Cesar Milan - Love him or hate him?

Ooh fight !
tongue.gif
Have never seen Cesar but have got tickets to see him in March so you will have to wait until then for my opinion. However, I know experienced handlers who rate his methods, some dogs do need a very firm hand otherwise they would have a short life
frown.gif
, but you can't apply the same techniqus to every dog.
Flash12 what work do you do with your GSDs?
 
[ QUOTE ]
… The dominance theroy is now being argued against…

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with that for the following reasons: No we are not dogs but what we are is another predator, just as horses are comfortable in a herd of sheep, cattle, alpacas i.e. other grazers and essentially speak the same language, so to do predators and since you feed a dog you are automatically an important part of that dogs life and part of it’s pack, that’s why it will defend you and the den (your property), from my observations of dogs over a period of 40 years I have seen this from the smallest companion breed to the most powerful.


[ QUOTE ]
…I also have many years experience in working with my own dogs and as I work daily with many breeds of dogs including guarding breeds and others I can say I have plenty of experience! 25 years plus…

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough but you gave no indication and relied on indirectly and unspecfically quoting “research” rather than taking what you have learned and adding to it your personal experiences, you simply chose to preach at us rather than say why you believed it was true or even what it was specifically that you believed made it true. I and others asked for your examples of your experience and now you have given it!

[ QUOTE ]
…He is now a lovely calm and well trained dog. I didnt get him there by pinning him down, doing alpha rolls or giving him electric shocks. …

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking at this again do you not think that you are being disrespectful to those of us that do not share your views?


[ QUOTE ]
…I dislike people making judgements on me and my experience when you have no idea about it… I am sure I have far more experience of dogs than many people on here…

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry but you told us all to go and google, you did not mention a direct quote of anyone specific and you certainly did not allude to any personal experiences how would you interpret that?? To me it did not come across that you had a view but that your tutors did. Good for you perhaps you would now like to share those experiences.

[ QUOTE ]
…I am not the only person who dislikes Cesar milans method by a long way. …

[/ QUOTE ]

No one said you were.

[ QUOTE ]
…It seems if you dont agree with people on here you are wrong. …

[/ QUOTE ]



We are all adults on here so I suggest you re-read you initial post on the subject objectively and you should see why you got a response like you did. Prior to that those of us in the Cesar camp had said why we liked his methods, even if one or two reasons were that he was eye candy!

You started not by saying why you disagreed with his psychology and by joining in on unsubstantiated gossip, then you said he stresses the dogs out? We answered you with why we disagreed, so I guess that if you don’t like reasoned debate you don’t have to participate, which would be a shame since as you point out we all have a different viewpoint.

MurphysMinder put that wooden spoon down now!!!!!
 
Don't do tea or coffee just a bottle of vodka with the top off!!! Actually have some lovely damson Vod thats been brewing, fat chance of it lasting till Xmas!!!

Just putting my interpretation forward!!!

As you know everyone on here is sick of me banging on about wheat and other carbs in dog food but I don't give up!!!!
 
i think il skip the tea and just have some baileys in coffee instead...thanks
tongue.gif


I do like a good debate i just hope this doesnt turn nasty.

Remember guys the written word doesnt always come across very well so please ask people to clarify things instead of getting angry at them...it should keep the debate more civil than a lot of the posts you see on HHO.
smirk.gif

I no i for one would like AAD to stay the nice forum in HHO
tongue.gif


Oh and this is a really hot topic anyway..i no people who hate cesar and his methods as well as people who love him,
Personally think he has a role to fill on TV,and i like the fact that he points out that its often the humans that need training not just the dogs!! but id worry about people trying to copy some of his techniques...good way to get badly hurt.
clearly theres a lot of different methods out there so we are all going to have different view. tis' life

Flash12 AAD is in general a friendly forum.Just try a less emotive subject and you'll see
smirk.gif


people as just disagreeing with you try not to take it to heart.Chances are its just your words there disagreeing with,and of course your opinion in the debate but that's why its a debate,its not you as a person!
 
[ QUOTE ]
id worry about people trying to copy some of his techniques.



[/ QUOTE ]

Well said - especially this bit^^

I think of him as being like a really amazing professional rider using a double bridle. OK in their hands? Absolutely. But stick a novice on their first lesson on board and you'll be picking horse's teeth out of the woodwork for weeks.

