CDJ withdrawn from paris

Jellymoon said:
It’s like the professionals have closed ranks around her. Why? What are they all hiding?

I just cannot trust any of them now, and
now we have to support them all at the Olympics.
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Because those methods are a little closer to the truth than they would like the rest of us to know.

Someone demonstrated one of these methods on my horse in a lesson, while telling me who they had got it from. I was extremely shocked and it hugely changed my opinion of a well known person.
I told the instructor to stop because I didn’t like it. I didn’t return.

That killed dressage for me, if I’m honest. I just decided that if that was what it takes, I’m out. I haven’t set foot in a dressage arena since.
 
ramsaybailey said:
Out if interest did they elaborate? On what they thought CDJ was going ro achieve with that 'technique'? Genuinely very curious
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I think when you watch high profile dressage, it's clear what they achieve. All those horses we see with flinging legs, that don't even move in time with the rest of the horse, can't have got there with gentle training and hours of practice. All the time that is being marked highly, there's plenty to be gained from it.
 
I stand to be corrected (and I wish Cortez was still here) but in 'classical' dressage a training from the ground technique going back centuries (not that all old things are good, more modern knowledge is mainly improving things) is to tap the hindleg slightly with a light cane to teach/improve the piaffe/passage type movements.

This is meant to be like teaching a puppy to 'sit' by pushing lightly down on it's backside. Note the 'gentle pushing', not a great hard wallop.

In that sense I think what CDJ was doing was based on a training 'technique' of light taps on the hind legs..... however she has progressed that 'technique' to become hard wallops with a cutting whip. Instead of the one or two taps of the classical school she had drifted to 24 taps. A sign of these times of wanting quick results.

I've said before on this thread that what she did wasn't bad solely because of the frequency and hardness of the hits, it was that the horse plainly didn't understand what it was being asked to do.

With any animal that you are trying to train to do something by all means use your 'preferred' technique first (if it is a humane one) - but if that doesn't work because the animal (dog/horse/whatever) isn't understanding then either leave off that lesson for that day and try again another time, or preferably try another technique!

At the same time an assessment should be made by the trainer as to whether the horse is actually physically capable of performing the movement required, especially if it involves 'sitting' the hindquarters, which requires the horse to be physically strong enough behind the saddle to do this. With dressage warmblood breeding those horses can take up to age 8 to be physically mature enough to do this....

Again, by all means try asking when they are younger - some will be willing and able and others not. A good trainer should train, humanely, what is in front of them on the day and not just go 'by the book' and train almost by rote or for a demanding owner who comes in with the brief that 'I want to do passage today'.

Don't forget in the original video the owner was in the gallery - filming and laughing. I'll never be able to watch her, Helgstrand or many others in the same way again - but some blame also lies with owners who are complicit by omission or support.
 
reynold said:
....

This is meant to be like teaching a puppy to 'sit' by pushing lightly down on it's backside. Note the 'gentle pushing', not a great hard wallop.

In that sense I think what CDJ was doing was based on a training 'technique' of light taps on the hind legs..... however she has progressed that 'technique' to become hard wallops with a cutting whip. Instead of the one or two taps of the classical school she had drifted to 24 taps. A sign of these times of wanting quick results.

....

Don't forget in the original video the owner was in the gallery - filming and laughing. I'll never be able to watch her, Helgstrand or many others in the same way again - but some blame also lies with owners who are complicit by omission or support.
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I went to puppy classes 3 years ago and am starting with a new puppy now and the pushing lightly isn't done any more but instead a lure of a treat is used above the nose.

I've no idea if there is another way to achieve the movement without the light tapping (I'm a happy hacker and very low level rider).

Owners need to stand up and advocate for their horses. I know I will now but when I was younger I was of the naive opinion that a top rider knows what they're doing whereas I now know better and can do better. Back then I was far too quiet and shy to stick up for anyone whereas now I'm an old, grumpy bag.
 
