Central Park Horses, New York

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I follow a blog by an author called Jon Katz, which is called "Bedlam Farm Journal." Beautiful photographs and reflections on life and animals, although until very recently not horse related. However, Jon K has taken an interest in the fact that the horses that pull tourist carts round Central Park are under grave threat.

The issues seem to be - animal rights people saying that cities are no places for horses, that they are being held in captivity and used as slaves, etc etc. The mayor of NY is apparently backing this. Many people believe that there's a sub text of developers wanting the prime real estate site where the horses are stabled to build apartments...palms being greased perhaps.

Anyway, Jon Katz is writing very eloquently and has also visited the stables (though he knows very little about horses), and he is very saddened that the horses are likely to be lost. It's his belief that NY will be the poorer for the loss of the horses, for a whole host of reasons. He argues that if cities are no places for horses they are equally no places for dogs, or cats, or even humans...so the animal right argument falls down. Jon keeps a working collie, and has a rescue donkey, and is very comfortable with working animals, believing that they can enjoy their work if they are well kept and they have a purpose.

Anyway, the long and short of it is that the Central Park horses are very likely to be lost and replaced by electric carts to take tourists round. I'll nail my colours to the mast and say that to me that sounds like something from a hideous dystopian future...maybe we'll have robo dogs and robo cats too, by and by. I think the horses are well regulated and welfare standards are good, and I agree with JK that they enrich the lives of the city people.

I thought I'd raise awareness here and see what people in the UK think. Sorry for rambling on ;)
 
Sad to hear this, i enjoyed seeing the horses round central park last year. But money talks I guess.
I did wonder what sort of condition they would be in but I never saw any signs of poor care or treatment .
Would be a shame
 
I do think the idea of horse drawn carriages is lovely.

My problem with the horses in NY is that they look so scruffy. There is no standard of turnout whatsoever. The horses have long untidy manes and tails and no polish or gleaming coats.

If they would only have some pride in their appearance and turn them out to near show standard I think that would better represent the city of NY.
 
I think the long untidy manes and tails (I didn't notice this, but you should see my horse's mane and tail) might conceivably be less important than the fact that they are stabled in Midtown, on West 52nd, and in Chelsea in the West 30s and the stables take up a lot of space. The group leading the fight against them is called NYCLASS, ostensibly an animal rights organisation lead by one Steve Nislick, a real estate developer with interests in developing, wait for it, property in Midtown and Chelsea. One of Mayor Bill de Blasio's major campaign donors was, of course, one Steve Nislick.

Slimy NYC politics-as-usual. Unfortunately the poor horses are in the middle of this fight.
 
I would hasten to add that the mayor himself cannot snap his fingers and ban anything. He has to get the City Council to do it, and they can't get rid of a whole industry with a snap of their collective fingers either without jumping through some legal hoops and p$ssing off the Teamster's Union, of which the carriage drivers are members. But if that all were to happen, I have no doubt that it would then enter a world of litigation.
 
Having been to New York many times and seen these horses, I always think they look in pretty good condition generally, however seeing them belting through the streets of New York in the baking summer heat never sits well with me.
 
I've been to New York recently and I wasn't very impressed with the horse & carriages. To me they looked scruffy (not necessarily a view shared by many) and not well handled.

In the 'queue' (not sure what they call the rest/waiting area) they were abreast as there were quite a few there and the carriages were sticking out into the road, yes vehicles should give them room but cars and buses were brushing past really close and it looked like the horses were in real danger of getting hurt. One of the was brought a bucket of water and his neighbour was obviously thirsty and they started fighting over the bucket, desperately trying to get a drink. Handlers answer was to take the water away.

Some of the horses and carriages looked really smart, coats gleaming in good condition, good feet etc and I would of gone in those carriages but they wouldn't let us choose and kept trying to get is in the one in front which was the exact opposite so we declined.
 
I saw Bill DeBlasio interviewed on the Daily Show last night and I was reminded of why this is scary sh$t and why the equine industry in the US is -- rightfully so -- going a bit bonkers about this. He told Jon Stewart that the reason he wants to get rid of carriages is that the horses are not living the sort of lives horses ought to live and they shouldn't be on the roads in traffic. There are NO specific allegations of abuse. He knows nothing about horses. He has not been to the stables. Jon could have got after him, asking, "Do you even know how to assess the condition of a horse? Do you even know the basics of horse management? Have you even been to the stables? (he hasn't)" but he didn't, to my great annoyance.

