CDJ withdrawn from paris

[I'm Dun]

There is no point in having a mechanism for punishment if that doesn't mean the wrong doer is then able to restart their life. What are people suggesting, that she must give up working with horses and retrain in horticulture?

yes, if I had done that I would have lost my project manager job. Gross misconduct out the door. Which just makes it even worse that shes still got the same job with the horses she abused.

All this has done is show people they need to be smarter about videos, and if they do get caught, just brazen it out and it will go away within a year.

 

[I'm Dun]

Interestingly, it’s the equestrian community welcoming her back so warmly, not the general public.
I think sometimes horses are fair game to equestrians. We would be horrified at the thought of hitting a dog with a whip to get what we want out of them, but it’s ok with a horse in the right circumstances. Hmm.

Horses stay silent when pain is inflicted and its done them no favours at all.

 

[BurntontheoutsideTurkey]

There is no point in having a mechanism for punishment if that doesn't mean the wrong doer is then able to restart their life. What are people suggesting, that she must give up working with horses and retrain in horticulture?

A one-strike policy in sports using animals seems fair enough, doesn't it? I mean it's not as if people don't know you're not really supposed to wallop them. The world certainly won't come to an end with fewer dressage riders, or whatever they happen to be.

 

[Nancykitt]

Yes. If a teacher beat a student, I wouldn’t expect them to walk right back into it nor if a dog walker beat a dog.

But when it comes to horses, many think it’s okay.

As soon as a teacher hits a pupil, it's effectively a career-ending move. Even if they were goaded. I know I've mentioned this before, but there are recent examples of teachers being banned by the Teacher Regulation Agency for this sort of thing. Very often they are not just banned from teaching, they are banned from any work - including voluntary work - with children and young people.
We make this very clear when preparing teachers for the job. There is really no excuse, no mitigation, nothing will save you. Self-control is paramount. The official line is that you strike a child once and you have shown yourself to be untrustworthy. Those who are banned for life have to find another way of making a living.

In contrast, those who cause pain and suffering to animals are, relatively speaking, often just mildly inconvenienced. There have been several threads on the forum recently where appalling behaviour from riders/trainers/producers has been discussed. It's all too common and the sanctions, in my view, are rarely enough. Additionally, the fact that most of these people don't even acknowledge that what they have done is appalling (and often make up some silly excuse about how they're doing the horse a favour by treating it harshly) makes me very angry indeed.

She’s done her time, I get that, but I don’t feel the same about watching her anymore.

Neither do I.
I just can't square it up. The person I saw riding Valegro at Olympia - one who extolled the virtues of treating horses with compassion - is the same person who complained that the whip she was holding wasn't all that good for hitting the horse.

Even if she'd been banned from competing for many more years, I don't think it would have changed my current perception of her.

 

[Nancykitt]

A one-strike policy in sports using animals seems fair enough, doesn't it? I mean it's not as if people don't know you're not really supposed to wallop them. The world certainly won't come to an end with fewer dressage riders, or whatever they happen to be.

Exactly. There are many ways to make a living. Professional riders/trainers may be incredibly skilled but they are still, in my view, very fortunate to have such an amazing way of earning a living. It is a privilege. And it doesn't give them the right to do awful things to animals.

As BT has said, it's not as if we have a dire shortage of riders in any discipline.
What's more important is that everyone understands that deliberately causing suffering is likely to result in losing your livelihood.
I have mixed views about deterrents in general but I honestly think that it would mean some people would think twice. They likelihood of being photographed/filmed is high these days and they know this.

 

[tristars]

What she said was you can't hit em hard enough with this whip

Does that mean if you hit em harder they understand easier

And if you jab holes on their sides and draw blood perhaps that helps too

And if the horse disagrees with this method just jab em in the gob

 

[BurntontheoutsideTurkey]

Exactly. There are many ways to make a living. Professional riders/trainers may be incredibly skilled but they are still, in my view, very fortunate to have such an amazing way of earning a living. It is a privilege. And it doesn't give them the right to do awful things to animals.

As BT has said, it's not as if we have a dire shortage of riders in any discipline.
What's more important is that everyone understands that deliberately causing suffering is likely to result in losing your livelihood.
I have mixed views about deterrents in general but I honestly think that it would mean some people would think twice. They likelihood of being photographed/filmed is high these days and they know this.