I had a trainer who rode at high level hit my young horse when he wouldn't stand to be mounted. I never used him again.
With my now horse who always had riders legged up I have gone from struggling to mount to a stock still horse using treats and kindness BUT it takes time.
People want immediate results and that is the crux of the pro issue. Owners are also to blame. Seeing 5 year olds doing advanced movements on SM is heartbreaking.
 
scats said:
Because those methods are a little closer to the truth than they would like the rest of us to know.

Someone demonstrated one of these methods on my horse in a lesson, while telling me who they had got it from. I was extremely shocked and it hugely changed my opinion of a well known person.
I told the instructor to stop because I didn’t like it. I didn’t return.

That killed dressage for me, if I’m honest. I just decided that if that was what it takes, I’m out. I haven’t set foot in a dressage arena since.
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I feel the same way. So when certain people say, you shouldn't criticise if you've never ridden at that level, I'd say I'm glad I never have, if that's what you have to do to get there.
 
suestowford said:
I feel the same way. So when certain people say, you shouldn't criticise if you've never ridden at that level, I'd say I'm glad I never have, if that's what you have to do to get there.
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Yeah, it's like someone breaking Olympic records using steroids or AI "artists" generating pictures with prompts and expecting the same respect as those who worked for it. I have no interest in the "product" if that's how you got there. The end result is worse than garbage if you used violence and force and nasty shortcuts to get it.
 
fidleyspromise said:
I've no idea if there is another way to achieve the movement without the light tapping (I'm a happy hacker and very low level rider).
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There absolutely is. If we think of piaffe as it should be, the ultimate in collection, then we can ask for it that way. I can only talk from theory, but Science of Motion looks at whole body, tensegrity approaches, and argues that the initiation of the movement should not be initiated by the legs and, inevitably, tapping the legs teaches the horse a snatch motion, instead of collecting and diagonalising the walk. I don't know what the SRS used originally, it may be in their books that they used a tapping whip, but we do know more than we did then (fascia being a key part) and the SOM approach makes much more sense to me.

This is a fascinating discussion on piaffe and whether there is, or should be, actual suspension:

https://www.facebook.com/annie.dillon.92/posts/pfbid02hQkXXHY3tsvws9ZHCdDBt9GFUjPFNLtLUsUVtcncFq9ZVHWEfasRBFaaSJkXJg5el
 
A bit sad to see that H&H has it's 3rd article this week about CDJ. I refuse to link to it here as I don't want to expand their coverage of her by adding to 'clicks' on positive articles about her.

It purports to go into details about the horse(s) she now rides now that her ban is finished.

It seems that the people who are supporting and cheering her on now that she's competing again are being supported by the UK's premier equestrian publication.

Some of us aren't forgetting the abuse she was suspended for.

I overall support H&H, pay for a print subscription and have done for decades, plus being grateful for them providing this forum free of charge. On the issue of publicising CDJ so much I am totally opposed.
 
equinerebel said:
It’s literally no other domesticated animal tho. If this were a dog, people wouldn’t be giving her another chance.

It’s only horses, and people need to ask themselves why they’re okay seeing horses routinely hit with whips and physically, emotionally and mentally forced into awful shapes when seeing that happen to any other animal would greatly upset them.
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This is an assumption on the non horsey public but if they see whips being used to smack a horse to cross the finish line or get over a jump on tv by professionals then they may assume that whipping horses is ok.

As for horse people who should know the signs of pain and stress, who should be invested in welfare and care of horses, who maintain they adore their animals I have no idea how they can make excuses or condone it.
 
reynold said:
It seems that the people who are supporting and cheering her on now that she's competing again are being supported by the UK's premier equestrian publication.

Some of us aren't forgetting the abuse she was suspended for.
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Someone on the FB page said they thought it was hypocritical of H&H to publishing the ‘showing producer horse abuse’ story while simultaneously cheering on CDJ. They’ve got a point.
 
reynold said:
I stand to be corrected (and I wish Cortez was still here) but in 'classical' dressage a training from the ground technique going back centuries (not that all old things are good, more modern knowledge is mainly improving things) is to tap the hindleg slightly with a light cane to teach/improve the piaffe/passage type movements.

