CDJ withdrawn from paris

[Beausmate]

so much agree with all of this. How much better it would be for horses if people got on and took them out for a good ride over all terrain to give the horse an interest yet they seem scared of going out and doing this in the real world.



do horses really all want and enjoy this? or is it more a case that some just lack the confidence to actually ride their horse out. I don't condone abuse towards horses but in earlier times there was little of this and we just got on and took the horses out for a ride which they found exciting and enjoyed. I'm sure there were far less problem horses

I used to get on and go out for a good, varied ride. This year I have mostly done groundwork (which is a good thing) and riding in the field (which is an ok thing) but very little of going anywhere out. I have had enough of poor off-road routes and frankly awful, entitled, selfish drivers and cyclists. I'm not scared to go out, I just find it stressful and unenjoyable. Groundwork in the field is much more fun, but it isn't doing much for anyone's fitness, although I have lower blood pressure!

The "Real World" has changed and not for the better. And it's only getting worse. If I could move to a better area, then I'm sure I would go back to exploring for hours over varied terrain, but short of a lottery win, that's not going to happen and I expect it is like that for a lot of horse owners these days.

 

[SEL]

so much agree with all of this. How much better it would be for horses if people got on and took them out for a good ride over all terrain to give the horse an interest yet they seem scared of going out and doing this in the real world.



do horses really all want and enjoy this? or is it more a case that some just lack the confidence to actually ride their horse out. I don't condone abuse towards horses but in earlier times there was little of this and we just got on and took the horses out for a ride which they found exciting and enjoyed. I'm sure there were far less problem horses

I think many horse trainers who are successful with "problem" horses get them out and moving forward. Sophie Seymour turns a lot around by just giving them the confidence to use their bodies and I've seen Michael Peace do the same.

Last year was the first time in a very, very long time I've been regularly out at unaffiliated and if I relied on on-line opinions I would have expected horrific riding. Far from it. The vast majority of amateur riders are out there trying to improve and do the best by their horses.

 

[Curly_Feather]

The vast majority of amateur riders are out there trying to improve and do the best by their horses.

So true. At our local shows here in South Africa I see riders and horses going out and trying hard, from prelim to grand prix. Lots of good training. Also lots of mistakes in the higher level classes, but riders laughing and patting their horses through their tests.

A few years ago the higher classes only had a small handful of entries, and every subsequent year the size of the classes have grown. And what I am LOVING seeing is how many are now riding their tests in snaffle bridles.

 

[scats]

I certainly don’t believe every dressage rider is abusing horses.
From a personal point of view though, the methods used in a session to get my horse to give a ‘bigger’ trot, made me extremely uncomfortable. She was chased aggressively down the long side with a lunge whip with me on board. I stopped it and stated I wasn’t happy. My horse was running in total fear. I was then told that ‘X’ does this in lessons to get horses more forwards with a rider. X is very well known.
I drove away from that lesson feeling confused and sad, because that wasn’t what I thought X was about. When it’s someone at the top of their game, who is very well respected, you do start to question things.

It did make me think that questionable methods must have to be adopted to get horses to the top level with the expression required. Or at least, horses are pushed at times out of what is comfortable.
You only have to look at the tension in 90% of horses faces at GP level to see this. Is this ok? I’m not sure anymore.
Are these methods the ones needed to get horses that little bit of ‘edge’ over the rest?

As I said, I don’t believe all dressage riders are monsters. Not at all. But I am starting to question what we ask of horses when it comes to top level sport.

 

[rabatsa]

Someone mentioned Col Podhajsky and the Spanish Riding School. Yes whips were used on the horses legs, according to his book. I looked at the airs above the ground section and he talks of using the whip underneath the hocks to make the hind legs work more under the body. When the stallion does not come off the ground with his forehand, he may be made to understand by touching his forelegs with the whip. He goes on to state that if ANY response is amply rewarded this should soon bear fruit.

 

[Red-1]

This is what I mean tho, you can teach all this with R+ but the resources aren't easily found to teach people how to teach it! There is a gap in general knowledge. Rein & seat still means stop and leg still means go, my riding cues aren't any different to how they used to be, its the teaching method that changes, and a lack of escalating pressure if the horse doesn't get the right answer. Shaping behaviour from nothing isn't R+, thats not anything to do with operant conditioning, its a choice of training style that I agree isn't good communication.

Horses do also use R+ in their own communities. They use all 4 quadrants of operant conditioning. Access to resources (food, company, shelter) can be given or taken away. Mutual grooming can be R+ too.

I disagree. I learned loads from Youtube, looked at loads by Shawna Karrasch as she seemed to talk sense, and through that taught the horses to touch a target, fetch sticks, bash a drum, etc etc and then refined it to clip legs, load on a box, race me to the mounting block etc etc. I also had an in-person lesson with her, which was somewhat disappointing, especially due to the distance and £££ it cost. But it was available in this country. I think she is one of the world experts on ++ training, and it was available in this country. People she taught also teach in this country, many were at that clinic and were taking her teachings forward.

Through that experience, I found people doing straightness training and had in-person lessons for that, which is not the same but very much along the lines of working with the horse.

Also for in-person lessons, I attended a couple of Andrew McLean clinics as a spectator, and followed it up with a ridden lesson. I loved his lessons on operant conditioning so much that I then had a load of lessons, over several years with his wife Manu, who would regularly travel to England. I think they have to be seen as world experts on Operant Conditioning, but they very much use pressure release rather than pure ++ training. They refined their craft with elephants of all things.

I found people who train with Manu McLean while I was there having my lessons, and they give lessons. I gave lessons too. In fact, the eventer who I was using mainly for XC training also had lessons and changed her training to include such work.

The fees for these people were similar to this who did not use such methods, albeit top end of normal trainers as opposed to the local BHS AI charging £25 an hour.

I also went on clinics and had ridden lessons with Mark Rashid. He used to come to England regularly, although I ended up travelling to his base in the US in the end as I really enjoyed his breathe with the horse mentality. That said, he is a real horseman and could be very firm with a horse on occasion. This firmness is, I think, what many are now missing. Increasing numbers of people want things to be 'Disney' and are not always prepared to step up and draw the line in the sand and back it up physically if necessary. He believes you should be as soft as you can be, which is not always as soft as you want to be. Sometimes as soft as you can be can be pretty active!

I heard the people wanting things to be 'Disney' from Buck Brannaman, BTW. He was in Liverpool, England, and there to be learned from. You could take your horse or watch. One time, he had a bit of a showdown with one horse.

I genuinely believe that good quality training IS available in this country. But you have to research and organise it. Plus it isn't bargain basement price. But I'd rather save and have fewer lessons from someone good rather than wander round in disarray.

BTW, I don't believe horses do use true ++ training in their own communities. Taking away food company and shelter is defo a negative reinforcer! Giving it back is the release, not a true ++ move.

I certainly don’t believe every dressage rider is abusing horses.
From a personal point of view though, the methods used in a session to get my horse to give a ‘bigger’ trot, made me extremely uncomfortable. She was chased aggressively down the long side with a lunge whip with me on board. I stopped it and stated I wasn’t happy. My horse was running in total fear. I was then told that ‘X’ does this in lessons to get horses more forwards with a rider. X is very well known.
I drove away from that lesson feeling confused and sad, because that wasn’t what I thought X was about. When it’s someone at the top of their game, who is very well respected, you do start to question things.

