Cesar Milan

CC that's interesting that you mention BAT, Sprocket was a demo dog on the first BAT seminar in the UK earlier this year and we use some of the techniques we learnt.
 
CAYLA said:
Person A is told that they need to be very firm and make the dog do as it is told, he doesn't need incentives, he should just DO it and RESPECT the owner and know his place because any other way is weak and wimpy.
The dog is not strong enough and breaks down and is asked to leave the class because it is not responding or progressing and the owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.

Person B is told that they must only ever use positive methods, never have to raise their voice or use a control collar - humane harnesses only - of any sort or say the word 'no' because any other way is cruel.
The dog is too strong for this and it is not responding or progressing, they are asked to leave the class.
The owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.


MY EXAMPLE OF QUOTING ^^^^LMAO^^^^^ WHAT CC SAID

And this narrow mindedness leaves the dog in limbo and the owner!
If one or both methods are needed, use them.
Click to expand...


this is really interesting actually- as Dex is similar- definately needs NO's, leave its etc, in the voice of doom, but give him a strong check on a chain and he turns round and lamps you for it.... middle ground for the sensitive chap, who if pushed to much will throw his weight around....
 
I will say that the whole pinning thing is useful for us.

Hubby is completely dog phobic and always has been, he accepts and loves our dogs but is totally chicken of any others.

I am primary carer of them. Hubby just tags along for walks sometimes and cuddles them when he gets home from work.

Having never been around dog, he just doesn't have any confidence or dog sense. However, Salem (who is a big, rambuncious, lunatic) simply adores hubby and gives him much respect.

When there have been occasions where Salem has been an ******* and pushed his luck, hubby has pinned him.

I've never found the need to do such a thing as my voice is strong and I'm not saying it has done any good, training wise, but it's given hubby a tool to use where he feels in control and that's improved his confidence.

Salem just thinks it's funny.....
neener_neener.gif
 
'Person A is told that they need to be very firm and make the dog do as it is told, he doesn't need incentives, he should just DO it and RESPECT the owner and know his place because any other way is weak and wimpy.
The dog is not strong enough and breaks down and is asked to leave the class because it is not responding or progressing and the owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.

Person B is told that they must only ever use positive methods, never have to raise their voice or use a control collar - humane harnesses only - of any sort or say the word 'no' because any other way is cruel.
The dog is too strong for this and it is not responding or progressing, they are asked to leave the class.
The owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.

Both of these stories are true.
Telling either of them they were wrong and stupid is wrong and stupid.
And there are a million other ways to do things.'


this is an excellent example CC

im a bit of a beginner at this dog owning never having had a dog in my life before up until 8 months ago and now suddenly find myself with a fear aggressive border collie im trying to cope with and am having to educate myself whilest finding a training method (and a trainer) to cope with her issues going forward.

CM does appeal to my common sense and since im not a 'fluffy bunny' kinda person im not going to start screaming 'abuse' at the slightest thing as long as a trainer is firm but fair , totally humane and his animals are happy.

sorry for the stupid question Im assuming here his 'alpha/pack leader dog psychology is considered sound by the mainstream?

id really not go round with my pockets full of dog food either so at the moment ive decided clicker training isnt for me but im really open minded.

i think one of the main things to come out of this thread for me is when the average dog owner tries to emulate the 'experts' on their own trouble usually follows!

However, there does seem some bitchiness towards CM which i dont think is fair.
there's no need to make up silly cartoons with ' you're an idiot' name calling just because you dont personally agree with someone.-no offence teaselmeg.

still be interested to hear more replies on CC's husky scenario too if any one wants to humor us...
 
I think the puffed out chest alpha leader stuff suits your dog,let us know;and ,still waiting for the husky replies.Think I would fold arms ,not stare ,turn sideways and pray.Be a whole lot more worried if it were a bull terrier type of dog though.
 
Lula, don't get me wrong, as mentioned, I clicker train, I am that person with pockets full of food and a clicker and three types of ball in my pocket - I learned the hard way with B, I want my dog to see me as the source of all good things, not to fixate on other dogs or vehicles.
But at the same time he can be bratty and I do not put up with that.

EK, we all know Malis are excellent with other dogs, it's bad people they like munching on :p :p :p
 
If there is one thing I have learned about animals it is that there is not one way to train them!