This is meant to be like teaching a puppy to 'sit' by pushing lightly down on it's backside. Note the 'gentle pushing', not a great hard wallop.

In that sense I think what CDJ was doing was based on a training 'technique' of light taps on the hind legs..... however she has progressed that 'technique' to become hard wallops with a cutting whip. Instead of the one or two taps of the classical school she had drifted to 24 taps. A sign of these times of wanting quick results.
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I am reluctant to comment because I have actually trained horses to Grand Prix, and I'm aware this automatically makes me a monster to a lot of people commenting on this thread, but I'm going to give it a go. I dont agree that what was done in that infamous CDJ video has any relation to light tapping to encourage piaffe or passage, for a start the horse was in canter but primarily because that video showed not one ounce of timing, feel or anything positive the horse could understand, the video was just abuse, simple as that, all the horse could possibly learn from that treatment was pain, fear and confusion.

Not every horse has read the book and sometimes you need to think differently to help understanding, so sometimes with some horses a light tap can help teach piaffe, but it tends to reduce the movement to a learnt trick rather than the ultimate of collection with a lowered croup that it is supposed to be, and therefore it should be achieved through years and years of transitions, half halts and collection.

There are no question horrible abusive dressage riders, as sadly, there are horrible abusive riders in every single thing connected with horses, from hacking to polo and everything in between, but it doesnt mean that every rider, dressage or otherwise is an abusive monster.
 
daffy44 said:
I am reluctant to comment because I have actually trained horses to Grand Prix, and I'm aware this automatically makes me a monster to a lot of people commenting on this thread, but I'm going to give it a go. I dont agree that what was done in that infamous CDJ video has any relation to light tapping to encourage piaffe or passage, for a start the horse was in canter but primarily because that video showed not one ounce of timing, feel or anything positive the horse could understand, the video was just abuse, simple as that, all the horse could possibly learn from that treatment was pain, fear and confusion.

Not every horse has read the book and sometimes you need to think differently to help understanding, so sometimes with some horses a light tap can help teach piaffe, but it tends to reduce the movement to a learnt trick rather than the ultimate of collection with a lowered croup that it is supposed to be, and therefore it should be achieved through years and years of transitions, half halts and collection.

There are no question horrible abusive dressage riders, as sadly, there are horrible abusive riders in every single thing connected with horses, from hacking to polo and everything in between, but it doesnt mean that every rider, dressage or otherwise is an abusive monster.
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Brilliant post
 
daffy44 said:
I am reluctant to comment because I have actually trained horses to Grand Prix, and I'm aware this automatically makes me a monster to a lot of people commenting on this thread, but I'm going to give it a go. I dont agree that what was done in that infamous CDJ video has any relation to light tapping to encourage piaffe or passage, for a start the horse was in canter but primarily because that video showed not one ounce of timing, feel or anything positive the horse could understand, the video was just abuse, simple as that, all the horse could possibly learn from that treatment was pain, fear and confusion.

Not every horse has read the book and sometimes you need to think differently to help understanding, so sometimes with some horses a light tap can help teach piaffe, but it tends to reduce the movement to a learnt trick rather than the ultimate of collection with a lowered croup that it is supposed to be, and therefore it should be achieved through years and years of transitions, half halts and collection.

