CDJ withdrawn from paris

[tristars]

If you have ever bred horses with the inbred talents and intelligence to be working horses it is a different kind of responsibility to allow them to express the inborn urges they have

By training them to reach some or most of their potential

Which factors in the ease with which they can arrive at the functional point that gives them a pride in their work and rewards the riders efforts

 

[PurpleSpots]

express the inborn urges they have

They might be genetically predisposed to have traits which help them to (for example) jump well, but I strongly doubt if any horse ever has inborn urges to take part in human-orientated jumping competitions. They might jump from one field to another with more ease than another horse with less jumping traits, but the concept of a group of jumping-bred horses lining up in the field timing each other to see who can clear a course of jumps the fastest, without human input, is (sorry) just preposterous to me.

pride in their work

This is a completely human concept.

 

[tristars]

They might be genetically predisposed to have traits which help them to (for example) jump well, but I strongly doubt if any horse ever has inborn urges to take part in human-orientated jumping competitions. They might jump from one field to another with more ease than another horse with less jumping traits, but the concept of a group of jumping-bred horses lining up in the field timing each other to see who can clear a course of jumps the fastest, without human input, is (sorry) just preposterous to me.



This is a completely human concept.

I am talking about working horses.

competition something else


The eyes shining with pride communicating their sense of elation after their work

 

[smolmaus]

If ethics are to be purely personal, individualism reigns supreme.
That is extreme nonsense, and entirely contrary to principles of any sort of welfare, or criminal code. Any child / wife / dog / horse beater could apply their own ‘ethical standards’ - be very careful what you wish for.
You have the definition of ethics.
What I read on this forum, from various contributors, is a general sort of idea that the notion of ethics and ethical training sound very principled and admirable; but that what many contributors actually mean is that their, personal view of things must be the ‘ethical’ one, and anyone who disagrees or does differently must be ‘unethical’, and therefore bad - in contrast.
That’s illogical, blinkered to the point of intolerance, and about as arrogant as it gets.

I don't know how you know what other contributors "actually mean" when you don't seem to read their posts.

What I was clarifying was what I meant when I used the term "ethical training" was a very broad umbrella term that as far as I am aware, is fairly generally accepted. I didnt give any information on my own personal ethical viewpoints.

And of course everyone thinks their own personal view of things is correct. That's how having opinions works. I'm sure some people happily believe things they know are wrong, but I would say most of us believe we are generally correct in how we see things, or we probably wouldn't see things that way!

 

[Burnttoast]

I am talking about working horses.

competition something else


The eyes shining with pride communicating their sense of elation after their work

That's entirely your perception of their expression and one that's entirely convenient for the human, as it supports their own desire to continue doing what they are doing with the horse. Other people may well interpret it differently - as heightened arousal owing to adrenaline, for example. The likelihood of horses understanding either the concept of work or the concept of pride is negligible.

 

[Beausmate]

They might be genetically predisposed to have traits which help them to (for example) jump well, but I strongly doubt if any horse ever has inborn urges to take part in human-orientated jumping competitions. They might jump from one field to another with more ease than another horse with less jumping traits, but the concept of a group of jumping-bred horses lining up in the field timing each other to see who can clear a course of jumps the fastest, without human input, is (sorry) just preposterous to me.



This is a completely human concept.

Some horses that work cattle will do it all by themselves. I actually had a thoroughbred that had 'the eye' for working cattle. Mules are also excellent with cows, if that's how they're bred.

Bit like Collies and their herding instincts.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

If you have ever bred horses with the inbred talents and intelligence to be working horses it is a different kind of responsibility to allow them to express the inborn urges they have

By training them to reach some or most of their potential

Which factors in the ease with which they can arrive at the functional point that gives them a pride in their work and rewards the riders efforts

They don't have pride in their work....their brains just don't work like that. Horse brains are tiny.

Though yes you can breed horses that are 'cowy', horses with naturally uphill paces or that naturally collect (iberians) or even horses that naturally do that obscene four beat hobble canter encouraged in Western pleasure, so when a horse is asked to do that by a human, they find it easier.

 

[Beausmate]

Not pride, no. But some horses definitely appear to enjoy doing what they're good at.

Our extremely clever, vintage mare would be highly insulted if someone accused her of having a tiny brain!

