CDJ withdrawn from paris

Burnttoast said:
Here are some quite astonishing oral (and other) conflict behaviours very recently from a horse that's clearly struggling on multiple fronts. At the beginning, the mouth is gaping even when the reins are given entirely for significant periods. Strikes me as a complete rejection by this poor horse of what he's being expected to do.

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I am more sad to see that it's Ingrid Klimke in that clip than actually seeing that clip :( .

I'm sadly used to seeing that sort of thing from dressage these days - but to see it from her... So very disappointing.

To me, Vayron's mouth is just silently saying 'Aaaaaaaaaarrrggghhh' :( .
 
PurpleSpots said:
I am more sad to see that it's Ingrid Klimke in that clip than actually seeing that clip :( .

I'm sadly used to seeing that sort of thing from dressage these days - but to see it from her... So very disappointing.

To me, Vayron's mouth is just silently saying 'Aaaaaaaaaarrrggghhh' :( .
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It's been said often enough that if horses vocalised like dogs none of this stuff would be happening to them.
 
In that klimke video the weymouth bradoon is very high

I never liked klimke when he was at his height, something was not quite right about it

Years after i read another interview he did, when challenged that certain things were not quite performed as they should be, correctly, he actually said. ' i like to win, i do what it takes to win'
 
PurpleSpots said:
I am more sad to see that it's Ingrid Klimke in that clip than actually seeing that clip :( .

I'm sadly used to seeing that sort of thing from dressage these days - but to see it from her... So very disappointing.

To me, Vayron's mouth is just silently saying 'Aaaaaaaaaarrrggghhh' :( .
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Was just about to say the same thing, I had hoped she was better than that whether it be eventing or pure dressage. When I got my ex racer as a teenager and had to pretty much restart her from scratch Reiner Klimkes book was my absolute bible, it preached and preached about long and low soft and supple so also very disappointed to read Tristars comment above about him. The whole world and everyone in it, it seems just sucks 😕
 
Dopeydapple said:
Was just about to say the same thing, I had hoped she was better than that whether it be eventing or pure dressage. When I got my ex racer as a teenager and had to pretty much restart her from scratch Reiner Klimkes book was my absolute bible, it preached and preached about long and low soft and supple so also very disappointed to read Tristars comment above about him. The whole world and everyone in it, it seems just sucks 😕
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I read something on a forum/board somewhere that was extremely off-putting about Reiner Klimke I think at the LA Olympics specifically, but my memory of what, where and who said it is so hazy that I don't want to speculate. But it left a bad taste along these lines.
 
PurpleSpots said:
I am more sad to see that it's Ingrid Klimke in that clip than actually seeing that clip :( .

I'm sadly used to seeing that sort of thing from dressage these days - but to see it from her... So very disappointing.

To me, Vayron's mouth is just silently saying 'Aaaaaaaaaarrrggghhh' :( .
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Wasn’t Vayron a Heigstrand trained horse? That might explain why the horse is so tense, I’ve always liked the way Ingrid rides, shame she is riding a roughly trained horse
 
I too am gutted to see Ingrid on a horse who is so tense.

I do like that ingid still doesn't have blocks on her saddle, and you never see her 'water-skiing' on the horses' mouth. I think her hands do look 'relatively' forward and soft? I'm not sure if she is wearing spurs or not in this clip, but she is using her heels a lot :( The horse is clearly tense and unhappy - I wish she had just acknowledged this and retired, instead of battling through.
 
Cragrat said:
I too am gutted to see Ingrid on a horse who is so tense.

I do like that ingid still doesn't have blocks on her saddle, and you never see her 'water-skiing' on the horses' mouth. I think her hands do look 'relatively' forward and soft? I'm not sure if she is wearing spurs or not in this clip, but she is using her heels a lot :( The horse is clearly tense and unhappy - I wish she had just acknowledged this and retired, instead of battling through.
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Agree her hands aren't heavy, but she is using long spurs. They're a bit easier to spot later on in the video.