There are no question horrible abusive dressage riders, as sadly, there are horrible abusive riders in every single thing connected with horses, from hacking to polo and everything in between, but it doesnt mean that every rider, dressage or otherwise is an abusive monster.
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Everyone who does anything with horses touches them and they should be comfortable to be touched for reasons of safety and comfort. But these days I do see the implicit threat in negative reinforcement: anyone who isn't in control of their emotions, doesn't see horses as sentient/sensitive animals, just wants to get their own way, isn't talented enough, etc. can easily step over a line. I admire and respect anyone who trains in a way understandable to the horse and that suits the horse and its biomechanics, keeps the horse's experience at the centre of what they do and recognises when they've got to the end of their skill set in an appropriate way. That's what horsemanship is all about - the trouble is, it's rarer than it should be, and sometimes just when you think you've seen it something will happen to disabuse you, which is why CDJ in particular was so upsetting for so many people.
 
daffy44 said:
I am reluctant to comment because I have actually trained horses to Grand Prix, and I'm aware this automatically makes me a monster to a lot of people commenting on this thread, but I'm going to give it a go
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It does not and this isn't helpful. Training horses to GP does not and should not mean assuming abusive practices. This hit a nerve for me so Im sorry if i offend. I admire people that work with horses to achieve beautiful, harmonious work that both parties enjoy. I do not support any sort of abuse. The two things are entirely different and are not defined by the level you train at.
 
daffy44 said:
I am reluctant to comment because I have actually trained horses to Grand Prix, and I'm aware this automatically makes me a monster to a lot of people commenting on this thread, but I'm going to give it a go. I dont agree that what was done in that infamous CDJ video has any relation to light tapping to encourage piaffe or passage, for a start the horse was in canter but primarily because that video showed not one ounce of timing, feel or anything positive the horse could understand, the video was just abuse, simple as that, all the horse could possibly learn from that treatment was pain, fear and confusion.

Not every horse has read the book and sometimes you need to think differently to help understanding, so sometimes with some horses a light tap can help teach piaffe, but it tends to reduce the movement to a learnt trick rather than the ultimate of collection with a lowered croup that it is supposed to be, and therefore it should be achieved through years and years of transitions, half halts and collection.

There are no question horrible abusive dressage riders, as sadly, there are horrible abusive riders in every single thing connected with horses, from hacking to polo and everything in between, but it doesnt mean that every rider, dressage or otherwise is an abusive monster.
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Well said and very true on it can just lead to trick training, we used a tap on the corresponding shoulder for each leg to help Topaz in trot extensions, to try and help her understand we wanted the forelimb to go out not just up. It worked but still wasn’t her natural movement, so I always felt it was a trained trick more than anything, but then judges didn’t want to reward her natural extension, as her natural Hackney knees up isn’t very dressag’y in movement 🤪.

Oh and yes it was a wee tap to try and get her to understand we were looking for something different in her movement. It was also done by me as a rider as she was so hot, subtlety and timing from feel was needed! We did try with the trainer doing the tapping from the ground for piaffe work but this was met with Topaz hysteria so no walloping would have been tolerated without me getting lawn darted 🙈. The beauty of an amazing trainer was to know what worked, what not to try again (and definitely not to just increase pressure to see if we could force it to work) and what other approaches might help the horse understand better.

I don’t tend to comment on dressage matters on here as it seems everyone gets tarnished with the same brush…
 
I am still unclear of exactly what CDJ was trying to achieve. I don't think her rider knew, I don't think the horse knew. That's the sign of a really poor instructor. Some people are able to ride and not able to teach. If you've only ever ridden naturally talented horses you might not understand that some horses aren't immediately capable. If you're naturally talented you will struggle to relate to people who are not.

I have done bits of training to piaffe with my horse. My instructor has used a well-timed tap with a stick to assist. I say tap. It's more of an irritating tickle to get him to pick up the foot quickly 😂
I have done this with two different instructors. One is a British Olympian. The other is a Dutch Grand Prix rider who has coached multiple teams for Olympics and Europeans. Both of them are horse-first in their way of teaching. They would be horrified if I used force in my riding and they would never use it in their training.
They are also very capable of training me and my cob, as well as the other horses I have taken to see them. I am a decidedly average rider and my horse is perfection in horse form, but is not a typical dressage horse. They get a great tune out of both of us but I have no doubt they have to teach us differently to the way they will teach a talented teen on a son of Totilas.