 

[tristars]

That's entirely your perception of their expression and one that's entirely convenient for the human, as it supports their own desire to continue doing what they are doing with the horse. Other people may well interpret it differently - as heightened arousal owing to adrenaline, for example. The likelihood of horses understanding either the concept of work or the concept of pride is negligible.

Theres nothing convenient about it, !!!!!! i work long and hard to ensure i get get physical and emotional responses, good feedback

My training is led by following the individual horses reaction, the horse comes first

I think you you need to study hormones and their cause and effect, before telling me your examples, no need for adrenalin here matey

Your last sentence is probably the written on the walls of helgstrands training facility, well and a lot of others it would appear

Which might explain the holes is horses sides and quite a few bleeding mouths

And the crisis dressage finds itself in

 

[tristars]

They don't have pride in their work....their brains just don't work like that. Horse brains are tiny.

Though yes you can breed horses that are 'cowy', horses with naturally uphill paces or that naturally collect (iberians) or even horses that naturally do that obscene four beat hobble canter encouraged in Western pleasure, so when a horse is asked to do that by a human, they find it easier.

I can assure you that my horses do have pride and self esteem, both these things contribute to the self confidence that enables them to work, with minimal intervention from the rider

It removes from the horse the distraction that at any moment it may be yanked in the gob, poked with spurs, or that someone will run behind it with a lunge whip and thrash holy hamlet out of its arse , after all that is what this thread is about

Im not sure brain size is an issue here, there are other factors at work

When i get on a horses back my first thought , how are you today my friend, how do you feel?, when i get off the horse, i say thankyou and give it hug and a kiss on the nose

I think dealing with horses means connecting with them on many levels, physical, emotional, inter species re connection from the previous session, adjustments for a new and different day

 

[Barklands]

They may not have pride in their work the same way humans do but you can absolutely feel the difference between those self-assured, confident horses who have had a slow and sympathetic start and those who have been rushed and forced into submission - they need much more hand holding. I strongly feel horses are much, much more intelligent than we give them credit for and it is our human ego which makes us think otherwise.

 

[SEL]

Just because horses have brains the size of walnuts doesn't mean they can't experience certain things. I've certainly had horses express pride in something. Possibly picking up vibes from their humans, but sometimes just them.

My little pony certainly seemed to express pride after I watched her slowly and thoroughly dismantle the electric tape around the muck heap so she could reach grass. She stepped onto that patch with a shake of her mane and a glow.

 

[Barklands]

Another much sadder example of mine is that I had to put down a mare recently due to horrific laminitis. She was never a very cuddly horse but on her last morning, I kept cuddling her neck and rather than moving away like she did normally, she kept turning her neck round and cuddling in. That morning I had an overwhelming sense that she knew that she was saying goodbye and that she was ready. Could it be self projection? Possibly, but I'll never be able to explain why that morning of all mornings she was acting so different. They are much more apt at reading body language and reading situations than we are. They are so observant and I am certain they know us better than we know them. As such (and back to the point of this thread!) they should be treated with the huge amount of respect that they deserve and it is a privilege not a right that they allow us to clamber onto their backs.

 

[tristars]

Another much sadder example of mine is that I had to put down a mare recently due to horrific laminitis. She was never a very cuddly horse but on her last morning, I kept cuddling her neck and rather than moving away like she did normally, she kept turning her neck round and cuddling in. That morning I had an overwhelming sense that she knew that she was saying goodbye and that she was ready. Could it be self projection? Possibly, but I'll never be able to explain why that morning of all mornings she was acting so different. They are much more apt at reading body language and reading situations than we are. They are so observant and I am certain they know us better than we know them. As such (and back to the point of this thread!) they should be treated with the huge amount of respect that they deserve and it is a privilege not a right that they allow us to clamber onto their backs.

Oh god, so sorry about your mare, tears here

Perhaps you and her felt so close that day

Brillant post

 

[tristars]

Just because horses have brains the size of walnuts doesn't mean they can't experience certain things. I've certainly had horses express pride in something. Possibly picking up vibes from their humans, but sometimes just them.

My little pony certainly seemed to express pride after I watched her slowly and thoroughly dismantle the electric tape around the muck heap so she could reach grass. She stepped onto that patch with a shake of her mane and a glow.