Quite - the fact that it's an enormous privilege to be able to work with these animals (and to have the backing and the talent to be successful) does seem entirely lost on some professionals.

 

[scats]

I also think that if, say, a random dealer was filmed doing what CDJ did, there’s not a person on this forum who would think they should be allowed to continue to have anything to do with horses. I doubt any person out there would be saying “oh well, he’s done his punishment, leave him alone now”

It’s a lot easier to forgive and forget when it’s a talented rider who we have watched ride to victory on many occasions…

 

[tristars]

But if she was truly talented

Would she have needed to do what she did

Oh the illusions

 

[equinerebel]

I still see people having more issue with someone filming and releasing the footage than they do the person whipping a horse and complaining the whip being used didn’t hit them hard enough.

Horses are uniquely treated as such commodities.

People like her because she wins, not because she respects horses or even treats them well.

Sad.

 

[GSD Woman]

(probably including other professional level sports) where particularly bad conduct would mean actually no you would not be allowed/welcomed back with open arms.

In the USA that also tends to be true. Michael Vick and his treatment of his pit bulls. He was supposed to never own a dog again and yet has had at least one Malinois. Sport stars who rape women and beat people, it raises a small stink and then seems to be forgotten. That is, unless charges are pressed.

Horses stay silent when pain is inflicted and it's done them no favours at all.

I do wish they wouldn't. I'm guessing that any rebellion has been beaten out of them.
Too bad they can't pull a certain type of dog behaviour and come up the leash at unfair correction and punishment.

 

[millikins]

Been at work all day so haven't replied.
I do not like SM pile ons, CDJ has been found guilty by her governing body and punished, she has undergone a financial loss and brought her sport into disrepute.
If people think this is insufficient that's their right: putting their money where their mouth is by declining to write for a judge, refuse to pay for tickets to watch or lobby the FEI seems an ethical stand.
Piling in on SM, often anonymously, is an unappetizing spectacle.

 

[meleeka]

Been at work all day so haven't replied.
I do not like SM pile ons, CDJ has been found guilty by her governing body and punished, she has undergone a financial loss and brought her sport into disrepute.
If people think this is insufficient that's their right: putting their money where their mouth is by declining to write for a judge, refuse to pay for tickets to watch or lobby the FEI seems an ethical stand.
Piling in on SM, often anonymously, is an unappetizing spectacle.

I don't see a pile on. I've seen many more comments on SM supporting her than not. I assume,as this is a forum, we are still allowed to discuss current affairs involving people who've been found guilty of something?

 

[smolmaus]

Yeah just nobody tag her

 

[equinerebel]

I do not like SM pile ons

It’s not a pile on, it’s people discussing their feelings about her return to top level sport and how it’s been presented in the media (with subsequent reactions)

 

[millikins]

It’s not a pile on, it’s people discussing their feelings about her return to top level sport and how it’s been presented in the media (with subsequent reactions)

If you say so.

 

[Nancykitt]

When the original video first surfaced there were plenty of people defending her even then - so it’s hardly surprising that there are people who are very pleased to see her back competing.
However, I was appalled and, as a big fan of hers, I was incredibly disappointed. It felt like she was a fraud, someone who had seemingly promoted kindness in training but showed that, like others, she was certainly not kind herself. People may say she’s paid for what she did & doesn’t deserve any negativity- but what about the horse in the video? Did that horse ‘deserve’ to be treated in that way?
Is everyone who is happy to forgive & forget totally sure that she can be 100% trusted not to do it again?

I don’t consider it a pile-on; she will no doubt be aware that some people were always on her side and would excuse her behaviour, while others disapproved at the time but now believe that she has paid the price and deserves another chance.

She is also aware, I’m sure, that there are people like me who are tired of hearing excuses and would like much less tolerance of cruelty.

 

[Dave's Mam]

After walloping the horse in the video, she said "This one's shit for hitting them with".
She obviously has a better whip, done it before, hit harder, got better response (for her). This is not a "mistake". It's planned abuse of the horse. Pre meditated. I can't forgive her.
She told us she was on the horses' side. She wasn't.

 

[Dave's Mam]

She told us she was on the horses' side. She wasn't.

& to me this is nearly as bad as how she treated the horses, she treated her supporters the same way. I feel completely let down by someone I thought was a great ambassador for horse sport.
Not so great at all.