As we know from reading forums like this, not even horse people can agree on how horses *should* be kept. If this is his line, though, he should surely get rid of the racetrack at Aqueduct because those horses are also stabled 24/7 except when racing or exercising and the catastrophic breakdown and accident rates at any racetrack far surpass that of the Central Park carriage horses. So if this is the reasoning, Aqueduct's gotta go. He should also get rid of the boarding stables in Brooklyn, the Bronx, and the one I kept my horse at on Staten Island because those horses also don't get regular turn-out and get ridden on the roads.

Perhaps they should also ban keeping dogs and cats in NYC, as those animals also have to put up with living in an urban environment.

If they can outright ban or get rid of tiny corners of the horse industry, not due to allegations of fairly undeniable abuse like you see with the big lick Tennessee Walkers, for instance, but due to fuzzy ideas driven by animal rights yahoos about how horses "ought" to be kept, we are all so screwed.
 
I have been to New York and saw the horses. Although physically they don't look bad, I know they are worked hard all day. Many of them have been hit by traffic and they are stables in skyscraper buildings. I don't think horses should be kept in this environment, they have no opportunity to be just horses! If they were kept out in field and allowed to chill I would maybe have a different view...
 
They should go to Bulgaria and see the working tourist horses there if they want to see what cruelty looks like. Poor things struggle to stand and are working nearly 24hours a day with no rider weight restrictions in that heat with no access to water in case it loses the owner business - horses drinking = not available for tourism.
 
They are given five weeks of vacation chilling in a field every year. My horse doesn't get that!

It is very common on the East Coast, not just in New York City, for barns to have no or very limited turnout.
 
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I know other places are worse obviously, there always is, but I still don't think it should mean this is acceptable. 5 weeks holiday is better than nothing but I still feel for them and I don't think a city such as NY is ideal living situation for a horse. Nor do I agree with poor working conditions of horses all over the world but I don't believe just because one situation is worse than they other that they should be ignored.
 
ktj1891 said:
I know other places are worse obviously, there always is, but I still don't think it should mean this is acceptable. 5 weeks holiday is better than nothing but I still feel for them and I don't think a city such as NY is ideal living situation for a horse. Nor do I agree with poor working conditions of horses all over the world but I don't believe just because one situation is worse than they other that they should be ignored.
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Did you read the article on the check of the horses and barn by a past president of American Association of Equine Practitioners, an equine surgeon and an equine vet that someone on this thread gave you a link for?

Here it is again if you missed it http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...i-inspected-were-healthy-and-content?smid=fb-

Horses have been working for hundreds of years, there was a time when humans relied solely on them and the entire world shouldn't be completely modernised and a stop put to this. I think it's lovely to still see a horse and carriage in the cities, and the fact that most city people have never even seen a horse up close speaks for itself really! If the animals are well cared for I don't see a problem.
 
p87 said:
Did you read the article on the check of the horses and barn by a past president of American Association of Equine Practitioners, an equine surgeon and an equine vet that someone on this thread gave you a link for?

Here it is again if you missed it http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...i-inspected-were-healthy-and-content?smid=fb-

Horses have been working for hundreds of years, there was a time when humans relied solely on them and the entire world shouldn't be completely modernised and a stop put to this. I think it's lovely to still see a horse and carriage in the cities, and the fact that most city people have never even seen a horse up close speaks for itself really! If the animals are well cared for I don't see a problem.
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I did and I said intially they look physically well I just dont like they are worked all day and then just stabled. In older times, NY wouldn't have been as built up as it is now and as busy with traffic and although I don't know for sure I suspect there may have been some more opportunity for turnout. I'm not under false pretences that anywhere around the world is any better or things are gunna change. Its just my personal opinion that I dont agree with it.
 
ktj1891 said:
I did and I said intially they look physically well I just dont like they are worked all day and then just stabled.
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How is that any difference to a lot of kept horses today? Not everyone gives their horses turnout, especially competition riders, whose horses are worked and then stabled again.
 