It did make me think that questionable methods must have to be adopted to get horses to the top level with the expression required. Or at least, horses are pushed at times out of what is comfortable.
You only have to look at the tension in 90% of horses faces at GP level to see this. Is this ok? I’m not sure anymore.
Are these methods the ones needed to get horses that little bit of ‘edge’ over the rest?

As I said, I don’t believe all dressage riders are monsters. Not at all. But I am starting to question what we ask of horses when it comes to top level sport.

A client had an aged horse who needed to learn to change the way she went. The horse was an ex-racer who went inverted and had physical issues. Through clicker training, responding only to positive moves towards what we sought, the horse not only learned to go the 'correct way up' but also to lengthen, relax and swing. The horse also learned Spanish Walk, or at least a facsimile of such a move, although initially it was more of a limp LOL, until the horse worked out that both legs were praised for this and both were extended. The horse enjoyed this and was ever more trying to outdo itself for the click.

I was charging a 'normal' training fee, albeit at the higher end of the scale, not the £25 an hour end. I believe it is worth paying a good trainer for the hours they have spent learning their craft, be that in clinics backed up with personal experience, or by making their own way and learning from their own mistakes.

It's not saying that I don't value clicker training and positive reinforcement, or operant conditioning, overshadowing etc etc. Operant conditioning includes pressure release. It is that I truly believe that, when push comes to shove in the real world, it is fairer and safer if the horse understands simple go/stop NOW without finding it a fluster. That they can follow direct commands without being upset as they know the release will come.

I agree with all people using these methods, but am disquieted when I see people trying to train using ++ only. Not for the horses as many of them have a fine old life, lounging in the field with their friends and ground working on nice experiments in the arena. The owners have achieved happiness for them alright. What makes me sad is those people who do really want to ride and have a great time. But they get stuck in this ++ only trap which, IMO doesn't translate safely to the situations they want to experience. If they could only mix what they have learned with some good old fashioned horsemanship, including appropriate correction, than the horses could still have a great life, but the riders could achieve their dreams too.

It is the abusers who are negatively affecting this happening, I believe. People are pushing back so far against abuse that they become afraid to use any force on a horse. Sometimes horses do need force (as in pressure) on them to be directed and to understand. Yes, they do not need punishment to be trained, but there is a difference between force applied to direct and help understanding, and force applied as retribution.

 

[paddy555]

I certainly don’t believe every dressage rider is abusing horses.
From a personal point of view though, the methods used in a session to get my horse to give a ‘bigger’ trot, made me extremely uncomfortable. She was chased aggressively down the long side with a lunge whip with me on board. I stopped it and stated I wasn’t happy. My horse was running in total fear. I was then told that ‘X’ does this in lessons to get horses more forwards with a rider. X is very well known.
I drove away from that lesson feeling confused and sad, because that wasn’t what I thought X was about. When it’s someone at the top of their game, who is very well respected, you do start to question things.

It did make me think that questionable methods must have to be adopted to get horses to the top level with the expression required. Or at least, horses are pushed at times out of what is comfortable.
You only have to look at the tension in 90% of horses faces at GP level to see this. Is this ok? I’m not sure anymore.
Are these methods the ones needed to get horses that little bit of ‘edge’ over the rest?

As I said, I don’t believe all dressage riders are monsters. Not at all. But I am starting to question what we ask of horses when it comes to top level sport.

final para says it all. We are simply asking too much, they have to do more dressage, jump higher, run faster or whatever. To achieve that especially in dressage you have to use whatever you can because people expect it of you if you are a well known rider. You are under a lot of pressure for the horses to achieve, quickly and using whatever you can behind closed doors. You achieve and your followers copy. So the standard of what you need to achieve goes up and horse welfare goes down. Coupled with that I wonder how many of these very stressed horses end up being kept in unnatural conditions, lots of single box stabling etc. Turn out for a few hours but basically a lot of confinement and they are big horses and need to move and express natural behaviour, need to socialise etc.

I don't look at them. It really upsets me to see the head shots of some of these top dressage horses.

 

[myheartinahoofbeat]

There is always going to be a conflict with some very competitive professionals and their mounts. The result becomes more important than the horse’s needs. No horse needs to compete. Horses in sport is under discussion in many equine disciplines and becomes harder to justify. CDJ and the others who have come to light have just accelerated this.

 

[scats]

The issue for me is when force causes fear for the sole purpose of our enjoyment. For safety, it’s important that a horse moves off your leg when you ask (on the road, for instance, this could be a matter of life or death) but causing fear or prolonged discomfort during training to ‘improve’ a way of going to gain higher marks in a dressage test is stepping into different territory. That’s not for the safety of people or animal. That’s simply a human wanting a pat on the back for their ability to train an animal.

I’m finding myself more and more conflicted about the use of horses in sport, and I never thought I’d ever say that.

 

[smolmaus]

.I genuinely believe that good quality training IS available in this country. But you have to research and organise it. Plus it isn't bargain basement price. But I'd rather save and have fewer lessons from someone good rather than wander round in disarray.

BTW, I don't believe horses do use true ++ training in their own communities. Taking away food company and shelter is defo a negative reinforcer! Giving it back is the release, not a true ++ move.

Available isn't always accessible! And I did mean training on ridden R+ specifically. The knowledge base just isn't there in comparison to how easy it is to find someone to teach you to ride using traditional methods. I am also in NI, not in England so fair enough maybe it is more available there than here. But as I say, that does seem to be changing slowly. The proof will be in the pudding in the next 10 years I suppose. Bad R+ training exists and I'm sure it does confuse horses but bad R- does the same.

You don't have to prove anything to me Red, I know you're vastly more experienced than I am but I do have personal experience of exactly the "oh no, stuck with groundwork" issue you said you were disappointed by, and overcoming that so I'm offering a personal understanding of that problem. n=1 and all but my horse is more responsive and confident and vastly more safe to take out and about than she was a year ago. I am also happier and more confident to go out and do things. For a truly successful use case you'd maybe need a horse and a person who weren't very similar in anxious personality and being very slightly physically broken but we are doing it and it's working so its a huge success for us. I think the problems you see absolutely exist but they don't have to be set in stone, they can be worked through with the right support like anything else.

 

[tristars]

What paddy 555 said by the trailer load

When I was 20 I read a few books on breaking, I then found myself in a job where I had to select, buy, break and train then market the result for sale

I would say that 99 per cent of those horses could be got on and ridden anywhere, including the town centre, would pass any traffic, never bucked , napped, chucked anyone off, and were obedient because they understood from the off clearly being asked politely, hacking was the main training and in large open fields

This was probably because they passed a lengthy period of incremental logical to them training, which prepared them for backing in the traditional way

The first time I rode canter pirouette I was surprised how easy it was, but at the same time realised it was the result of riding a horse that was actually ready and who needed only to be asked, no whips spurs and in a snaffle with very little contact

Piaffe should be be the result of built up energy and happens when the horse is ready not because someone is tapping it's legs with a whip,
When it is ready and capable asking should bring the hinds underneath, tapping with a whip lifts the legs even if they are not underneath, which is two different things

 

[Red-1]

Available isn't always accessible! And I did mean training on ridden R+ specifically. The knowledge base just isn't there in comparison to how easy it is to find someone to teach you to ride using traditional methods. I am also in NI, not in England so fair enough maybe it is more available there than here. But as I say, that does seem to be changing slowly. The proof will be in the pudding in the next 10 years I suppose. Bad R+ training exists and I'm sure it does confuse horses but bad R- does the same.