I do have confidence there are still good people in dressage, who train in an ethical way. There are a number of riders I really don't enjoy watching, and some I actively boycott. I feel sad that people now think that dressage is cruel and won't participate in it anymore. There are issues with all disciplines. The bits and noseband combinations in show jumping, the obesity in showing, the riding of baby horses in both western and racing etc. The hobby riders who are too heavy, the pet horses who are lame but don't see the vet because their owner can't afford it or doesn't realise there's an issue. Horses stabled 24/7, horses turned out in knee deep mud. None of us are perfect and all of us will make mistakes. Most of us won't make such a "mistake" as whacking a horse and complaining the whip won't hit hard enough. But I don't think we can call out one discipline in isolation as if the only thing wrong with equestrianism is dressage.

The blanket criticism of dressage has driven some really knowledgeable people away from this forum, and that's such a shame.
 
I am dismayed by the way dressage and riding horses in general is going.

I abhor the CDJ video. I have seen two well known dressage riders do similar, one was on my horse, although the abuse was more subtle, it was still abuse. I stopped and did not return. The second I was being paid to have lessons with, but I still stopped and refused. I also saw an eventer, prepping for the 2012 Olympics (not a GBR rider) abuse his horse in an awful way. That was not subtle at all and including dismounting twice to kick the poor horse in the guts.

On the other hand, I see so many people swept up in this positive positive only wave. Most of them seem to not actually ride their horses, despite wanting to. They do years of groundwork in preparation but they don't seem to get on and go.

I think there is a middle ground. But it seems that the middle ground, where horses have a job and get on and do it, is growing rarer and rarer.

My horse is great. He is ridden in a Cheltenham Gag as he is a big old unit and I am old and weak. TBH, I rarely pick the rein up, but I like to know I have last say if I do. He doesn't have a noseband or martingale, but some people think I am awful. This is a horse who is kind, placid and generous. He tries his best. Yet people criticise.

I just wish we could go back to the days when horses were ridden forward, mostly outside the arena, in differing terrain. I think horses are mainly unbothered by rider mistakes, by a smack if they fail to go forward off the leg (as long as they are not held back at the same time😒), unbothered by many things. I think they like direction. I think they understand pressure/release.

I think the Charlottes of the world have done a disservice by strengthening the resolve of those people who think horses should only be trained with treatsies. I like clicker training for some things. But, when faced with real world situations, like traffic or being mannerly in a large group of horses, I like to know that my horse understands pressure release too. I think strong direction to a horse is comforting to them at times of crises, but only if they know how to respond to pressure and how to make the pressure stop, through consistent training.

I am horrified by the abuse videos, by the thought that horses are punished and put in situations where they don't know how to make the abuse stop. But I also despair at the people who never give clear direction and who won't use some pressure/release to help the horse understand what is required.

The abusers are making horses' experiences worse in more ways than directly. I believe that yes, horses are happy to live out in a heard situation and not be ridden at all, but also that yes, they can enjoy knowing their job and DOING a job too. With clear direction and a sense of fairness.
 
Red-1 said:
I am dismayed by the way dressage and riding horses in general is going.

I abhor the CDJ video. I have seen two well known dressage riders do similar, one was on my horse, although the abuse was more subtle, it was still abuse. I stopped and did not return. The second I was being paid to have lessons with, but I still stopped and refused. I also saw an eventer, prepping for the 2012 Olympics (not a GBR rider) abuse his horse in an awful way. That was not subtle at all and including dismounting twice to kick the poor horse in the guts.

On the other hand, I see so many people swept up in this positive positive only wave. Most of them seem to not actually ride their horses, despite wanting to. They do years of groundwork in preparation but they don't seem to get on and go.

I think there is a middle ground. But it seems that the middle ground, where horses have a job and get on and do it, is growing rarer and rarer.