I think you should do whatever suits your animal best, within your own capabilities.

Flash, we are really nice on here, honest
smile.gif
 
Yup. except instead of the poor horse being in trouble,with dogs you'll be dealing with bite damage to peoples limbs if you try some of them techniques.Even Cesar gets bitten sometimes
crazy.gif


In our animal behaviour modules,we were advised not to give any information to a client regarding an aggresive animal, bar the euthanasia option and the advise to seek profesional help.We werent even given any advise on it to learn as that's not the vets role apparently.

Because its very dangerous advise to give out,not just because you can get sued but also because if your wrong or if your misunderstood or misinterpreted then clients or children or some poor bystander could be badly hurt.
frown.gif


And yet people can just look at Cesar and think ah ya, il try that to show my dog who's boss....that'll solve the problem.
crazy.gif


Its good to see that problems can be fixed and its good that awareness about dog behaviour is being raised,even if his methods dont appeal,he is a good figure for raising awareness ...
and i love his training the owners,
grin.gif


but i have serious doubts about some of his methods not because they dont work, but because of the dangerous situation they can put the handler in and the capacity for people to try this at home in spite of all the warnings...
 
wink.gif
I must say that I begin to doubt whether all the women on her are ladies or not, since some of you say you think he's quite hot, yet you don't know his name... I have waited for somebody else to say it but can't resist any longer, it is not Milan, it is Millán with two L's.



Anyhow, you say we don't know how experienced or inexperienced you are Flash12 and that is true but that is the same for all of us. If you feel you're misunderstood then you can always try and explain yourself again or leave it as it is.


By the way, I don't have working dogs, currently I have 3 Finnish Lapphunds ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Lapphund ) but I certainly don't believe they're overindulged pets and I certainly doesn't get all my ideas from tv programs.

sweed_puppi_by_myjka55.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
id worry about people trying to copy some of his techniques.

[/ QUOTE ]


Well there in lies a tale despite all the warnings and caveats on the program, some woman approached me in the village a while ago whilst psycho was going off one one as I had left him in the car, she said have you seen that program, you need to pinch him on the neck, smirking I went up to the car and held the door handle, that brings out one of his really nasty personalities! and said "help yourself" She didn't linger for very long at all!!!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
id worry about people trying to copy some of his techniques.

[/ QUOTE ]


Well there in lies a tale despite all the warnings and caveats on the program, some woman approached me in the village a while ago whilst psycho was going off one one as I had left him in the car, she said have you seen that program, you need to pinch him on the neck, smirking I went up to the car and held the door handle, that brings out one of his really nasty personalities! and said "help yourself" She didn't linger for very long at all!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

a080.gif


a040.gif
at you saying "help yourself".
 
Need picture of the Laphunds, only seen one or two over here and would like a closer look at the original Original!!! Plus it would be nice to see the boy's northern hemisphere cousin the Artic Heeler!
 
I don't take many photos myself and haven't got any digital camera so I can only show other peoples dogs.


As I understand it, the original Sami dog looked more like a cross between todays Finnish Lapphund and the Lapponian Herder. Then one half of the breed developed into a more fluffier type and the other half developed into a type with shorter fur.
Actually there is three dog breeds out of the Sami dogs.
Finnish Lapphund comes from Finnish Sami peoples dogs and so does the Lapponian Herder (= Arctic Heeler?).
Swedish Lapphund comes from Swedish Sami peoples dogs and they almost look like Finnish Lapphunds, they are a little less fluffy and is almost only black. (In fact the reason I chose Finnish Lapphund and not Swedish is that I like that they allow all colours in the Finnish one.)


There is some nice photos of Lapponian Herder here Lapponian Herder

If you want to see some Finnish Lapphunds http://hem.bredband.net/girongardens/hundar.htm (Teddy is the father of my two young dogs) , or more pictures Finnish Lapphund



Swedish Lapphunds mainly (the white dog in photo 12 is something else)
 
Wow a world apart but a similar job in a harsh climate one hot one cold and look at the two breeds Lapponian left and Australian Kelpie (sheep herder) right.