p87 said:
Horses have been working for hundreds of years, there was a time when humans relied solely on them and the entire world shouldn't be completely modernised and a stop put to this. I think it's lovely to still see a horse and carriage in the cities, and the fact that most city people have never even seen a horse up close speaks for itself really! If the animals are well cared for I don't see a problem.
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This. I'd be sad to see the last of or working horses leave our cities. It would be a break with thousands of years of history and so many people are trapped in cities with very little idea of the countryside, these little glimpses of another way of life enrich us

ktj1891 said:
In older times, NY wouldn't have been as built up as it is now and as busy with traffic and although I don't know for sure I suspect there may have been some more opportunity for turnout.
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I don't know a whole load about the history of New York, but I know a fair bit about London's horse history and I can't imagine they are that dissimilar. London was louder during much of its pre combustion engine history than it is now and traffic was more congested in the early 19th century when the ships were unloaded just east of London bridge. Much of NY was built in the horse drawn era, the construction must have been totally chaotic.

I think your idea that the was more opportunity for turn out may be overly sanguine; the horses pulling the London omnibuses certainly never got turned out and 9 out of 10 died in harness.
 
p87 said:
How is that any difference to a lot of kept horses today? Not everyone gives their horses turnout, especially competition riders, whose horses are worked and then stabled again.
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To be fair I don't think its ideal, but life is not ideal. I think the benefits the NY horses bring is big enough that we can overlook the lack of turn out.

As someone who is into both democracy and logical thought I hate the sliminess and the 'fluffiness' of the campaign, if I was a New Yorker I'd be steaming.

ETS the horses get out and have a decent amount of excersise, which I think is really important with stabled horses.
 
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Yeah, for the first time ever I was kind of pi$$ed off by Jon Stewart, who usually has no qualms about giving politicians a hard time. He could have nailed DeBlasio's balls to the wall on his links with NYCLASS, his developer friend, and the fuzzy, spurious logic behind the eradication of the carriages. But he didn't.

As an aside, I doubt working horses of the 19th Century cities, New York, London, wherever, got turn-out. I don't think it even occurred to people in the same way that it occurs to us with our enlightened, modern sensibilities that turn-out and the opportunity to "be a horse" is important.
 
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Caol Ila said:
Yeah, for the first time ever I was kind of pi$$ed off by Jon Stewart, who usually has no qualms about giving politicians a hard time. He could have nailed DeBlasio's balls to the wall on his links with NYCLASS, his developer friend, and the fuzzy, spurious logic behind the eradication of the carriages. But he didn't.

As an aside, I doubt working horses of the 19th Century cities, New York, London, wherever, got turn-out. I don't think it even occurred to people in the same way that it occurs to us with out enlightened, modern sensibilities that turn-out and the opportunity to "be a horse" is important.
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I think Jon Stewart (who I agree is usually badass) missing an opportunity like that tells us a lot about how disconnected society has become from animals.

I've read some late 19th century stuff that says some horses got holidays. I reckon this being remarked on suggests it happened in a small minority of cases. If I'd been a worker with no rights I'd have been pretty annoyed the horses got a better deal than I did.
 
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undergroundoli said:
I think Jon Stewart (who I agree is usually badass) missing an opportunity like that tells us a lot about how disconnected society has become from animals.

I've read some late 19th century stuff that says some horses got holidays. I reckon this being remarked on suggests it happened in a small minority of cases. If I'd been a worker with no rights I'd have been pretty annoyed the horses got a better deal than I did.
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Aye, I agree. What the mayor said on the show about horses living free and happy lives sounds like a great soundbite (he's a politician after all) if you don't know a damned thing about horses or the industry or the overflowing rescues and the huge amount of unwanted horses going to Canada or Mexico for slaughter. It even got a cheer from Jon's audience. I almost threw something at my laptop screen. I think people who aren't around working animals just have no idea.

19th century horses owned by the sufficiently wealthy may have gotten a vacation. I doubt the poor cartman's dray horse did.
 
Maybe I am just far to sentimental about horses and how I think they should live. However, surely we should be thinking and supporting a more benefical and safe standard to how working horses live and are treated rather than saying well this is how they have always been worked or kept. I don't think its right to follow in previous footsteps of how working horses are kept or treated surely its better to keep the horses working to propose some better standards which from OP the article is suggesting horses are 'slaves' and city is not ideal from them!
 
The NYC carriage horses are already well regulated and under closer veterinary supervision than your horse or my horse. They live in air conditioned stables. When my horse lived in New York City, she didn't have an air conditioned stable. Quick, someone call the ASPCA!