 

[pistolpete]

I just dont trust anything to do with dressage anymore. Horrible hateful people causing suffering and bad treatment of animals. Appalling all round.

 

[equinerebel]

If you say so.

What posts have made you think otherwise?

People largely agreeing with each other does not equal a “pile on”.

 

[equinerebel]

After walloping the horse in the video, she said "This one's shit for hitting them with".

It is so, so sad.

Would those saying “she has served her time” be happy to send their own horses to her? If so, is that because you genuinely think she’s a changed woman who wouldn’t beat *your* horse, or because you just want your horses to win and don’t give a sh*t how that happens?

 

[ramsaybailey]

Definitely havent seen a SM pile on, quite the opposite. I also highly doubt CDJ would spend her time scrolling through comments under articles on Facebook.

 

[ramsaybailey]

It is so, so sad.

Would those saying “she has served her time” be happy to send their own horses to her? If so, is that because you genuinely think she’s a changed woman who wouldn’t beat *your* horse, or because you just want your horses to win and don’t give a sh*t how that happens?

Definitely a question people should be asking themselves!

As others have said this wouldn't happen in other sports/professions

I don't understand why anyone thinks that anybody that abused animals for sport deserves another chance. Just get another job. Yes it would be difficult for them.but surely that's a price to pay.

'She has served her time' is

 

[equinerebel]

It’s literally no other domesticated animal tho. If this were a dog, people wouldn’t be giving her another chance.

It’s only horses, and people need to ask themselves why they’re okay seeing horses routinely hit with whips and physically, emotionally and mentally forced into awful shapes when seeing that happen to any other animal would greatly upset them.

 

[BurntontheoutsideTurkey]

A few years ago I briefly helped on a local dressage yard run by a couple. The man had a GP horse that appeared to love him - when I brought him in he would drag me up to his owner in the yard. But the owner (I subsequently discovered) was in the habit of taking him into the lunge pen and thrashing him with a schooling whip if he displeased him. So I wondered how many people who are like this with horses a) are just sadists b) 'love' the willingness of horses to overlook their basest flaws, rather than loving horses for themselves c) don't care either way but like having a malleable vehicle for professional success. Either way it's not a good look

One thing I am sure of these days, though I loved riding and made ethical compromises when I was younger and more stupid, is that you can't both love horses for their essential selves and then insist they become other than their essential selves so you can do stuff with them.

 

[Goldenstar]

I agree with those that say they won’t be able to see her with the same eyes . I won’t .
But she was always going to be back at international competition had she been found guilty of a criminal offence it should might have been different .

 

[tristars]

I agree with those that say they won’t be able to see her with the same eyes . I won’t .
But she was always going to be back at international competition had she been found guilty of a criminal offence it should might have been different .

G s. When you worked for the rspca if someone beat a dog like that would the rspca have prosecuted them,

 

[tristars]

A few years ago I briefly helped on a local dressage yard run by a couple. The man had a GP horse that appeared to love him - when I brought him in he would drag me up to his owner in the yard. But the owner (I subsequently discovered) was in the habit of taking him into the lunge pen and thrashing him with a schooling whip if he displeased him. So I wondered how many people who are like this with horses a) are just sadists b) 'love' the willingness of horses to overlook their basest flaws, rather than loving horses for themselves c) don't care either way but like having a malleable vehicle for professional success. Either way it's not a good look

One thing I am sure of these days, though I loved riding and made ethical compromises when I was younger and more stupid, is that you can't both love horses for their essential selves and then insist they become other than their essential selves so you can do stuff with them.

One thing I have discovered is that when you let them be themselves and grow, put them first, before scores, rosettes etc. When you find what makes tick they will pass your expectations, if you follow their lead and use humility instead of ambition you learn its all about the horse and making yourself a better rider, person

 

[tristars]

If you say so.

To be honest I feel awful, torn expressing what I see and feel and have been torn to shreds on this forum before now.

However I have to put the horses welfare above all else and it's got to the point of huge changes being needed

I'm with nancykitt on this one its about the horse in that video

Everytime a horse dies racing, usually young, or competitive abuse is exposed its for us to show to governing bodies that we find it unacceptable if that's how we feel

Yes it's ugly very ugly, the feelings around all this are painful and difficult, but horses are such special creatures and we want the best for them, something better for the future

Charlotte has probably shown conclusively, spectacularly that the system is at fault as it stands today