You don't have to prove anything to me Red, I know you're vastly more experienced than I am but I do have personal experience of exactly the "oh no, stuck with groundwork" issue you said you were disappointed by, and overcoming that so I'm offering a personal understanding of that problem. n=1 and all but my horse is more responsive and confident and vastly more safe to take out and about than she was a year ago. I am also happier and more confident to go out and do things. For a truly successful use case you'd maybe need a horse and a person who weren't very similar in anxious personality and being very slightly physically broken but we are doing it and it's working so its a huge success for us. I think the problems you see absolutely exist but they don't have to be set in stone, they can be worked through with the right support like anything else.

I no longer do anything of note with horses. I am broken in body and TBH, after mum's death, my husband's death et al, in emotion too. I stopped teaching as I felt I no longer had anything to say. I had stopped striving for learning and I didn't want to become one of those stale 'instructors' who reel out the same old same old, lesson after lesson. I felt it would be cheating clients and, more importantly, their horses. I am now an old stick in the mud LOL.

It doesn't sound like you are one of those stuck with groundwork people, if you are getting out and doing things. I love using all sorts of training with horses, and seeing the benefits. I am talking people who really do want to ride, but have become almost paralysed by their quest for some training nirvana. They then seem very vocal, such as other groups who have 'seen the light' whether that be in religion, vegetarianism or whatever the thing that people have seen the light over, to the point that they try to convert others, despite the training not really helping them to achieve their goals.

I had to counter the rollseyes effect on many a livery yard where I taught. I used to specialise in confidence coaching and most such relationships would start with a lesson hon how to approach the horse in the stable, halter the horse, lead the horse out and have the horse stand still, preferably with a hoof in a circle drawn in the dirt. Many a time, those who said they weren't confident were rightly so, as they were not actually safe, as the horse was not following direction. You can imagine the gawking liveries, trying to see what the 'expensive' trainer would do, and all we did was stand and hold the horse.

Many a client had got to the stage where they were afraid to mount the horse. But, we'd have lessons on body language (horse and rider), pressure/release, leading, lungeing, long reining, long reining round obstacles (so the rider could see the horse's reaction and learn to anticipate and correct, before finally, one day, whilst driving the horse from behind with saddle and bridle in place, they would actually want to mount.

The transformation would be amazing. But we would use pressure, so not purist ++.

I think your comment about anxiety in people is very valid. When I would teach someone, they would change the way they stand. They would stand in their own space, learn to inhabit their space. Sounds a bit woo woo, but horses know about stance and inner stillness, and boundaries.

Many clients would change during the process. They would do their hair differently, clothes, one started to appear in make-up. They may change jobs or get a promotion. One even changed husband as she decided that the one she had was not good enough!

But none of that involved ++. It was pressure release. I was accused of being a 'horse whisperer' on a number of occasions. I'm nothing special: I am clumsy and a very average rider. But, it made me re-evaluate the definition of the phrase horse whisperer. I helped the owners of a couple of horses who would be rude in the stable. But, if I stood there at the door, suddenly the handler could do whatever they wanted. They would be flummoxed as they could not demonstrate to me the bad behaviour that they had called me to 'cure' for them. They had been trying to correct the horse with pushes, slaps, pulls on a halter, whatever. The horse was walking all over them. But, I could see that, before the bad thing happened, there would be a tell or ask from the horse. If I were stood there, the horse would have an unwanted thought, I would look at it, or raise my energy, or slightly square my shoulders and shut the thought down while it was still a thought, not bad action. So, the horse never did the bad thing.

The lesson was not for the horse, it was for the rider to learn to read the intention of the horse, from them changing focus, or tension, or ears, or eye, or raising energy. Then to counter the thought.

That is how I sold the idea of first lesson being to hold the horse in the yard. It is actually very difficult to keep a horse still on the yard. It requires attention and, at first, the small intentions of the horse are missed and the horse will barge and need correction. Sometimes strong correction. But, this is the lesson the rider needed to learn. To stand in their space, draw an invisible boundary, and be observant. But then to also back up their boundary. That could be small and easy if the thought was read early, or noisy and messy if it was spotted late and the horse had made a unilateral decision and moved into the rider.

On Tuesday, I didn't pay attention when loading Rigs. I've been on holiday and he'd stayed with a friend. He is a good loader and I loaded him, put the rope across the gap and stood chatting to my friend before I tied him up. Rigs had a thought, I didn't spot it. I was yakking away, attention on my friend. Rigs thought he could simply duck under the rope, stroll off the horsebox and have a graze on some grass. I spotted it too late, and had to allow him to walk off as he was caught under a rope. He loaded back, no issue, but then thought he liked that move and went to do it again. Rigsby gets where water can't! I saw it, said no, but he was fixed on the idea, due to my previous inattention and his success in off loading. I said no loudly and with the halter, but still he pushed through. I raised both hands and battered the part of him that was moving into my space, it was the top of his neck and his shoulder. Those parts were coming into me. I drew a boundary, he didn't listen, I had to draw louder.

I guess that could look like abuse, but it was not. I never moved into his space. I just held my space. I had no anger, I actually thought he was a clever old man, exploiting my inattention. As soon as he stopped pushing, the pressure stopped. he understood that he'd overstepped the mark and I had defended my boundary. There was no upset on either side, he stood politely to be tied up. Rigs used to be a big bully, but now is generally polite. I had let us both down by being inattentive: he will have explored the idea of ducking under the rope before he did it. In his eyes, I guess he asked permission and I didn't say no. But, because of my error, he then needed correcting. It was robust correcting because I had allowed him to do it once. Horses like consistency.

There was some interesting research done: I read it years ago so can't remember whose it was, sadly, but on my own observations believe it to (sadly) be true. The research showed that a horse is happier with consistency to the degree that it is actually happier with someone who is abusive every day (consistently abusive), than someone who is randomly abusive.

Mark Rashid spoke to me about clicker training once. He did not (at that time) think clicker training was the best and most efficient way to train a horse, but he did think it had the advantage of helping a rider see and mark a behaviour quickly. It was training the rider. Sadly, the pure ++ training would not then allow correction by pressure of the unwanted thought, which is where I think it falls down.

We are privileged to be able to walk alongside, and even ride, horses. They are so forgiving. It is a huge burden. I think the more you know, the more you realise how much you do not know. But then, like now, I made a decision with my aging body and slightly broken emotions, to simply have a straightforward and fun time with my horse. As I said, I am feeble now and he is big and not highly trained, so we have a Cheltenham Gag. Yesterday we went to the stubble field and had a good old canter round. H would rather have been walking or socialising but is habituated to being biddable, so obliged. No fuss, no upset. I am happy with that these days.