The ones I saw looked content enough in their jobs. More content than horses I know who spend most of the day standing in a stable and are never ridden or worked. They are draft animals. They have been bred for generations doing the job they do. If you want to be sentimental, think of what happens to those animals if the carriages are banned. NY state rescues have already said they don't want them, as they are full up. The NYCLASS people have stated that the horses will be adopted out with the stipulation that they must be allowed to graze free and happy and never be ridden or pull a cart again. Aye, right. Finding homes for 200+ draft horses isn't straightforward. Do you want a precedent to be set for not only an industry to be banned based on fuzzy, debatable notions of welfare, but also for a precedent to be set dictating what you can do with a horse after you buy/sell/adopt it?

DeBlasio's not getting rid of the racetracks. He's not getting rid of the NYPD's mounted division, either. Like I said initially, this is pure political croneyism under a veneer of vague animal rights discourse.
 
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Caol Ila said:
The NYC carriage horses are already well regulated and under closer veterinary supervision than your horse or my horse. They live in air conditioned stables. When my horse lived in New York City, she didn't have an air conditioned stable. Quick, someone call the ASPCA!

The ones I saw looked content enough in their jobs. More content than horses I know who spend most of the day standing in a stable and are never ridden or worked. They are draft animals. They have been bred for generations doing the job they do. If you want to be sentimental, think of what happens to those animals if the carriages are banned. NY state rescues have already said they don't want them, as they are full up. The NYCLASS people have stated that the horses will be adopted out with the stipulation that they must be allowed to graze free and happy and never be ridden or pull a cart again. Aye, right. Finding homes for 200+ draft horses isn't straightforward. Do you want a precedent to be set for not only an industry to be banned based on fuzzy, debatable notions of welfare, but also for a precedent to be set dictating what you can do with a horse after you buy/sell/adopt it?

DeBlasio's not getting rid of the racetracks. He's not getting rid of the NYPD's mounted division, either.
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I don't know the situation anywhere as in depth as you or the political issues surrounding it. I know they are many worse situations around the world with working horses and my only issue was the turnout and being stabled majority of the year as well as traffic issues.

When I was there I saw draft types but also many TB looking types pulling big carriages and they generally looked knackered. I hope the horses welfare isnt compromised whatever the outcome.
 
It seems to me it all depends on the horse. Some will be fine with the lifestyle, some will not.

Do the NYCLASS people say how they are going to get the horses so they can be adopted? Surly they belong to the drivers, who can sell them to whomsoever they choose? although not for meat because IIRC horse slaughter is temporarily banned in the states?
 
p87 said:
How is that any difference to a lot of kept horses today? Not everyone gives their horses turnout, especially competition riders, whose horses are worked and then stabled again.
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Well, I for one don't agree with horses being kept like this, unless it's the odd individual who doesn't like turnout and is a big wimp if even one drop of rain falls.

I am not saying they are a welfare case (although I don't like the idea of them having to stand in so much traffic), but I usually feel sorry for tourist carriage horses, no matter where in the world they are! It just doesn't look a particularly fun job.
 
undergroundoli said:
It seems to me it all depends on the horse. Some will be fine with the lifestyle, some will not.

Do the NYCLASS people say how they are going to get the horses so they can be adopted? Surly they belong to the drivers, who can sell them to whomsoever they choose? although not for meat because IIRC horse slaughter is temporarily banned in the states?
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This is what they say, quoted directly from their website:

"What will happen to the carriage horses when the carriage industry is banned?
A: NYCLASS, in partnership with numerous animal protection organizations such as ASPCA, HSUS, Seraphim12, GFAS and CAS will be retiring the horses to loving forever homes -- private farms, sanctuaries and rescues. The legislation we support, Intro 86A, will require the drivers to turn their horse over to an approved retirement home."

This is one of the reasons why this whole campaign is CRAZY (and possibly, at the end of the day, not legal, which is why I suggested in one of my earlier posts that if DeBlasio gets this by the City Council, welcome to lawsuit city). It will require the drivers to give up their own horses, handing their otherwise healthy working horses to an "approved" retirement home. Those organisations listed -- most have the view that no horse, ever, should be ridden or worked. Most of the drivers own their horses, same as you or I own our horses. You want to set that precedent? This is just a bad, bad direction to go, for all horse people.
 
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