NorthSouth-1.jpg


This is my Psycho (Blue) he is a bit fine for a cattle dog, more like a bitch though the litter brother is a big winner showing (he has not brilliant angulation behind but don’t tell him!) But he is not dissimilar either!!!

IMG_0359.jpg


I must admit I prefer the Finnish variety of Lapphunds too, I saw some in harness in the pictures are they used as sleddogs over there? Have not seen any here in harness.

The Lapphunds like my cattle dogs and the kelpies look a bit heavier in bone and stature than the Lapponian? Very interesting how purpose brings the breeds together though!!

What are the breeds like in trainability and attitude, have found the cattle dogs are obedient but can challenge and have strong characters with a lot of intelligence. They are very like spitz breeds they are not big on strange or stupid humans, and totally ignore silly dogs, they don’t like their feet handled and whilst they love to be near you they are not big on cuddles except when they want them, they are really tough and play very hard with an ajenda and are always jostling for position!!!

Oops I did it again hijacked the thread - But Cesar mate if you are still reading Bluey is waitin for ya !!
 
I had a kelpie x heeler in Australia and bought her back with me, she looked very much like a Lapponian. Beautiful!
 
[ QUOTE ]
;) I must say that I begin to doubt whether all the women on her are ladies or not, since some of you say you think he's quite hot, yet you don't know his name... I have waited for somebody else to say it but can't resist any longer, it is not Milan, it is Millán with two L's.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh believe me I couldn't give 2 hoots if he as 1 2 or 3 L's in his name, thats not what I'm interested in unless it helps him roll his tongue when he pronounces it
wink.gif
 
They have never really been used as sled dogs by the Sami people as far as I know, in the beginning maybe they were used to guard and hunt but mainly they have been used as herding dogs, though there has not been any demands on doing it with big precision as f.ex. Border Collies, without all their jobs have been done more freely.


Finnish Lapphunds likes to work with people and learning the basics like sit is no problem but they are not born with a high desire to work with people and if you want things done with precision, it can be difficult to make them get all the details the way you want them. So if you want them to learn that sit equals sit exactly on the millimetre close by your side, then you have to make them want to learn to do it with such precision.

They think that once they are 1 or 2 metres away, they are close to me. So if I hide behind a tree, my three dogs can sit on the other side of the tree and wait for what we will do next, now that they've found me. Only problem is that since I'm alone on my side of the tree, I might not know that I've been found...

You do need to train them on being squeezed and felt at, many Lapphunds backs away when the judge comes up to them in the show ring and I've seen more than one having big problems with the judge wanting to look at their teeth.

Though being Spitzes they rarely bark without reasons so unwanted barking is usually not a problem.

They are hardy on the outside but with soft inside, they're usually very sensitive for body language, they don't play tough with other dogs and rarely feel the need to prove their rank. Personally I think it makes sense, many of them walked around a little on their own when they weren't needed and if they then got into arguments with every other dog they met, with a cold and harsh climate most of the year, even minor wounds might lead to the dog not coming home again.
I suspect that if Cesar Millan only had Finnish Lapphunds to work with, he would believe he was on vacation.

o010.gif
grin.gif
 
For those who doesn't want to add to the site's visitor-count :

"CM kicks, chokes and subdues"Shadow".


http://c1.libsyn.com/media/729/05198_11_...6c82636f83d27e2 "

" CM almost strangles "Riley" to force him to comply.

CM is literally dragging a heavy St Bernard up a flight of stairs by a choke chain cutting into the most delicate and painful part of the poor dog's throat.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/dog-whisperer/3727/Photos#tab-Videos/06243_00 "


The quoted text comes from this site http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/ .

The first clip took "ages" to load for me too but I must say that if those two clips are the worst they've found, I don't quite understand why anybody is upset.
Okay maybe not wonderful and fluffy clips but first, I don't know what has taken place before the clip begins and honestly, if a dog jumped up and bit me like Shadow, I might very well use my legs to defend me. Although I theoretically can think of a few things to do in such a situation, I don't know if I in reality would have acted any different than Cesar Millan.
I don't know what they might have tried to make Riley walk up the staircase before but eventually I would simply drag them up. I would probably have preferred having a harness on the dog but I would not accept to have a dog that wouldn't walk up a staircase.