I think a revolution is coming in horse keeping and training, which is good. I do worry, however, that the pendulum will swing too much the other way, and, as I said before, it is the abusive riders and keepers who will drive it too much the other way. People will be afraid to stand their ground and do robust correction. I think horses will be worse for it.

 

[smolmaus]

I no longer do anything of note with horses. I am broken in body and TBH, after mum's death, my husband's death et al, in emotion to. I stopped teaching as I felt I no longer had anything to say. I had stopped striving for learning and I didn't want to become one of those stale 'instructors' who reel out the same old same old, lesson after lesson. I felt it would be cheating clients and, more importantly, their horses. I am now an old stick in the mud LOL.

It doesn't sound like you are one of those stuck with groundwork people, if you are getting out and doing things. I love using all sorts of training with horses, and seeing the benefits. I am talking people who really do want to ride, but have become almost paralysed by their quest for some training nirvana. They then seem very vocal, such as other groups who have 'seen the light' whether that be in religion, vegetarianism or whatever the thing that people have seen the light over, to the point that they try to convert others, despite the training not really helping them to achieve their goals.

I had to counter the rollseyes effect on many a livery yard where I taught. I used to specialise in confidence coaching and most such relationships would start with a lesson hon how to approach the horse in the stable, halter the horse, lead the horse out and have the horse stand still, preferably with a hoof in a circle drawn in the dirt. Many a time, those who said they weren't confident were rightly so, as they were not actually safe, as the horse was not following direction. You can imagine the gawking liveries, trying to see what the 'expensive' trainer would do, and all we did was stand and hold the horse.

Many a client had got to the stage where they were afraid to mount the horse. But, we'd have lessons on body language (horse and rider), pressure/release, leading, lungeing, long reining, long reining round obstacles (so the rider could see the horse's reaction and learn to anticipate and correct, before finally, one day, whilst driving the horse from behind with saddle and bridle in place, they would actually want to mount.

The transformation would be amazing. But we would use pressure, so not purist ++.

I think your comment about anxiety in people is very valid. When I would teach someone, they would change the way they stand. They would stand in their own space, learn to inhabit their space. Sounds a bit woo woo, but horses know about stance and inner stillness, and boundaries.

Many clients would change during the process. They would do their hair differently, clothes, one started to appear in make-up. They may change jobs or get a promotion. One even changed husband as she decided that the one she had was not good enough!

But none of that involved ++. It was pressure release. I was accused of being a 'horse whisperer' on a number of occasions. I'm nothing special: I am clumsy and a very average rider. But, it made me re-evaluate the definition of the phrase horse whisperer. I had a couple of horses who would be rude in the stable. But, if I stood there at the door, suddenly the handler could do whatever they wanted. They would be flummoxed as they could not demonstrate to me the bad behaviour that they had called me to 'cure' for them. They had been trying to correct the horse with pushes, slaps, pulls on a halter, whatever. The horse was walking all over them. But, I could see that, before the bad thing happened, there would be a tell or ask from the horse. If I were stood there, the horse would have an unwanted thought, I would look at it, or raise my energy, or slightly square my shoulders and shut the thought down while it was still a thought, not bad action. So, the horse never did the bad thing.

The lesson was not for the horse, it was for the rider to learn to read the intention of the horse, from them changing focus, or tension, or ears, or eye, or raising energy. Then to counter the thought.

That is how I sold the idea of first lesson being to hold the horse in the yard. It is actually very difficult to keep a horse still on the yard. It requires attention and, at first, the small intentions of the horse are missed and the horse will barge and need correction. Sometimes strong correction. But, this is the lesson the rider needed to learn. To stand in their space, draw an invisible boundary, and be observant. But then to also back up their boundary. That could be small and easy if the thought was read early, or noisy and messy if it was spotted late and the horse had made a unilateral decision and moved into the rider.

On Tuesday, I didn't pay attention when loading Rigs. I've been on holiday and he'd stayed with a friend. He is a good loader and I loaded him, put the rope across the gap and stood chatting to my friend before I tied him up. Rigs had a thought, I didn't spot it. I was yakking away, attention on my friend. Rigs thought he could simply duck under the rope, stroll off the horsebox and have a graze on some grass. I spotted it too late, and had to allow him to walk off as he was caught under a rope. He loaded back, no issue, but then thought he liked that move and went to do it again. Rigsby gets where water can't! I saw it, said no, but he was fixed on the idea, due to my previous inattention and his success in off loading. I said no loudly and with the halter, but still he pushed through. I raised both hands and battered the part of him that was moving into my space, it was the top of his neck.

I guess that could look like abuse, but it was not. I never moved into his space. I just held my space. I had no anger, I actually thought he was a clever old man, exploiting my inattention. As soon as he stopped pushing, the pressure stopped. he understood that he'd overstepped the mark and I had defended my boundary. There was no upset on either side. Rigs used to be a big bully, but now is generally polite. I had let us both down by being inattentive: he will have explored the idea of ducking under the rope before he did it. In his eyes, I guess he asked permission and I didn't say no. But, because of my error, he then needed correcting. It was robust correcting because I had allowed him to do it once. Horses like consistency.

Mark Rashid spoke to me about clicker training once. He did not (at that time) think clicker training was the best and most efficient way to train a horse, but he did think it had the advantage of helping a rider see and mark a behaviour quickly. It was training the rider. Sadly, the pure ++ training would not then allow correction by pressure of the unwanted thought, which is where I think it falls down.

There was some interesting research done: I read it years ago so can't remember whose it was, sadly, but on my own observations believe it to (sadly) be true. The research showed that a horse is happier with consistency to the degree that it is actually happier with someone who is abusive every day (consistently abusive), than someone who is randomly abusive.

We are privileged to be able to walk alongside, and even ride, horses. They are so forgiving. It is a huge burden. I think the more you know, the more you realise how much you do not know. But then, like now, I made a decision with my aging body and slightly broken emotions, to simply have a straightforward and fun time with my horse. As I said, I am feeble now and he is big and not highly trained, so we have a Cheltenham Gag. Yesterday we went to the stubble field and had a good old canter round. H would rather have been walking or socialising but is habituated to being biddable, so obliged. No fuss, no upset. I am happy with that these days.

I think a revolution is coming in horse keeping and training, which is good. I do worry, however, that the pendulum will swing too much the other way, and, as I said before, it is the abusive riders and keepers who will drive it too much the other way. People will be afraid to stand their ground and do robust correction. I think horses will be worse for it.

The similarities in the approach you describe and the approach I am trying to get to is incredible Red This maybe isn't the thread for it but there are more similarities than differences in what you were teaching and what I want to keep doing than differences! It sounds like your problem is with the "purist" people, which is fair but I don't think it's fair to say that is a problem with R+, that is a culture problem. It also wouldn't be fair to see CDJ, as a traditional "pressure-release" trainer and say that all pressure release is abuse because it can be used abusively. But there is perhaps a problem in the culture of pressure release where pressure is allowed to escalate to abuse. You can use any quandrant of conditioning fairly or unfairly, with clear communication or poor communication.