My horse is great. He is ridden in a Cheltenham Gag as he is a big old unit and I am old and weak. TBH, I rarely pick the rein up, but I like to know I have last say if I do. He doesn't have a noseband or martingale, but some people think I am awful. This is a horse who is kind, placid and generous. He tries his best. Yet people criticise.

I just wish we could go back to the days when horses were ridden forward, mostly outside the arena, in differing terrain. I think horses are mainly unbothered by rider mistakes, by a smack if they fail to go forward off the leg (as long as they are not held back at the same time😒), unbothered by many things. I think they like direction. I think they understand pressure/release.

I think the Charlottes of the world have done a disservice by strengthening the resolve of those people who think horses should only be trained with treatsies. I like clicker training for some things. But, when faced with real world situations, like traffic or being mannerly in a large group of horses, I like to know that my horse understands pressure release too. I think strong direction to a horse is comforting to them at times of crises, but only if they know how to respond to pressure and how to make the pressure stop, through consistent training.

I am horrified by the abuse videos, by the thought that horses are punished and put in situations where they don't know how to make the abuse stop. But I also despair at the people who never give clear direction and who won't use some pressure/release to help the horse understand what is required.

The abusers are making horses' experiences worse in more ways than directly. I believe that yes, horses are happy to live out in a heard situation and not be ridden at all, but also that yes, they can enjoy knowing their job and DOING a job too. With clear direction and a sense of fairness.
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What an excellent post, thank you, and I agree with you
 
daffy44 said:
Thank you very much, and thanks to everyone who has responded positively I expected burning pitch forks, so I'm pleasantly surprised.

But I'm also sorry that other posters feel the same as me about posting on dressage related matters on this forum.
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I genuinely don't know if this is going on in other threads that I dont see but, as I also said on the showing abuse thread, this is (mostly) discussion of violent abuse. The criticism of "dressage" as a sport is that it the governing body condones abuse. I just don't see that as criticism of dressage riders and trainers as individuals.
Red-1 said:
On the other hand, I see so many people swept up in this positive positive only wave. Most of them seem to not actually ride their horses, despite wanting to. They do years of groundwork in preparation but they don't seem to get on and go.

I think there is a middle ground. But it seems that the middle ground, where horses have a job and get on and do it, is growing rarer and rarer.
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This is a problem of resources. And it is changing slowly. There is a scarcity of qualified people who have sufficient background in R+ to be able to teach people IN PERSON how to apply that to ridden work. There are innumerable online programs, YouTube resources whatever that will do the basics of groundwork and clicker training and cooperative care etc but the resources to take that into dressage or jumping or whatever just isn't there so people get stuck, like I did.

I am lucky to have a trainer who teaches classical dressage but her "real job" is as an equine behaviourist. (I am so so so lucky). It actually isn't at all difficult to use R+ in the ridden work but people who go to R+ and groundwork programmes are generally doing it for a reason, be that their own confidence or a difficult, disregulated horse, and if you don't have in person support that aligns with how you want to train, or at least someone that won't write you off as a useless pony patter, it is really hard to figure it out by yourself!
 
smolmaus said:
I genuinely don't know if this is going on in other threads that I dont see but, as I also said on the showing abuse thread, this is (mostly) discussion of violent abuse. The criticism of "dressage" as a sport is that it the governing body condones abuse. I just don't see that as criticism of dressage riders and trainers as individuals.

This is a problem of resources. And it is changing slowly. There is a scarcity of qualified people who have sufficient background in R+ to be able to teach people IN PERSON how to apply that to ridden work. There are innumerable online programs, YouTube resources whatever that will do the basics of groundwork and clicker training and cooperative care etc but the resources to take that into dressage or jumping or whatever just isn't there so people get stuck, like I did.

I am lucky to have a trainer who teaches classical dressage but her "real job" is as an equine behaviourist. (I am so so so lucky). It actually isn't at all difficult to use R+ in the ridden work but people who go to R+ and groundwork programmes are generally doing it for a reason, be that their own confidence or a difficult, disregulated horse, and if you don't have in person support that aligns with how you want to train, or at least someone that won't write you off as a useless pony patter, it is really hard to figure it out by yourself!
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I think it is more than that. I have taught people who wanted to do ++ training and so educated myself to some degree in that. I have helped people achieve a lot with this method. But, I think there is a place for ++ and still a place for pressure release.

