CDJ withdrawn from paris

Ambers Echo said:
This. Why the beef? Seems entirely unnecessary, patronising, arrogant and rude. For no obvious reason 🤷‍♀️

If someone has an issue with a specific bit of advice, critique it. Don't just imply you have superior knowlege, give the poster a bit of a kicking, then disengage.




Does anyone reading all this shxte give a damn, ask yourself why you sound so aggressive and if you unjustly said this to someone sensitive, how it could affect them
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SEL said:
I definitely saw him come into arenas looking a lot happier than many others and I don't see the same level of enjoyment in Glamourdale despite what CF says. He does look stressed to me. At London 2012 Valegro struck me by quite how different he was in his attitude in the team competition to everyone that had gone before and I wasn't expecting that. I'm not sure I saw him much after 2012 so perhaps it went downhill but there was nowhere near the tension that I have seen Charlotte ride with since. I got the sense when she was riding Pumpkin that she was searching for that same feeling, but not every horse can deliver. I think there will always be a certain level of tension at competitions but some horses do rise to the occasion (I have a 13h pony who lights up, but somehow I doubt she's Olympic material!)

Carl was very generous with him for charities and I know a lady who had the privilege of being allowed a play and said he came alive when people were watching.
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This (that some horses light up, etc.) is said a lot and I wonder if it's worth interrogating. What do we think horses are thinking/feeling in these situations?

- do they understand that it's a significant moment? If so, what kind of significance are they ascribing to it?
- does the rider change? Are they more tense/anxious/joyful/hopeful? Do they smell different, different heart rate/blood pressure?
- are we interpreting their reaction as a positive one? Why, what makes us take this view?
- are they reacting to going from being with other horses to being on their own, or to riding in file following another horse?
- is the atmosphere affecting them, if so is that a good feeling or are they just more adrenalised? If a small audience, do they have associations with people on foot when they are being ridden?

I suppose I'm asking because I can't see how a horse can have the same understanding of an event that we do so there must be some underlying reason for them to respond in that way.
 
@tristars I am not sure if that post where you quoted me was a full quote and you quoted someone else underneath me or whether the comment below my comments is you. Ie you asking me why I am being so aggressive and inviting me to think how that might come across to someone sensitive.

I never have any desire to cause anyone distress. But I am puzzled that you seem to feel attacked when to a neutral poster it was your posts that came across at attacking. And subsequent posts by me and others calling that out were intended to defend the posters your posts were dismissive of/rude to.

I am not replying further on that as this side discussion on saddles/saddle fitters has derailed the main discussion now.
 
Burnttoast said:
This (that some horses light up, etc.) is said a lot and I wonder if it's worth interrogating. What do we think horses are thinking/feeling in these situations?

- do they understand that it's a significant moment? If so, what kind of significance are they ascribing to it?
- does the rider change? Are they more tense/anxious/joyful/hopeful? Do they smell different, different heart rate/blood pressure?
- are we interpreting their reaction as a positive one? Why, what makes us take this view?
- are they reacting to going from being with other horses to being on their own, or to riding in file following another horse?
- is the atmosphere affecting them, if so is that a good feeling or are they just more adrenalised? If a small audience, do they have associations with people on foot when they are being ridden?

I suppose I'm asking because I can't see how a horse can have the same understanding of an event that we do so there must be some underlying reason for them to respond in that way.
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That is realy interesting. One of my RIs had what she described as an 'out and out' competition horse. At home she was a spooky mess and could only be schooled on a calm day, in warm sunshine with Mercury in reterograde.....

At competitions she came off the box dry and calm, and spent the day with ears pricked and focusing on the job. Locking on, surging, bold positive. She went 2* and had long seemingly happy career. Mostly spent hacking at home, limited other training as needed for the dressage and jump phases and competing. She then went lame and was retired but absolutely could not cope with retirement and was PTS in the end because she was so stressed and unhappy wihout a job to do/when not in work.

So what's going on there then? Genuinely no idea and it's a very good quesiton to think about.
 
Ambers Echo said:
@tristars I am not sure if that post where you quoted me was a full quote and you quoted someone else underneath me or whether the comment below my comments is you. Ie you asking me why I am being so aggressive and inviting me to think how that might come across to someone sensitive.

I never have any desire to cause anyone distress. But I am puzzled that you seem to feel attacked when to a neutral poster it was your posts that came across at attacking. And subsequent posts by me and others calling that out were intended to defend the posters your posts were dismissive of/rude to.

I am not replying further on that as this side discussion on saddles/saddle fitters has thznk




Thank god for that
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Ambers Echo said:
That is realy interesting. One of my RIs had what she described as an 'out and out' competition horse. At home she was a spooky mess and could only be schooled on a calm day, in warm sunshine with Mercury in reterograde.....

At competitions she came off the box dry and calm, and spent the day with ears pricked and focusing on the job. Locking on, surging, bold positive. She went 2* and had long seemingly happy career. Mostly spent hacking at home, limited other training as needed for the dressage and jump phases and competing. She then went lame and was retired but absolutely could not cope with retirement and was PTS in the end because she was so stressed and unhappy wihout a job to do/when not in work.