I have been lucky to have been born with an instinctive feel, understanding, call it what you will, with animals. When there is a problem I will first try to see the reason as to why this has happened and then I will set about meeting it head on.
One thing I do agree with CM and that is to conquer a fear it has to met head on.

I have never tried clicker training, there is one main reason for this and it is a simple one - I would never find the rudy clicker in any of my pockets!

What works for some might not work for others.

For me the definition of a great trainer is one who has no set way but is willing to be versatile according to how an animal reacts.
 
As regards the clicker I stubbornly refused to use one for years but was suggested to use one on Fred my last Dobe, he would come at you if you checked him and was a godsend for him. The timing is important and your ability to learn body language is vital but I am a convert. I use it on all my dogs and it has been a very useful tool, but you would be daft having only one tool in your tool box.
 
CaveCanem said:
Lula, don't get me wrong, as mentioned, I clicker train, I am that person with pockets full of food and a clicker and three types of ball in my pocket - I learned the hard way with B, I want my dog to see me as the source of all good things, not to fixate on other dogs or vehicles.
But at the same time he can be bratty and I do not put up with that.

EK, we all know Malis are excellent with other dogs, it's bad people they like munching on :p :p :p
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Precisely why our Kevin is here CC,my sort of dog,a high wired very active GSD.:D
 
CAYLA said:
Person A is told that they need to be very firm and make the dog do as it is told, he doesn't need incentives, he should just DO it and RESPECT the owner and know his place because any other way is weak and wimpy.
The dog is not strong enough and breaks down and is asked to leave the class because it is not responding or progressing and the owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.

Person B is told that they must only ever use positive methods, never have to raise their voice or use a control collar - humane harnesses only - of any sort or say the word 'no' because any other way is cruel.
The dog is too strong for this and it is not responding or progressing, they are asked to leave the class.
The owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.


MY EXAMPLE OF QUOTING ^^^^LMAO^^^^^ WHAT CC SAID

And this narrow mindedness leaves the dog in limbo and the owner!
If one or both methods are needed, use them.
Click to expand...

Well said.
The carrot Vs stick debate is as old as sin,and the truth is you need both for most dogs and noting ever replaces spending some time getting to know the "person" you are dealing with.
Methods will need to vary depending on the dog in front of you,anyone who suggests a one method fits all approach is insane quite frankly as ALL methods will need to be adapted to suit the animal.


As for husky X question, I would do whatever I felt would keep me safe TBH.
I would never advocate hurting a dog (or anything else) to educate or train,but if you are in danger because of it's actions do what needs to be done.
 
EAST KENT said:
I think the puffed out chest alpha leader stuff suits your dog,let us know;and ,still waiting for the husky replies.Think I would fold arms ,not stare ,turn sideways and pray.Be a whole lot more worried if it were a bull terrier type of dog though.
Click to expand...

There are dogs that need this sort of training.

My cousin bought a GSD pup.
At the time I had two older GSD bitches and a GSD dog. We also had two other dogs, mostly on the older side of life. When the pup, Hannah came to our house the older dogs never wanted to play with her and they would tell her so. My cousin and mother would shut them in the other room and Hannah would play with Gen, the dog. Then when he had enough and told the pup off, he too would be shut away.
I warned all that it was wrong but they wouldn't listen. None would have hurt the pup just put her in her place.
This all resulted in Hannah, when out, running up to other dogs wanting to play and when they said, "No" she would just pitch in.
Cousin and dog were thrown out of several training classes. They had three different trainers work privately with them - this resulted in a very on the lead or on her own, obedient dog but the moment she saw another dog she would pitch straight in.

Cousin was going to give her to the RAF but I offered to take her on for a month. I took her, leashed, a mongrel I had staying and Gen, down to the beach. Gen would go into the sea snapping at the waves. As there was no one about I let Hannah off the lead keeping the other bitch to heel.
Hannah ran into the sea and pitched straight into Gem who swallowed a lot of water. I had to wade in and drag both dogs out. Hannah was just looking at both dogs ready to pitch in as soon as I ket her go.
I had had enough and lifted her by her collar and proceeded to whack her with the leash, down her ribs. She never felt a thing and continued to look for the others. I hit her until she did feel it and had decided to give her six once she did feel it.
Next thing was someone walking along the sea front had come up behind me and grabbed my arm, I let go of Hannah and next thing I knew she and Gen were standing side by side ready to go for the man.