There is money in building a purist training culture. I'm not in that community, I like my trainer and the way she works because it is based in the science of learning and equine behaviour, it is science based, not just vibes but as I say I am very lucky to have her available as a resource and maybe if I didn't I would have fallen down the woo woo trap of finding training nirvana and constantly only looking at the "bond". Anyway, I think we are talking past eachother and derailing the thread. If someone arrives who is on the far end of the R+ spectrum we may get more insight on it, but unfortunately I am mostly normal and doing normal things, I just stop and give the pony a good girl snack every 2mins.

 

[Red-1]

The similarities in the approach you describe and the approach I am trying to get to is incredible Red This maybe isn't the thread for it but there are more similarities than differences in what you do and what I want to keep doing than differences! It sounds like your problem is with the "purist" people, which is fair but I don't think it's fair to say that is a problem with R+, that is a culture problem. It also wouldn't be fair to see CDJ, as a traditional "pressure-release" trainer and say that all pressure release is abuse because it can be used abusively. But there is perhaps a problem in the culture of pressure release where pressure is allowed to escalate to abuse. You can use any quandrant of conditioning fairly or unfairly, with clear communication or poor communication.

There is money in building a purist training culture. I'm not in that community, I like my trainer and the way she works because it is based in the science of learning and equine behaviour, it is science based, not just vibes but as I say I am very lucky to have her available as a resource and maybe if I didn't I would have fallen down the woo woo trap of finding training nirvana and constantly only looking at the "bond". Anyway, I think we are talking past eachother and derailing the thread. If someone arrives who is on the far end of the R+ spectrum we may get more insight on it, but unfortunately I am mostly normal and doing normal things, I just stop and give the pony a good girl snack every 2mins.

You misunderstand, I certainly don't think CDJ was using pressure release: she was using temper, ego and abuse.

My concern is that, in trying to distance themselves from the abuse, people will feel unable to use the pressure element of pressure release. That is the link to this thread, not derailing it. CDJ, and her ilk, using abuse, are making people scared to use pressure, as that can, on occasion (such as battering Rigs on Tuesday) look like abuse, but it is not. I simply had to escalate pressure (due to my own inadequacies) to set the necessary boundary.

That is my point, that CDJ, and her ilk, are doing more damage to horses than the ones that she abuses, or the ones that people emulate her and abuse. Nope, far more horses than that will be let down as many well meaning people will not use consistent correction. Horses then take matters into their own hands and a whole sh*t show starts, with horses and humans all unhappy.

On a smaller scale we had this at a yard I worked at. A groom was found on CCTV abusing a horse horrifically. The recordings were watched back over a period and it had happened a number of times.

That person was delt with, reported and gone, but then we had a whole new set of issues where other staff knew that person was gone because of hitting horses, so they stopped correcting horses at all. They had not seen the recording and didn't know the horrific details. Horses started to get out of line, pushing boundaries and barging. No one corrected them. No pressure. I was called in to handle a horse who was so unhappy, he had started to let people into his stable but not out again! He had unmet needs.

I had to demo robust boundary setting, to point out the difference between guidance and direction, and abuse. The horse soon came round, with consistent handling. Staff became confident to handle again.

Of course, some horses were unaffected, the type who were mentally more like my H, placid and, well, unimaginative. But others, those inquisitive and active minded ones, they were lost and unhappy. Unchecked they would have become a danger.

I worry that this will start happening on a wider scale.

 

[paddy555]

I no longer do anything of note with horses. I am broken in body and TBH, after mum's death, my husband's death et al, in emotion too. I stopped teaching as I felt I no longer had anything to say. I had stopped striving for learning and I didn't want to become one of those stale 'instructors' who reel out the same old same old, lesson after lesson. I felt it would be cheating clients and, more importantly, their horses. I am now an old stick in the mud LOL.

It doesn't sound like you are one of those stuck with groundwork people, if you are getting out and doing things. I love using all sorts of training with horses, and seeing the benefits. I am talking people who really do want to ride, but have become almost paralysed by their quest for some training nirvana. They then seem very vocal, such as other groups who have 'seen the light' whether that be in religion, vegetarianism or whatever the thing that people have seen the light over, to the point that they try to convert others, despite the training not really helping them to achieve their goals.

I had to counter the rollseyes effect on many a livery yard where I taught. I used to specialise in confidence coaching and most such relationships would start with a lesson hon how to approach the horse in the stable, halter the horse, lead the horse out and have the horse stand still, preferably with a hoof in a circle drawn in the dirt. Many a time, those who said they weren't confident were rightly so, as they were not actually safe, as the horse was not following direction. You can imagine the gawking liveries, trying to see what the 'expensive' trainer would do, and all we did was stand and hold the horse.

Many a client had got to the stage where they were afraid to mount the horse. But, we'd have lessons on body language (horse and rider), pressure/release, leading, lungeing, long reining, long reining round obstacles (so the rider could see the horse's reaction and learn to anticipate and correct, before finally, one day, whilst driving the horse from behind with saddle and bridle in place, they would actually want to mount.

The transformation would be amazing. But we would use pressure, so not purist ++.

I think your comment about anxiety in people is very valid. When I would teach someone, they would change the way they stand. They would stand in their own space, learn to inhabit their space. Sounds a bit woo woo, but horses know about stance and inner stillness, and boundaries.

Many clients would change during the process. They would do their hair differently, clothes, one started to appear in make-up. They may change jobs or get a promotion. One even changed husband as she decided that the one she had was not good enough!

But none of that involved ++. It was pressure release. I was accused of being a 'horse whisperer' on a number of occasions. I'm nothing special: I am clumsy and a very average rider. But, it made me re-evaluate the definition of the phrase horse whisperer. I had a couple of horses who would be rude in the stable. But, if I stood there at the door, suddenly the handler could do whatever they wanted. They would be flummoxed as they could not demonstrate to me the bad behaviour that they had called me to 'cure' for them. They had been trying to correct the horse with pushes, slaps, pulls on a halter, whatever. The horse was walking all over them. But, I could see that, before the bad thing happened, there would be a tell or ask from the horse. If I were stood there, the horse would have an unwanted thought, I would look at it, or raise my energy, or slightly square my shoulders and shut the thought down while it was still a thought, not bad action. So, the horse never did the bad thing.

The lesson was not for the horse, it was for the rider to learn to read the intention of the horse, from them changing focus, or tension, or ears, or eye, or raising energy. Then to counter the thought.

That is how I sold the idea of first lesson being to hold the horse in the yard. It is actually very difficult to keep a horse still on the yard. It requires attention and, at first, the small intentions of the horse are missed and the horse will barge and need correction. Sometimes strong correction. But, this is the lesson the rider needed to learn. To stand in their space, draw an invisible boundary, and be observant. But then to also back up their boundary. That could be small and easy if the thought was read early, or noisy and messy if it was spotted late and the horse had made a unilateral decision and moved into the rider.

On Tuesday, I didn't pay attention when loading Rigs. I've been on holiday and he'd stayed with a friend. He is a good loader and I loaded him, put the rope across the gap and stood chatting to my friend before I tied him up. Rigs had a thought, I didn't spot it. I was yakking away, attention on my friend. Rigs thought he could simply duck under the rope, stroll off the horsebox and have a graze on some grass. I spotted it too late, and had to allow him to walk off as he was caught under a rope. He loaded back, no issue, but then thought he liked that move and went to do it again. Rigsby gets where water can't! I saw it, said no, but he was fixed on the idea, due to my previous inattention and his success in off loading. I said no loudly and with the halter, but still he pushed through. I raised both hands and battered the part of him that was moving into my space, it was the top of his neck and his shoulder. Those parts were coming into me. I drew a boundary, he didn't listen, I had to draw louder.