So what's going on there then? Genuinely no idea and it's a very good quesiton to think about.
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That is a peculiar one! Was 'home' the same place all her ridden/retired life do you know?
 
Yes she retired at 'home' - she was not sent away. Just not sure how old she was when my RI got her. She was not home-bred. But bought young I think
 
Ambers Echo said:
Yes she retired at 'home' - she was not sent away. Just not sure how old she was when my RI got her. She was not home-bred. But bought young I think
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Just wondering if there was one of those things (one of those woo-woo things! 🤣 ) that some horses seem sensitive to in her own environment that she couldn't cope with when also being asked questions. It's intriguing.
 
She was a spooky mess at arena hires for schooling/training too and needed a very lengthy pre-ride routine to get her brain engaged. But she 'lit up' competing.
 
Ambers Echo said:
People do say some horses 'need a job' and 'thrive off work' and 'light up in the ring'. I've never really questioned it. Till your post made me start wondering.
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Oh yes, it's really commonly said. It just doesn't seem very logical given what we know about their ethology, so I do wonder about it.
 
scats said:
I think the issue is, CDJ is not really doing anything differently in her riding than she’s always done. It’s just that now it’s being scrutinised because of the incident and the ban.

She’s always ridden them that way- with a death grip in the hand and the leg constantly wanting more.
The same media outlets that applauded her when she was a celebrated Olympian are now pulling her apart, when the reality is her riding is really no different to how it’s always been.

I’m not saying this is right or wrong, it’s just an observation. She’s not come back suddenly riding harsher and stronger, she’s come back doing exactly the same thing that she was previously praised for.
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I agree. I've always thought that she was a very stiff rider. If she's not relaxed then how can the horse be?
 
Burnttoast said:
Oh yes, it's really commonly said. It just doesn't seem very logical given what we know about their ethology, so I do wonder about it.
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I think, it's rubbish...

The fact of needing a job...

Also, travelling round the world in planes, jumping during the night enormous fences, rarely seeing grass,
yes probably, some horses might even buy their own planes tickets if they could...

People are saying that, so they feel less guilty abusing them...
 
Janique said:
I think, it's rubbish...

The fact of needing a job...

Also, travelling round the world in planes, jumping during the night enormous fences, rarely seeing grass,
yes probably, some horses might even buy their own planes tickets if they could...

People are saying that, so they feel less guilty abusing them...
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I think it can be true a little bit, in that horses enjoy a routine. They feel safer if they know whats coming and how they are supposed to respond. The ever magic word; consistency. I'm sure many of them do struggle if they are retired suddenly and their whole lives change.

But yes, that's not what the people who say it mean.
 
Janique said:
I think, it's rubbish...

The fact of needing a job...

Also, travelling round the world in planes, jumping during the night enormous fences, rarely seeing grass,
yes probably, some horses might even buy their own planes tickets if they could...

People are saying that, so they feel less guilty abusing them...
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Yes quite often, perhaps, but it doesn't really explain, say, AE's instructor's horse who only seemed to be really settled actually at competitions, or perfectly non-abusive people who don't actually say 'horses must have a job' but notice a bit of what we might call extra sparkle when there's an audience. Yes, probably that sparkle is adrenaline, but that's not necessarily abusive in of itself. I still think it's worth thinking about why some horses appear to "enjoy" an outing or an audience so that we can actually characterise it more accurately.
 
Ambers Echo said:
People do say some horses 'need a job' and 'thrive off work' and 'light up in the ring'. I've never really questioned it. Till your post made me start wondering.
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Burnttoast said:
Oh yes, it's really commonly said. It just doesn't seem very logical given what we know about their ethology, so I do wonder about it.
Click to expand...

Janique said:
I think, it's rubbish...

The fact of needing a job...

Also, travelling round the world in planes, jumping during the night enormous fences, rarely seeing grass,
yes probably, some horses might even buy their own planes tickets if they could...

People are saying that, so they feel less guilty abusing them...
Click to expand...

If you've ever had one that "lived" for competitions, you wouldn't doubt it.

I had one, an event horse, bought young and stayed with me for life. It was before I had an arena, so all my schooling was done out hacking, which he tolerated, but enjoyed his jumping schooling in a fairly relaxed fashion.

But at competitions, he was a different personality entirely...he would drag his feet to the dressage, performing a very mediocre uninspiring test.....then , on his way back to the lorry, his head would come up, ears forward and twice the stride length....an attitude he kept until after the cross country. Then relaxed and ate grass.

When he retired, he became rather grumpy, especially when the lorry went out without him......and when I left him loose on the yard with the back of the lorry open, he would load himself, and stand up there with ears pricked and a very happy look of what I can only describe as anticipation on his face.

He may not have "needed" a job....but he was a hell of a lot happier when he was doing what he seemed to love.
 