I have taught a few horses to know what a clicker is. I taught Rigs to have his legs clipped when I don't think any other method would have worked! He had Mallenders and it hurt and he needed the ++ to understand that if he stood still, the torture would stop and he would get a treatsie.

I taught a horse to fetch sticks, like a dog, and place them into my hand.

I was told by a ++ person that she didn't want to ride my horses because they didn't have a 'choice' about being ridden, as she disagreed with pressure release. I then taught H to race me to the mounting block (loose) and reverse himself into position, side passing for me to mount up. All of those things took 3 sessions, and all were effective.

What I dislike is some romantic notion that my horse had some romantic 'choice' about being ridden, when, in reality, he realised that the sooner he parked up in the required spot, the sooner he got his treatsie! H is a greedy horse, and likes treatsies! He soon learned to trot or even canter to the required spot. But, I didn't think that was indicative of his choice to be ridden or not. I saw that as indicative of his greed for treatsies!

I like ++ training. Rigs is easy to clip for me because treatsies are involved. He is even more greedy than H! He is a cob LOL.

I still say that, in a real world situation, I like a horse to understand pressure release so they can understand direction and have confidence in this. They know how to respond to pressure and how to obtain the release. They can be stopped when something unexpected occurs like a firework is thrown under their belies. They know that mum is the leader and will keep them safe. They will respond to a stand still command and therefore avoid being run over by the passing bus (I used to train Police horses so a real life situation). Pressure release kept us all safe.

++ training has its place. But I think it is not the be all and end all. Horses don't offer each other treatsies in a herd environment. They use pressure release.

What I dispair of is the throwing out the effective and easily understood training in preference for training that works in a controlled situation but maybe not in the real world.

I also happen to think that many horses trained at liberty, who have to try behaviours to try to obtain the + response, with no direct direction, look pretty miserable!

If a heard leader wants another to move, they directly put pressure on by a flick of the ear, or by moving closer. Horses understand this, I believe, more than having to try a variety of behaviours to try to elicit a positive response (treatsie).

It is the loss of positive leadership that I think is a travesty by people who have been turned off giving direction by a misplaced vow to avoid abuse.
 
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pistolpete said:
I just dont trust anything to do with dressage anymore. Horrible hateful people causing suffering and bad treatment of animals. Appalling all round.
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@smolmaus I didnt have to look too far to find this, I'm certainly not singling this person out because they are not the only person to express this type of sentiment. I totally understand and agree with the condemnation of abuse, and I agree wholeheartedly that the governing bodies are failing dressage horses in so many ways, but it doesnt mean that every person involved in dressage is a monster.
 
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This appeared on my FB feed today.


https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1170634510815944

I like Michael Peace. I like Richard Maxwell too. They are not afraid to look at issues. They may make mistakes, but are gurus at pressure release. They can save horses where others would have written the horse off.

I really like Michael Peace as he is totally without ego. I provided a horse for a demo of his once. It was a horse who was a dramatist. If you let him look at stuff, he was a nightmare. If you gave him a slap (no hold on the reins) and told him to get on with it, he was happy and got on with it. He was a horse who preferred to not have to make decisions. He was happy to be directed.

Michael tried to let him look at stuff. The horse got very concerned: he deteriorated. Michael changed his stance and worked with the horse. No ego. The horse ended up happy. That is an excellent trainer.
 