Yeah that sense of achievement

 

[Burnttoast]

Theres nothing convenient about it, !!!!!! i work long and hard to ensure i get get physical and emotional responses, good feedback

My training is led by following the individual horses reaction, the horse comes first

I think you you need to study hormones and their cause and effect, before telling me your examples, no need for adrenalin here matey

Your last sentence is probably the written on the walls of helgstrands training facility, well and a lot of others it would appear

Which might explain the holes is horses sides and quite a few bleeding mouths

And the crisis dressage finds itself in

Wow you can be really unpleasant and clearly understand little of what other posters on this thread write.

I think you'll find it's the other way around. Arguing that horses don't understand the concept of feeling pride in their work removes one of the major supports people use to justify poor training: "horses enjoy their work or they wouldn't do it." It says we need to examine what we ask them to do a lot more carefully.

But it sound like it's necessary for your self construction that you believe that horses feel just like a human does.

 

[Burnttoast]

Just because horses have brains the size of walnuts doesn't mean they can't experience certain things. I've certainly had horses express pride in something. Possibly picking up vibes from their humans, but sometimes just them.

My little pony certainly seemed to express pride after I watched her slowly and thoroughly dismantle the electric tape around the muck heap so she could reach grass. She stepped onto that patch with a shake of her mane and a glow.

Is she radioactive?

 

[Exasperated]

I don't know how you know what other contributors "actually mean" when you don't seem to read their posts.

What I was clarifying was what I meant when I used the term "ethical training" was a very broad umbrella term that as far as I am aware, is fairly generally accepted. I didnt give any information on my own personal ethical viewpoints.

And of course everyone thinks their own personal view of things is correct. That's how having opinions works. I'm sure some people happily believe things they know are wrong, but I would say most of us believe we are generally correct in how we see things, or we probably wouldn't see things that way!

There is confusion between ethics, morals, values, beliefs on this forum, altho probable that most using the terms would simply like to see some happier experiences for horses and other creatures.

I read what is written: your ‘ethics’ are personal, and therefore your actions governed by them must be right because you fully believe in yourself.

Ok, most of us probably have more self-doubt and re appraisal than that, but the consequences of such belief, which effectively condemns different approaches as ‘unethical’, is less acceptable ( altho not for you).

It is a largely human concept to try to limit the free will of others in order to be convenienced by their lack of it.

If you watch a group of animals in their natural, or near-natural, habitat and with freedom to exist as their species dictates, all beings have autonomy, freedom to express desires, the ability to have and express feelings, etc. Whether they understand the concepts or not, they simply live them. As do other species interacting with that first species.

It's only really humans who try to take over completely for their own gain. Other species do sometimes take advantage of other beings, but they don't usually completely limit their free will. We are, on the whole, a pretty rubbish species when it comes to interacting with the world and other beings around us.
I don't mean that personally to anyone reading this (including myself), it's simply our species on the whole.

If humans had not risen to being the most influential beings on the planet then the world would be a very different - and dare I say it better - place. To improve how we affect the world around us we need to look to other species, not keep patting ourselves on the back for being right about everything. Because we're not. And the only way we have any chance of hearing the input of other species is to actually allow them to express themselves freely. Otherwise we are just artificially creating the answers in them that we want to hear. Because we can. And we shouldn't.

No sane observer of current conflicts in Ukraine or Middle East would disagree. Destruction of people, creatures and environment on which we all depend..... A lifetime’s conscientious energy-saving and recycling obliterated every time one of those warplanes even leaves the ground, never mind starts using the weaponry - ha!
Altho, plenty of people, including posters elsewhere on this forum, talk about ‘just’ wars and vindicate conflicts, and we have established that use of fear and force can sometimes be justified in compelling other beings to act....

However I am still waiting for your clarifications on the ‘ethics’ of requiring horses (and possibly other species) to do things, or maybe not to do things, as outlined in posts 4,514, 4519, 4526.

And when doing those things is primarily for the wellbeing of the human, yet not deleterious or unpleasant for the horse?
Make it easy - perhaps the neurodivergent child deriving joy from riding a pony which preferred to remain eating with its pals, took 5 minutes to catch, then dived enthusiastically into the bucket of carrots while being saddled up?

And where would you ‘ethically’ draw the line on the sliding scale of horse/human interaction?

 

[tristars]

Wow you can be really unpleasant and clearly understand little of what other posters on this thread write.

I think you'll find it's the other way around. Arguing that horses don't understand the concept of feeling pride in their work removes one of the major supports people use to justify poor training: "horses enjoy their work or they wouldn't do it." It says we need to examine what we ask them to do a lot more carefully.