That was it. I kept her for the month. I never had to raise a finger to her again. WHen out, and I took her where I knew there would be a lot of dogs, if she showed the slightest sign of aggression I would call her back and just growl at her and she was fine. She would periodically test the boundaries but never had another fight, with me or my cousin.

That bitch was never my cousin's dog - she was mine. Given the chance Hannah would always want to go with me. I was so tough on her but she had respect for it all.

I do not like to use hitting as a means of training but I am not frightened to if it is absolutely necessary.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
I had had enough and lifted her by her collar and proceeded to whack her with the leash, down her ribs. She never felt a thing and continued to look for the others. I hit her until she did feel it and had decided to give her six once she did feel it.
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I'm stunned, and not in a good way. I simply cannot understand how you would not only admit to such behaviour on a public forum, but actually seem to be proud of it?

There is a world of difference between a short, sharp correction (which is mainly 'shock' factor or breaking focus, such as a quick check on a chain) and repeatedly belting your dog's rib cage. To me, hauling a dog by a collar and belting it in such a way "until it feels it" suggests lost temper. Deciding to then "give it six" suggests pure spite. It's not the behaviour I would expect of somebody who states they were "born with an instinctive feel, understanding... of animals".

You state that the dog in question was unsocialised and had no idea of the usual polite norms of dog interaction. Perhaps you could have addressed this before you let her off the lead on a beach whilst the other dog/s were playing in the surf? Maybe introduced her to one or two more "appropriate" dogs that would have made their intentions to discontinue play perfectly clear without having a gob full of seawater?

Even as a child, I was taught that temper and animals simply don't mix. That includes a kind of ineffectual relationship between our way of showing anger and doling out punishment, and an animal's way of doing the same.

As for the man who grabbed your arm, was he trying to prevent you from beating the dog? Because that is exactly what I would have done. I also would not have been surprised if your dogs then reacted to me. Not because they are the loyal protectors we would all love them to be, but because they are great at picking up tension. Given the situation, I would imagine both were fairly aroused (physiologically) before the tension between you and this man.

Most people would step in (or at the least, rage over the internet :p) if they saw the local 'chav' repeatedly smacking his dog across the rib cage (he'd probably state that he was training or correcting his dog). Why is it alright for you to engage in such behaviour?
 
Spudlet said:
Pix, this is the person who suggested karate kicking a hard to catch pony in the head.

Nuff said.
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i saw that thread i think. was that the one where the pony was charging past/at the handler each time and said handler karate kicked it in the head each time from different sides?
i did think you'd have to be spectacularly brave to get close enough to half a tonne of galloping horse flesh to inflict such a kick! Cant think why it would work either but im digressing..

foxhunter eek :eek: that scenario prolly not the best thing to write on the internet!

i nearly lost my temper with my dog last weekend who out of the blue started a fight with something much littler than her and left it with a bleeding ear. I couldnt look at her for the rest of the day i was so angry at her letting me down. Didnt help though. I handled things wrong. Losing your temper is easy but something im beginining to realise doesnt help one jot.
 
I'd like to see you lift my dog by the collar and give it 6 of the best, whilst maintaining all your limbs- what an utterly daft thing to do, there is a HUGE difference between smacking a dog, and beating it.
 
Pix said:
I'm stunned, and not in a good way. I simply cannot understand how you would not only admit to such behaviour on a public forum, but actually seem to be proud of it?

I am not saying that I was proud of it at all.

There is a world of difference between a short, sharp correction (which is mainly 'shock' factor or breaking focus, such as a quick check on a chain) and repeatedly belting your dog's rib cage. To me, hauling a dog by a collar and belting it in such a way "until it feels it" suggests lost temper. Deciding to then "give it six" suggests pure spite. It's not the behaviour I would expect of somebody who states they were "born with an instinctive feel, understanding... of animals".

I absolutely agree with this, BUT, all else had been tried with her. When she was in that red zone a lead correction never did a thing to bring her attention back to you. The fact that I whacked her several times before she started to pay attention to me showed what a high zone she was in.