I guess that could look like abuse, but it was not. I never moved into his space. I just held my space. I had no anger, I actually thought he was a clever old man, exploiting my inattention. As soon as he stopped pushing, the pressure stopped. he understood that he'd overstepped the mark and I had defended my boundary. There was no upset on either side, he stood politely to be tied up. Rigs used to be a big bully, but now is generally polite. I had let us both down by being inattentive: he will have explored the idea of ducking under the rope before he did it. In his eyes, I guess he asked permission and I didn't say no. But, because of my error, he then needed correcting. It was robust correcting because I had allowed him to do it once. Horses like consistency.

There was some interesting research done: I read it years ago so can't remember whose it was, sadly, but on my own observations believe it to (sadly) be true. The research showed that a horse is happier with consistency to the degree that it is actually happier with someone who is abusive every day (consistently abusive), than someone who is randomly abusive.

Mark Rashid spoke to me about clicker training once. He did not (at that time) think clicker training was the best and most efficient way to train a horse, but he did think it had the advantage of helping a rider see and mark a behaviour quickly. It was training the rider. Sadly, the pure ++ training would not then allow correction by pressure of the unwanted thought, which is where I think it falls down.

We are privileged to be able to walk alongside, and even ride, horses. They are so forgiving. It is a huge burden. I think the more you know, the more you realise how much you do not know. But then, like now, I made a decision with my aging body and slightly broken emotions, to simply have a straightforward and fun time with my horse. As I said, I am feeble now and he is big and not highly trained, so we have a Cheltenham Gag. Yesterday we went to the stubble field and had a good old canter round. H would rather have been walking or socialising but is habituated to being biddable, so obliged. No fuss, no upset. I am happy with that these days.

I think a revolution is coming in horse keeping and training, which is good. I do worry, however, that the pendulum will swing too much the other way, and, as I said before, it is the abusive riders and keepers who will drive it too much the other way. People will be afraid to stand their ground and do robust correction. I think horses will be worse for it.

this sums up so much, It's reading the horse and him reading you back. That is the simple difference between the successful (as in handling not rosettes) and the novice. The experienced looks at the horse who says not even worth the effort of trying it on or alternatively "someone in charge to look after me". The youngster looks at the novice who is trying to go into his stable and thinks "fun time here" or alternatively "he looks scared and so am I, I'm worried already that this is not the confident leader I need"

Same riding it. The experienced or one could say confident is read by the horse who says I''m going to be safe here, the herd leader is getting on and going to look after me. Life will be fine. The more "naughty" will say beware confident/experienced rider best get on with it.

this is all very different to the CJD temper syndrome. That is what needs to stop and change plus the expectations of high level competition which is for human benefit/ego.

 

[paddy555]

I just stop and give the pony a good girl snack every 2mins.

sorry but my mind just boggles at this. Perhaps you are just joking and I missed the humour in which case sorry

Tell him he is good boy or scratch him for going past something but I cannot in any way see it emulates natural horse behaviour to keep snacking horses. Perhaps it is just me but this R+ behaviour seems strange considering the way horses think and behave. I wonder if horses also find it strange.

 

[smolmaus]

You misunderstand, I certainly don't think CDJ was using pressure release: she was using temper, ego and abuse.

My concern is that, in trying to distance themselves from the abuse, people will feel unable to use the pressure element of pressure release. That is the link to this thread, not derailing it. CDJ, and her ilk, using abuse, are making people scared to use pressure, as that can, on occasion (such as battering Rigs on Tuesday) look like abuse, but it is not. I simply had to escalate pressure (due to my own inadequacies) to set the necessary boundary.

No I think we are still agreeing. Looking at CJD's behaviour and applying that to all pressure release training (because that is her training methodology) is unfair and incorrect. I am just also saying that conversely looking at examples of useless and confusing R+ trainers using poor methodology and applying that to everyone using rewards is also unfair and incorrect. You can use whatever method you want effectively and ethically if you listen, communicate and are consistent.

Your example sounds like it has less to do with training methodology and more to do with poor communication tbh, between humans on what actually happened and what new expectations are and then between humans and horses. That's a larger problem than whether you solve it with pressure or rewards. As you say, the horse had unmet needs that likely had little to do with whether he was praised for being good or whacked for being bad. He just needed to be told what to do, no matter the method.

Do you think the handlers at that barn genuinely couldn't differentiate between communicating with fair and clear pressure and the nasty b*stard method of extreme punishment? Were they routinely hitting horses as correction before that so they had to just... drop everything when they couldn't do that anymore? Hitting a horse is (usually) positive punishment, not pressure. Which, again, isn't necessarily abusive if used fairly and consistently, but was that problem you solved actually teaching pressure-release in the first place?

 

[DressageCob]

No I think we are still agreeing. Looking at CJD's behaviour and applying that to all pressure release training (because that is her training methodology) is unfair and incorrect. I am just also saying that conversely looking at examples of useless and confusing R+ trainers using poor methodology and applying that to everyone using rewards is also unfair and incorrect. You can use whatever method you want effectively and ethically if you listen, communicate and are consistent.

Your example sounds like it has less to do with training methodology and more to do with poor communication tbh, between humans on what actually happened and what new expectations are and then between humans and horses. That's a larger problem than whether you solve it with pressure or rewards. As you say, the horse had unmet needs that likely had little to do with whether he was praised for being good or whacked for being bad. He just needed to be told what to do, no matter the method.

Do you think the handlers at that barn genuinely couldn't differentiate between communicating with fair and clear pressure and the nasty b*stard method of extreme punishment? Were they routinely hitting horses as correction before that so they had to just... drop everything when they couldn't do that anymore? Hitting a horse is (usually) positive punishment, not pressure. Which, again, isn't necessarily abusive if used fairly and consistently, but was that problem you solved actually teaching pressure-release in the first place?

I hope the typo to CJD (mad cow disease) was deliberate

 

[smolmaus]

I hope the typo to CJD (mad cow disease) was deliberate

Unfortunately I'm not that funny on purpose

 

[pistolpete]

I hope the typo to CJD (mad cow disease) was deliberate

Very Freudian!

 

[equinerebel]

I wish I could just get on and ride across country. That’s all I really want to do, but there’s no where around me that has that type of hacking. So, I think maybe my opinion on what riding truly is and should be is different to other people’s.

 

[Red-1]

sorry but my mind just boggles at this. Perhaps you are just joking and I missed the humour in which case sorry

Tell him he is good boy or scratch him for going past something but I cannot in any way see it emulates natural horse behaviour to keep snacking horses. Perhaps it is just me but this R+ behaviour seems strange considering the way horses think and behave. I wonder if horses also find it strange.

LOL, I have been guilty of this.