But it sound like it's necessary for your self construction that you believe that horses feel just like a human






Perhaps it may not occur to you i find you equally unpleasant, but decline to say whether i do or not in the interests of politeness

 

[tristars]

There is confusion between ethics, morals, values, beliefs on this forum, altho probable that most using the terms would simply like to see some happier experiences for horses and other creatures.

I read what is written: your ‘ethics’ are personal, and therefore your actions governed by them must be right because you fully believe in yourself.

Ok, most of us probably have more self-doubt and re appraisal than that, but the consequences of such belief, which effectively condemns different approaches as ‘unethical’, is less acceptable ( altho not for you).



No sane observer of current conflicts in Ukraine or Middle East would disagree. Destruction of people, creatures and environment on which we all depend..... A lifetime’s conscientious energy-saving and recycling obliterated every time one of those warplanes even leaves the ground, never mind starts using the weaponry - ha!
Altho, plenty of people, including posters elsewhere on this forum, talk about ‘just’ wars and vindicate conflicts, and we have established that use of fear and force can sometimes be justified in compelling other beings to act....

However I am still waiting for your clarifications on the ‘ethics’ of requiring horses (and possibly other species) to do things, or maybe not to do things, as outlined in posts 4,514, 4519, 4526.

And when doing those things is primarily for the wellbeing of the human, yet not deleterious or unpleasant for the horse?
Make it easy - perhaps the neurodivergent child deriving joy from riding a pony which preferred to remain eating with its pals, took 5 minutes to catch, then dived enthusiastically into the bucket of carrots while being saddled up?

And where would you ‘ethically’ draw the line on the sliding scale of horse/human interaction?

Every plume smoke makes think of re cyclying efforts

 

[Exasperated]

They might be genetically predisposed to have traits which help them to (for example) jump well, but I strongly doubt if any horse ever has inborn urges to take part in human-orientated jumping competitions. They might jump from one field to another with more ease than another horse with less jumping traits, but the concept of a group of jumping-bred horses lining up in the field timing each other to see who can clear a course of jumps the fastest, without human input, is (sorry) just preposterous to me.



This is a completely human concept.

Pride is a sin, another human concept, and if a zebra had written the Bible instead of humans, guess what - God would look just like a zebra....
Being pleased with oneself (and sometimes very pleased indeed) for having achieved something is absolutely something creatures experience - whether that is undoing the electric fence, getting to the top of a hill or receiving lavish praise and cuddling for successfully penning the sheep.
Very reductionist to pretend animals don’t experience complex emotions, of course they do.

 

[Mrs Jingle]

Altho, plenty of people, including posters elsewhere on this forum, talk about ‘just’ wars and vindicate conflicts,

Desperately trying to stay off this thread and sitting on my hands here deliberately not responding to some of the more outlandish opinions. But aside from all that please can poster direct me to posts on this forum that talk about 'just wars' and vindicate conflict. Do you mean that in terms that they (plenty of forum members you mention) condone 'just wars' and vindictive conflict? I realise it is off topic but as poster is using this point to back up her own opinion I would truly like to read the source of her statement.

 

[Exasperated]

Desperately trying to stay off this thread and sitting on my hands here deliberately not responding to some of the more outlandish opinions. But aside from all that please can poster direct me to posts on this forum that talk about 'just wars' and vindicate conflict. Do you mean that in terms that they (plenty of forum members you mention) condone 'just wars' and vindictive conflict? I realise it is off topic but as poster is using this point to back up her own opinion I would truly like to read the source of her statement.

You need to go back to allied defence of Ukraine, Israeli responses in Gaza differences of opinion posts (and possibly others? You’ll have been on this forum longer than many, and been rather too many armed conflicts during its existence)

 

[Mrs Jingle]

You need to go back to allied defence of Ukraine, Israeli responses in Gaza differences of opinion posts (and possibly others? You’ll have been on this forum longer than many, and been rather too many armed conflicts during its existence)

I do not 'need' to go back to anything but thank you for suggestion. I accept that you are unable to clarify or justify your statement as requested and therefore I shall treat it as unsubstantiated.

 

[tristars]

Pride is a sin, another human concept, and if a zebra had written the Bible instead of humans, guess what - God would look just like a zebra....
Being pleased with oneself (and sometimes very pleased indeed) for having achieved something is absolutely something creatures experience - whether that is undoing the electric fence, getting to the top of a hill or receiving lavish praise and cuddling for successfully penning the sheep.
Very reductionist to pretend animals don’t experience complex emotions, of course they do.