I don't know if I would call it the other side of the story, the clip with Riley seems to be from Millan's own site, so obviously he doesn't have a problem with letting the world see it.
 
As the videos made my laptop go spongo, I will have to say 'baa' and say that in principle, I will agree with FL.
If a dog isn't responding to other methods, then yes, as regards the stairs, I would calmly ask the dog to come with me, he would not get an option not to.
If the dog suffered no ill effects and now goes up the stairs, it was obviously not traumatised.

Again, I haven't seen the clip, but if a dog 'jumped up and bit me', rest assured, it would not be doing it again. It is not acceptable behaviour and yes, I would use my voice and physical presence to make the dog stop and I don't not what methods anyone else would use?

Also interested in what you did with your Sheps, Flash12?
I used to show but have come over to the dark side of working
tongue.gif
 
For those that were interested my dogs and I work in security.
I have also done agility and obedience with them.
I have also worked for a assistance dog charity. Have also worked in boarding kennels and rescue kennels over the years

I have seen worse clips than those shown on the website on tv. two stick in my mind one a chow cross who was hung by his lead until he was almost unconcious, when " the dog whisperer" said thats what I want a calm submissive state. He was submissive alright he couldnt breathe!
the other was a bulldog who was again hung by its lead until it was laying on its side gasping for breath.
This is, in my opinion wrong. You should also remember that the tv programes are edited and what you see is only a small part of what goes on.
A lot of people are too easily taken in by what they see on tv. I would never want my dogs handled in such a way.
The illusion collar is made to fit right at the top of the dogs neck so it will stop the dogs breathing if it pulls etc.
This again to me is wrong.
I am surprised that so many people think it is ok to handle dogs in this way.
However this is just my opinion and I will leave it at that.
 
I was briefly thinking of "Riley the reluctant" when I was out walking my dogs. There where a list of names with people supporting that site and I caught myself wondering what they would say if it wasn't a stair that he had refused to walk in, without let's say a vet clinic? Would they really say : Oh no, don't force him! If he doesn't want to walk into the vets you shouldn't be so cruel that you force him...

g040.gif
 
Have you any pictures, Flash12? Piccies of GSDs on here are always welcome in my book
smile.gif

Did you use any particular lines or breeding? I know a lot of the 'old' kennels are not so popular now with the influx of the East German/DDR, Czech, Dutch and Belgian lines coming in.

I don't really know enough about an illusion collar to know how it works but I have always been told that a pinch collar should sit high on the neck when being used as it can actually cause damage when sitting lower down.
Don't know if there are any similarities are not.

Flash12, do you use chokes/checks yourself? Not trying to start a ruck, just interested! All the people I know who train police/PPD/security/trials dogs do and I was just wondering, if you don't, what you do use.

I personally use different collars for different scenarios - my dog has a different collar for obedience, tracking, normal walks ect.
 
I agree with CC would be good to see pics of your Shepherds. I used to do agility with mine years ago, but nowadays I think you have to have a collie to get to the top
frown.gif
Did you do the agility show circuit, we might have met?
 
His Illusion collar is one of the things that I don't like about him (though I tend to forget its name) and I definitely agree about that "A lot of people are too easily taken in by what they see on tv." But since I don't know what the Chow cross and the Bulldog was doing before CM used the choke chain to that extent on them, I don't know what to think about it.

F.ex. I've met dogs that has gotten so used to pulling around with their owner while wearing various types of collars, that I presume they wouldn't react on only getting a little bit choked, since that is what they're used to.


Like CaveCanem I use different "outfits" depending on what we are doing.
 
[ QUOTE ]

F.ex. I've met dogs that has gotten so used to pulling around with their owner while wearing various types of collars, that I presume they wouldn't react on only getting a little bit choked, since that is what they're used to.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hear hear. I don't have a problem with choke chains, I have a problem with people using them too long, too thick, upside down, on the wrong part of the neck, with a completely inappropriate lead attached and allowing the dog to get to the end of it and strangle itself.

If all a dog knows is a tug of war, if all a dog knows is strain and has never been taught the difference between a tight line and a slack one, then how is it supposed to learn from it?!

I have seen dogs improve in minutes after owners have simply been shown what they were doing wrong.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top