When he came, Rigs had never experienced an arena. He simply could not see the point. He would walk out nicely when hacking, but he came to be rehabbed form 3 months box rest with lami with rotation, so hacking was initially out as we had to use a surface for his feet comfort, initially.

Riding on the arena was initially awful for both of us. he braced against hand and leg. he would not go. If you got him going and used the rein, he would push into it not yield. Yuk!

I started on the ground with the rein, to teach to yield. Then we had to get some go. Really, I think he was p*ssed off because he could not understand why I couldn't decide where he was to stand! He was happy to stand at A, C, E K... wherever, but I seemed to constantly change my mind. It was like riding a horse through treacle.

I used celery. We had celerybrations when he showed effort. So, a little use of leg followed by a forward motion meant we stopped for celery. He had time to fully chew, not only the celery but also the lesson. Soon, he could go 4 or 5 steps forward, and had celery. Soon, it was 1/4 of a lap of the arena. Then half.

It was ages before we were allowed trot, but by the time we did, he knew the secret to the access to celery and stepped forwards into it.

Celery changed him from upside down, reluctant, rigid to... this



It was a success.

Rigs now operates with no celery as I believe I can't rely on that to be effective in the real world where situations can be random. He now knows that if he ignores the leg, he will get a stronger leg and if he ignores that, a whip will be flicked upon his glossy ass. But the training unlocked his rather rigid mind and gave us a wealth of possibilities. The photo was once I had started to carry a schooling whip. You can see he wasn't alarmed by that, he remained relaxed. He had the rules explained and was happy to comply, even once the celery ceased.

No I think we are still agreeing. Looking at CJD's behaviour and applying that to all pressure release training (because that is her training methodology) is unfair and incorrect. I am just also saying that conversely looking at examples of useless and confusing R+ trainers using poor methodology and applying that to everyone using rewards is also unfair and incorrect. You can use whatever method you want effectively and ethically if you listen, communicate and are consistent.

Your example sounds like it has less to do with training methodology and more to do with poor communication tbh, between humans on what actually happened and what new expectations are and then between humans and horses. That's a larger problem than whether you solve it with pressure or rewards. As you say, the horse had unmet needs that likely had little to do with whether he was praised for being good or whacked for being bad. He just needed to be told what to do, no matter the method.

Do you think the handlers at that barn genuinely couldn't differentiate between communicating with fair and clear pressure and the nasty b*stard method of extreme punishment? Were they routinely hitting horses as correction before that so they had to just... drop everything when they couldn't do that anymore? Hitting a horse is (usually) positive punishment, not pressure. Which, again, isn't necessarily abusive if used fairly and consistently, but was that problem you solved actually teaching pressure-release in the first place?

It was defo lack of communication due to gdpr and privacy of the person who had left. Most staff didn't know the scale of the abuse so some stopped all correction as no one else wanted to lose their job. Personally I could have shown the video far and wide as I was furious but I can see why that would not be the professional or kind thing to do, and they were right to withhold it. But people didn't know the details and were then afraid to give any positive direction.

The horse I worked with there did need smacking as he would attack. TBH, I used to initially carry a whip when handling him as he had some very unwanted behaviours. But there is a difference between a smack as a reinforcer of an important safety boundary and a smack as punishment or with temper. I drew a line around me and had funky sticky out bits that he would effectively knock himself on if he crossed them. I would not even look at him when doing this, just go about my business with funky sticky out bits that would move within my own boundary. He soon settled down to knowing where he should be and where I should be. He became happy and easy. But I would never have sold him to a novice as he was also playful and curious and likely to test boundaries if they were not observed by the human. We believed he may have been hand reared as he was always an in your face character, wanting to touch and chew etc. He was actually an intelligent diamond. The kind who would go to the end of the earth for you.

Of course, in an ideal world, all horses would be impeccably trained from birth and not need a smack ever. But then there is real life where people are distracted, people misunderstand, horses are over fed and under worked, horses are kept unnaturally. I just try to give the horse a fair deal out if it, where, if they are ever corrected, they know how to make the correction stop. So, if I flick a horse with a whip behind my leg because he is tardy in responding, it will be a single flick and the horse will understand why the flick happened and how to prevent it happening again. I believe this to be less than training nirvana, but a fair deal for the horse.

In the current climate, I can see the flick with a whip for being tardy becoming a banned thing. Maybe a whip will be banned altogether.

 

[ramsaybailey]

Do you think using a whip will be banned? I havent seen anything actually changing since CDJ etc? I personally dont think that's something we need to worry about!!

(I have also read all the rest with much interest thank you for sharing!)

 

[sbloom]

My objection to the system and why it keeps almost encouraging abuse is less about the behavioural approach to training a horse as to the physical, that riding a horse in compression, not understanding healthy equine locomotive patterns, breeding and producing leg movers, yadda yadda is the issue. Not pressure-release versus R+ etc. Just to clarify.

And to add, I think both issues show up in the show ring, but neither is penalised. And what wins, gets copied, warts and all.

 

[Red-1]

Do you think using a whip will be banned? I havent seen anything actually changing since CDJ etc? I personally dont think that's something we need to worry about!!

(I have also read all the rest with much interest thank you for sharing!)

If not outright banned, then at least uncomfortable to carry/use.

I recently took H to a little unaffiliated arena eventing comp. I was informed that they will be following new rules where not only will the only whip allowed be a 'padded baton' (which I knew about) but also the padded baton can't touch the horse more than 3 times between entering the arena and leaving it.

H is very laid back! He needs to be in front of the leg for jumping to help him have some spring. I had tapped him twice before we went through the start as we'd been delayed in going in and he'd all but dropped off waiting. It was just to establish a bouncy canter as opposed to a languid one.

It was a conversational tap each time, to let him know that I required more, and then more still. he responded without fuss and I got the canter we needed.

On the course, I misjudged a corner (forgot the course - arena eventing has a LOT of fences LOL) and turned late to a skinny, and laid the whip against his shoulder as his shoulder hadn't stayed in line around the rather tighter than anticipated turn. It was a boundary to keep the shoulder turning so we didn't miss the skinny.

That was it. Three touches. maximum allowed. Any further touch and we'd have been eliminated in shame from a whip foul. Yet, I didn't think any touch was abusive. It was just a means to communicate from an increasingly weak rider to a big, strapping but laid back horse.

That is the situation right now.

I believe this new rule is because organisations can't allow abuse to continue and don't want argument so put in a three touch rule. I rarely compete any more - we were just there for a jolly and variety so I don't know if this is a widespread new rule or simply one for that particular venue. They did say something about complying in the future, so I do believe that in some way it will be more widespread.

The sad thing is, it really won't stop the actual abusers as they will likely double down at home when out of sight, to make sure they don't need to touch a horse with the padded baton when in the ring.

 

[tristars]

It's the spurs that need banning

 

[eahotson]

I disagree. I learned loads from Youtube, looked at loads by Shawna Karrasch as she seemed to talk sense, and through that taught the horses to touch a target, fetch sticks, bash a drum, etc etc and then refined it to clip legs, load on a box, race me to the mounting block etc etc. I also had an in-person lesson with her, which was somewhat disappointing, especially due to the distance and £££ it cost. But it was available in this country. I think she is one of the world experts on ++ training, and it was available in this country. People she taught also teach in this country, many were at that clinic and were taking her teachings forward.