That horse looks a long way from happy.
 
Cragrat said:
I too am gutted to see Ingrid on a horse who is so tense.

I do like that ingid still doesn't have blocks on her saddle, and you never see her 'water-skiing' on the horses' mouth. I think her hands do look 'relatively' forward and soft? I'm not sure if she is wearing spurs or not in this clip, but she is using her heels a lot :( The horse is clearly tense and unhappy - I wish she had just acknowledged this and retired, instead of battling through.
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That's what so extraordinary about this clip - she doesn't have a death grip but the horse has clearly had enough and no one is getting the message. It looks like he hates having a mouthful of metal (frankly, who can blame him) regardless of what's being done with it. If he were mine I would probably be putting him in a nice interesting field with a couple of shetties for a year and then seeing if he's interested again (actually, I personally wouldn't do the second part at all)
 
Dopeydapple said:
Was just about to say the same thing, I had hoped she was better than that whether it be eventing or pure dressage. When I got my ex racer as a teenager and had to pretty much restart her from scratch Reiner Klimkes book was my absolute bible, it preached and preached about long and low soft and supple so also very disappointed to read Tristars comment above about him. The whole world and everyone in it, it seems just sucks 😕
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Don't loose hope!

You did the right thing even as a teenager, you should be proud of that
 
bonny said:
And just have everyone else wait and hope for the best ?
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The thing is some of those horses are so young, expecting them to be ridden, trained, carted about the country or world at their age is just too much for some or all of them.

At their age they are still babies, immature physically and mentally, asking young tbs too much to soon, it's a lot to process

Perhaps they should still be in a field, grazing, growing and playing with their mates

It's not surprising they freeze when 59 people try to stuff them in a metal crate
 
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Ingrid Klimke😢😢. A rider meant to be one of the good ones.

Are there any truly ‘good ones’.

My team and I were discussing using 2 new ‘big name’ riders to instruct on our camps. Did a bit of background checking on one and a former groom of theirs gave me a first person account of horrific behind closed doors abuse. A colleague went to a weekend clinic with the other name. Loved the teaching but then saw the trainer leather a horse after the lesson. Not even in the moment the horse was refusing. Just sheer temper afterwards. Both obviously off our list! But do they all do it? I can only assume the aim is for the horse to be too afraid of reprisal to ever nap, refuse, run out etc. That guy who deliberately rode his horse into a wing so it couldn’t jump them beat him up was presumably trying to tell the horse that it better find a way over the jump no matter how badly presented - or else!

So I can see the logic in SJ. Effective even if despicable. But how can fear ever improve dressage?
 
Ambers Echo said:
Ingrid Klimke😢😢. A rider meant to be one of the good ones.

Are there any truly ‘good ones’.

My team and I were discussing using 2 new ‘big name’ riders to instruct on our camps. Did a bit of background checking on one and a former groom of theirs gave me a first person account of horrific behind closed doors abuse. A colleague went to a weekend clinic with the other name. Loved the teaching but then saw the trainer leather a horse after the lesson. Not even in the moment the horse was refusing. Just sheer temper afterwards. Both obviously off our list! But do they all do it? I can only assume the aim is for the horse to be too afraid of reprisal to ever nap, refuse, run out etc. That guy who deliberately rode his horse into a wing so it couldn’t jump them beat him up was presumably trying to tell the horse that it better find a way over the jump no matter how badly presented - or else!

So I can see the logic in SJ. Effective even if despicable. But how can fear ever improve dressage?
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I'm not trying to put the onus on you but did you tell (or consider telling) the second one (given the first one was technically hearsay) that you had been considering employing them but had decided against and why? These people need to hear that occasionally.
 
Both are hearsay - though I trust both sources. It’s up to them how they address it. Both have responded in ways that feel safe for them but I don’t want to go into that. Feels inappropriate for me to share more as not my horses and I wasn’t the direct witness either time.
 
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