Very funny, but do zebra s neigh i wonder!!!!!!!!

Yes thats it we are not acknowledging enough, complex emotions and complex endocrinology to be honest

Sorry exas, really

 

[PurpleSpots]

So different tactics now then - engaging in 'reductio ad absurdum', blatantly mis-quoting (by forcing an altered interpretation of what has actually been written in the context it was) or deliberately misinterpreting things which have been written clearly.

For example - I didn't state that I believe horses (or any animal) have only basic emotions. To suggest I did, or that I think that, is just preposterous.

However, it IS true that I don't believe they feel any sense of positivity at simply serving or pleasing humans. They may derive pleasure from a situation involving humans which the humans also derive enjoyment from if the humans set things up in a way that ensures the horses (or other animals) do too, and without detriment to the animal, but to do that the human/s have to take on board what a horse or other animal actually wants in life, and how they actually feel. You can only really achieve that knowledge, understanding and potential for correct interpretation by working with them or observing them at liberty, and ideally in their natural habitat if at all possible, otherwise you're just seeing coping mechanisms within a domestic or restricted/confined situation which can give a completely false picture.

If you don't take the trouble to really explore whether the horse or other animal is ACTUALLY driving pleasure from a situation, and give the animal the option to truly and freely show that they don't, it goes back to setting a situation up so only the answer you want can be given.

It can be really upsetting to do your absolute best to make things nice for a horse/dog/cat/hamster/any animal, only to find that you've got it wrong, but being willing and open to accept that outcome is the only way to know you're doing it for them and not yourself. Or at least as equally for them as for you.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Do some of you guys want to find your own place for point scoring and bitching at each other.
I'm finding it rather tedious when I pop back to this (and a couple of other threads) that the same little crowd have derailed it into their personal battleground, again.

It goes without saying that not everyone has the same opinion nor have most people had similar experience, but to keep stridently harping on, rehashing posts is getting quite irritating.

It's Sunday, go and put the Internet down for a bit, please!

 

[FieldOrnaments]

Do some of you guys want to find your own place for point scoring and bitching at each other.
I'm finding it rather tedious when I pop back to this (and a couple of other threads) that the same little crowd have derailed it into their personal battleground, again.

It goes without saying that not everyone has the same opinion nor have most people had similar experience, but to keep stridently harping on, rehashing posts is getting quite irritating.

It's Sunday, go and put the Internet down for a bit, please!

I think everyone needs to go and put their face against their horses neck and do a big inhale.... Take in some of nature's best chill pill.

Maybe we just need to accept it really is horses for courses, unless explicit harm is being caused do what's right for the horse in front of you and don't worry about what others are doing (unless there's actual harm occurring) cos people are never going to agree on bits or bit less, rugged or not, training, techniques, or how horses learn.... Civilized and open debate where both sides are open to learning from the other are a good thing and very enjoyable but undercut remarks and other such childish things are not

noli nocere sed noli cacare

 

[I'm Dun]

I think this has a lot to do with why most humans prefer pets to wildlife. Wild animals have their own existence, you can't tell them what to do and they aren't 'there' when it's convenient for the human. I love wildlife watching, where you can't be offended by the fact that practically every time you see an interesting-looking bird in the distance it chooses the exact moment you pick up your binoculars to fly off, never to be seen again. No control. Many people are lacking a sense of control in their lives, and pets help satisfy that whether they (the pets) want to or not. That sometimes gives me the ick slightly, particularly when you see someone projecting their anger or anxiety onto their animals by demanding greater compliance or performance or by being an insecure, unpredictable place for the animal to be.

Actually in the case of dogs its because during evolution they hijacked a lot of chemical responses that are usually associated with human off spring, and once they hijacked them, they set about exploiting them, and thus dogs became the first choice for pets. Theres several things they do, but most of them result in a burst of chemicals which make people and dogs, feel good. Its absolutely remarkable when you look at it as an overall process. I now lovingly refer to mine as the leeches

 

[PurpleSpots]

unless explicit harm is being caused

But it is to some horses, many in fact, and that's what the whole topic of this thread is about.

Alot of people seem to be taking it all so personally and then get defensive, and seem to try to find arguments against protocols which would actually help those horses in the world who ARE living miserable lives at the hands of humans when they are used for sport.