Because having followed him for years and watched him riding a friends horse, plus seeing how every one of his varied pets including birds of all types plus of course how his horses come to him both whilst loose in fields and in their stables I do not believe he has a bad bone in his body….
 
Marshpiper said:
Are you saying she learnt that behaviour from Carl Hester? Do you have any proof whatsoever of that accusation…
Because having followed him for years and watched him riding a friends horse, plus seeing how every one of his varied pets including birds of all types plus of course how his horses come to him both whilst loose in fields and in their stables I do not believe he has a bad bone in his body….
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I find it impossible to believe he didn't know what went on. If he didn't condone it why did he allow it☹️
 
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