Burnttoast said:
I just want to pick up on the last point with an anecdote of my own. I once briefly did a bit of work in exchange for lessons for a local rider (competing at GP but never going to trouble the selectors kind of level). I brought his GP horse in once (they were turned out so I suppose that's a plus) and it literally dragged me to him down the length of the barn, which I thought very cute at the time. A week or so later I was in the barn skipping out and I heard the gate of the lunge pen shut. Popped my head out and through the open barn door saw him absolutely leathering that same horse with a schooling whip. And I mean leathering. I didn't own a smart phone and I was the only other person on the yard. I didn't go back though, and I tell people who to avoid. Some of them tell me oh yes, he's always been like that. The moral of the story I guess is that horses are complicated and not always the best witnesses to their own abuse.
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Are you saying you saw Carl Hester “leathering” a horse, not quite clear…
 
I think horses can enjoy different elements to what they do. I mean why wouldn't they - they have clear preferences in other areas of life and surely some get bored doing noting. Some are playful and active in the field. Lottie was indifferent to dressage - willing enough but unenthusiastic. She hated groundwork. And she clearly loved hacking. To the extent that if you came to a junction and dropped the reins to let her choose she would turn away from home to go further. And sometimes briefly planted if you tried to say - no home time now. And when she jumped her demeanour was much more like it was when she hacked. So I think she liked it.
 
Burnttoast said:
I once briefly did a bit of work in exchange for lessons for a local rider (competing at GP but never going to trouble the selectors kind of level).
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Marshpiper said:
Are you saying you saw Carl Hester “leathering” a horse, not quite clear…
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I think quite clear it wasn’t CH?
 
Ambers Echo said:
People do say some horses 'need a job' and 'thrive off work' and 'light up in the ring'. I've never really questioned it. Till your post made me start wondering.
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One of mine was like that. Hell, one of my dogs is like that. I dont think that its uncommon at all. Horses arent stupid or all the same, they have preferences and likes and understand what we want from them most of the time. The same buzzy, happy little horse who whinnied when he saw his tack and lit up when out and about, would also drop his head and amble round with a total novice child on him. I think he liked both things, and there was something so nice about competing him, he was happy to be there and he helped me out when I made mistakes, and when he won things he was a poncy, prancing ball of all the happys! If he ever did pony rides for kids, he just mentally went to sleep, switched off, but not in a dead eyed way, just went, ah ok, ambling with a happy child who will brush me and fuss over me and probably give me treats, great! What he did not like at all was someone who was heavy handed and ragged him about and he was very clear on that too.

Ive watched one of my dogs who doesnt really like noisy loud people or people roughly handling him, stand quietly of his own violition while a disabled child screamed with joy and thump patted him. He was loose and could have moved at any time, and I refuse to believe that he didn't understand what he was doing. Ive absolutely had horses who would put up with the abuse the dressage horses do, and still keep trying and still have affection for me. Ive had others who would have been broken down mentally by it.

And now I'm derailing. But animals arent black and white. They can be kind, grumpy, happy, fed up, hate the stress of competing, or light up when they do. And they can be all of those things at different times and for different people.
 
Burnttoast said:
This (that some horses light up, etc.) is said a lot and I wonder if it's worth interrogating. What do we think horses are thinking/feeling in these situations?

- do they understand that it's a significant moment? If so, what kind of significance are they ascribing to it?
- does the rider change? Are they more tense/anxious/joyful/hopeful? Do they smell different, different heart rate/blood pressure?
- are we interpreting their reaction as a positive one? Why, what makes us take this view?
- are they reacting to going from being with other horses to being on their own, or to riding in file following another horse?
- is the atmosphere affecting them, if so is that a good feeling or are they just more adrenalised? If a small audience, do they have associations with people on foot when they are being ridden?

I suppose I'm asking because I can't see how a horse can have the same understanding of an event that we do so there must be some underlying reason for them to respond in that way.
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She's as far from Olympic dressage as you can get but my 13h native x just adores turning up at competition venues. I took her showing (not my thing but it was local & they needed support) & it was like I'd taken a different pony when she got off the box.

Not wound up, not over the threshold - just absolutely convinced everyone was there to see her. She's did the same when I took her to support a riding club dressage day. I don't believe she'd picked any vibes from me because on both those occasions I was very much CBA!

When my old Ardennes was still alive (ex Giffords Circus) he would be the main man if a children's party was being held at the yard. He couldn't be excluded or he'd walk through the fences to join in. My Appy would be 3 acres away thinking it was her idea of hell.

I think if you've never had a horse that enjoys something its hard to believe they can - which is sad really because they don't all want to live in fields for 24 hours.
 
Dave loves a show. ALL THESE PEOPLE to give him attention, including a guy on a mobility scooter that I expected would send him into orbit, no he gave that bloke the biggest snuggle.
He loves to chat to people.
He wasn't scared of the horse drawn farm machinery, although he looked a bit confused at the Private Driving.
He does light up in the ring. Albeit I have only shown him in hand at County level.
 
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