Through that experience, I found people doing straightness training and had in-person lessons for that, which is not the same but very much along the lines of working with the horse.

Also for in-person lessons, I attended a couple of Andrew McLean clinics as a spectator, and followed it up with a ridden lesson. I loved his lessons on operant conditioning so much that I then had a load of lessons, over several years with his wife Manu, who would regularly travel to England. I think they have to be seen as world experts on Operant Conditioning, but they very much use pressure release rather than pure ++ training. They refined their craft with elephants of all things.

I found people who train with Manu McLean while I was there having my lessons, and they give lessons. I gave lessons too. In fact, the eventer who I was using mainly for XC training also had lessons and changed her training to include such work.

The fees for these people were similar to this who did not use such methods, albeit top end of normal trainers as opposed to the local BHS AI charging £25 an hour.

I also went on clinics and had ridden lessons with Mark Rashid. He used to come to England regularly, although I ended up travelling to his base in the US in the end as I really enjoyed his breathe with the horse mentality. That said, he is a real horseman and could be very firm with a horse on occasion. This firmness is, I think, what many are now missing. Increasing numbers of people want things to be 'Disney' and are not always prepared to step up and draw the line in the sand and back it up physically if necessary. He believes you should be as soft as you can be, which is not always as soft as you want to be. Sometimes as soft as you can be can be pretty active!

I heard the people wanting things to be 'Disney' from Buck Brannaman, BTW. He was in Liverpool, England, and there to be learned from. You could take your horse or watch. One time, he had a bit of a showdown with one horse.

I genuinely believe that good quality training IS available in this country. But you have to research and organise it. Plus it isn't bargain basement price. But I'd rather save and have fewer lessons from someone good rather than wander round in disarray.

BTW, I don't believe horses do use true ++ training in their own communities. Taking away food company and shelter is defo a negative reinforcer! Giving it back is the release, not a true ++ move.

A client had an aged horse who needed to learn to change the way she went. The horse was an ex-racer who went inverted and had physical issues. Through clicker training, responding only to positive moves towards what we sought, the horse not only learned to go the 'correct way up' but also to lengthen, relax and swing. The horse also learned Spanish Walk, or at least a facsimile of such a move, although initially it was more of a limp LOL, until the horse worked out that both legs were praised for this and both were extended. The horse enjoyed this and was ever more trying to outdo itself for the click.

I was charging a 'normal' training fee, albeit at the higher end of the scale, not the £25 an hour end. I believe it is worth paying a good trainer for the hours they have spent learning their craft, be that in clinics backed up with personal experience, or by making their own way and learning from their own mistakes.

It's not saying that I don't value clicker training and positive reinforcement, or operant conditioning, overshadowing etc etc. Operant conditioning includes pressure release. It is that I truly believe that, when push comes to shove in the real world, it is fairer and safer if the horse understands simple go/stop NOW without finding it a fluster. That they can follow direct commands without being upset as they know the release will come.

I agree with all people using these methods, but am disquieted when I see people trying to train using ++ only. Not for the horses as many of them have a fine old life, lounging in the field with their friends and ground working on nice experiments in the arena. The owners have achieved happiness for them alright. What makes me sad is those people who do really want to ride and have a great time. But they get stuck in this ++ only trap which, IMO doesn't translate safely to the situations they want to experience. If they could only mix what they have learned with some good old fashioned horsemanship, including appropriate correction, than the horses could still have a great life, but the riders could achieve their dreams too.

It is the abusers who are negatively affecting this happening, I believe. People are pushing back so far against abuse that they become afraid to use any force on a horse. Sometimes horses do need force (as in pressure) on them to be directed and to understand. Yes, they do not need punishment to be trained, but there is a difference between force applied to direct and help understanding, and force applied as retribution.

Personally I loathe Buck Brannaman .

 

[paddy555]

Do you think using a whip will be banned? I havent seen anything actually changing since CDJ etc? I personally dont think that's something we need to worry about!!

(I have also read all the rest with much interest thank you for sharing!)

why would or should it be. I can't see it happening out of the ring/events and even if it was people would find something else. Didn't Monty Roberts invent a Wip Wop rope. Is that any better? You can always find something else to beat the horse with. It is not the whip it is the person holding it. You might not beat it in the ring but sure as h*ll it may get a good beating beforehand,





I carry a schooling whip and I have used it. My riding horse is a stallion and I ride in an area with semi feral ponies. He is very good but it is nice to have it. We have used a whip harshly in the past when OH's stallion was attacked by another (a domestic one on a bridleway) we were glad of it to beat the horse off.

I would rather see a lot more control over what goes on the horse's head and over spurs than whips. Although I don't in any way condone the CDJ performance.

I think we are getting closer to the day when we are asking should horses be doing this or in fact what should they be doing. Going round and round a school for example. Is that a suitable life for a flight animal. Are we getting to the stage when so much land is taken for building, there is a lot less countryside for them to ride out in, there are far from ideal conditions for them to be kept in (cellular accomodation) and they are simply not dogs who want to curl up on the sofa they need a lot of space for a decent lifestyle.

perhaps horses will have to be kept far from urban areas to give them a good life and travelling to them (at week ends etc) will be the norm to give the horses a good life.

we have gone off track but there is little left to say about CDJ.

 

[Red-1]

Personally I loathe Buck Brannaman .

I only saw him the once and was glad my horse wasn't with me. I learned lots of helpful things but disliked others, such as endless loops. My two heavy horses would not do well with that, I don't think. I found there were too many horses in the arena, and they didn't get individual attention. I didn't look to study with him further, unlike the other trainers I mentioned, who I put myself out to have actual lessons with.

 

[I'm Dun]

The issue for me is when force causes fear for the sole purpose of our enjoyment. For safety, it’s important that a horse moves off your leg when you ask (on the road, for instance, this could be a matter of life or death) but causing fear or prolonged discomfort during training to ‘improve’ a way of going to gain higher marks in a dressage test is stepping into different territory. That’s not for the safety of people or animal. That’s simply a human wanting a pat on the back for their ability to train an animal.

I’m finding myself more and more conflicted about the use of horses in sport, and I never thought I’d ever say that.

I guess this is the crux of it.

I've had a horse who truly loved his work. He would call to me when I had his harness. He lit up when driving. I've had horses who think being ridden/driven is pretty fun sometimes and hard work other times. Sadly fat cobs need to work hard to keep them slim. I made and would continue to make the decision that lots of cantering round a big field was preferable to standing in a stable or being muzzled 24/7. Thats doing something the horse might not be thrilled about for the sake of the horse.

I have absolutely pushed horses too hard and done things that make me cringe looking back and they werent for the sake of the horse. Is it ok to do that? I dont think so anymore. This is amplified massively at the top end of competition. Why are we making horses do that? Its not for their sake. Why are we breeding these loose limbed genetic time bombs purely because they do well at something people like to do.

Its a hugely complicated subject with no black or white answers. Personally, I think the higher levels of any sport involving horses is asking too much of them for a humans benefit, usually money driven, and it doesnt sit well with me. And then you add in the abuse that happens, not with every rider, but with enough that it systemic, and how the hell do we justify that?