Red-1 said:
I still say that, in a real world situation, I like a horse to understand pressure release so they can understand direction and have confidence in this. They know how to respond to pressure and how to obtain the release. They can be stopped when something unexpected occurs like a firework is thrown under their belies. They know that mum is the leader and will keep them safe. They will respond to a stand still command and therefore avoid being run over by the passing bus (I used to train Police horses so a real life situation). Pressure release kept us all safe.
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This is what I mean tho, you can teach all this with R+ but the resources aren't easily found to teach people how to teach it! There is a gap in general knowledge. Rein & seat still means stop and leg still means go, my riding cues aren't any different to how they used to be, its the teaching method that changes, and a lack of escalating pressure if the horse doesn't get the right answer. Shaping behaviour from nothing isn't R+, thats not anything to do with operant conditioning, its a choice of training style that I agree isn't good communication.

Horses do also use R+ in their own communities. They use all 4 quadrants of operant conditioning. Access to resources (food, company, shelter) can be given or taken away. Mutual grooming can be R+ too.
 
Red-1 said:
On the other hand, I see so many people swept up in this positive positive only wave. Most of them seem to not actually ride their horses, despite wanting to. They do years of groundwork in preparation but they don't seem to get on and go.

I think there is a middle ground. But it seems that the middle ground, where horses have a job and get on and do it, is growing rarer and rarer.



I just wish we could go back to the days when horses were ridden forward, mostly outside the arena, in differing terrain. I think horses are mainly unbothered by rider mistakes, by a smack if they fail to go forward off the leg (as long as they are not held back at the same time😒), unbothered by many things. I think they like direction. I think they understand pressure/release.

I think the Charlottes of the world have done a disservice by strengthening the resolve of those people who think horses should only be trained with treatsies. I like clicker training for some things. But, when faced with real world situations, like traffic or being mannerly in a large group of horses, I like to know that my horse understands pressure release too. I think strong direction to a horse is comforting to them at times of crises, but only if they know how to respond to pressure and how to make the pressure stop, through consistent training.
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Red-1 said:
I still say that, in a real world situation, I like a horse to understand pressure release so they can understand direction and have confidence in this. They know how to respond to pressure and how to obtain the release. They can be stopped when something unexpected occurs like a firework is thrown under their belies. They know that mum is the leader and will keep them safe. They will respond to a stand still command and therefore avoid being run over by the passing bus (I used to train Police horses so a real life situation). Pressure release kept us all safe.

++ training has its place. But I think it is not the be all and end all. Horses don't offer each other treatsies in a herd environment. They use pressure release.

What I dispair of is the throwing out the effective and easily understood training in preference for training that works in a controlled situation but maybe not in the real world.



If a heard leader wants another to move, they directly put pressure on by a flick of the ear, or by moving closer. Horses understand this, I believe, more than having to try a variety of behaviours to try to elicit a positive response (treatsie).

It is the loss of positive leadership that I think is a travesty by people who have been turned off giving direction by a misplaced vow to avoid abuse.
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so much agree with all of this. How much better it would be for horses if people got on and took them out for a good ride over all terrain to give the horse an interest yet they seem scared of going out and doing this in the real world.


smolmaus said:
This is a problem of resources. And it is changing slowly. There is a scarcity of qualified people who have sufficient background in R+ to be able to teach people IN PERSON how to apply that to ridden work. There are innumerable online programs, YouTube resources whatever that will do the basics of groundwork and clicker training and cooperative care etc but the resources to take that into dressage or jumping or whatever just isn't there so people get stuck, like I did.

I am lucky to have a trainer who teaches classical dressage but her "real job" is as an equine behaviourist. (I am so so so lucky). It actually isn't at all difficult to use R+ in the ridden work but people who go to R+ and groundwork programmes are generally doing it for a reason, be that their own confidence or a difficult, disregulated horse, and if you don't have in person support that aligns with how you want to train, or at least someone that won't write you off as a useless pony patter, it is really hard to figure it out by yourself!
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do horses really all want and enjoy this? or is it more a case that some just lack the confidence to actually ride their horse out. I don't condone abuse towards horses but in earlier times there was little of this and we just got on and took the horses out for a ride which they found exciting and enjoyed. I'm sure there were far less problem horses
 
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