You state that the dog in question was unsocialised and had no idea of the usual polite norms of dog interaction. Perhaps you could have addressed this before you let her off the lead on a beach whilst the other dog/s were playing in the surf? Maybe introduced her to one or two more "appropriate" dogs that would have made their intentions to discontinue play perfectly clear without having a gob full of seawater?

The reason I let her off the lead with Gen already loose was that she had always interacted well with him prior.

Even as a child, I was taught that temper and animals simply don't mix. That includes a kind of ineffectual relationship between our way of showing anger and doling out punishment, and an animal's way of doing the same.

Again agreed, I have not lost my temper with any animal - been frustrated, yes, but never 'lost it' The last time I saw red was when I was 15 and a boy deliberately ran over a cat that was sitting on the pavement, even then I knew exactly what I was doing.

As for the man who grabbed your arm, was he trying to prevent you from beating the dog? Because that is exactly what I would have done. I also would not have been surprised if your dogs then reacted to me. Not because they are the loyal protectors we would all love them to be, but because they are great at picking up tension. Given the situation, I would imagine both were fairly aroused (physiologically) before the tension between you and this man.

Most people would step in (or at the least, rage over the internet :p) if they saw the local 'chav' repeatedly smacking his dog across the rib cage (he'd probably state that he was training or correcting his dog). Why is it alright for you to engage in such behaviour?
Click to expand...

I would intervene too. When I was hitting her it was going flat along her ribs, it was not knocking the breath out of her lungs and I doubt very much if she had the slightest bruise on her. As said, it was an extreme circumstance, and I am not proud of it. Just stating that in this instance, and I knew the bitch well, it did make her realise that there was a consequence for her behaviour.
As for the protection, Gen would have laid down his life for me. He was very (over) protective of me. One time when I fell from a horse and was concussed, he would not allow any of the medics to get near me.






Spudlet said:
Pix, this is the person who suggested karate kicking a hard to catch pony in the head.

Nuff said.
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I did not suggest that anyone karate kicks a horse in the head. I was saying that a friend of mine, who knew nothing about horses, did this when he tried to get his step daughters pony that had been chasing them all out of the field.
 
I once bred a lovely blue collie bitch, her hobby became rounding up my chooks ,and as they clumped together ,practically covering their eyes with their wings she would just go `round faster pulling out tail feathers as she went. After many corrections I got mad,and as the poster ,scruffed her ,held her up and larroped her with a hunting whip. She NEVER chased another chook,her herding and guarding instinct remained intact . My alternative was probably PTS,as it was she lived happily to fifteen.
Every dog is different and may require changes in training techniques.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
There are dogs that need this sort of training.

My cousin bought a GSD pup.
At the time I had two older GSD bitches and a GSD dog. We also had two other dogs, mostly on the older side of life. When the pup, Hannah came to our house the older dogs never wanted to play with her and they would tell her so. My cousin and mother would shut them in the other room and Hannah would play with Gen, the dog. Then when he had enough and told the pup off, he too would be shut away.
I warned all that it was wrong but they wouldn't listen. None would have hurt the pup just put her in her place.
This all resulted in Hannah, when out, running up to other dogs wanting to play and when they said, "No" she would just pitch in.
Cousin and dog were thrown out of several training classes. They had three different trainers work privately with them - this resulted in a very on the lead or on her own, obedient dog but the moment she saw another dog she would pitch straight in.

Cousin was going to give her to the RAF but I offered to take her on for a month. I took her, leashed, a mongrel I had staying and Gen, down to the beach. Gen would go into the sea snapping at the waves. As there was no one about I let Hannah off the lead keeping the other bitch to heel.
Hannah ran into the sea and pitched straight into Gem who swallowed a lot of water. I had to wade in and drag both dogs out. Hannah was just looking at both dogs ready to pitch in as soon as I ket her go.
I had had enough and lifted her by her collar and proceeded to whack her with the leash, down her ribs. She never felt a thing and continued to look for the others. I hit her until she did feel it and had decided to give her six once she did feel it.
Next thing was someone walking along the sea front had come up behind me and grabbed my arm, I let go of Hannah and next thing I knew she and Gen were standing side by side ready to go for the man.

That was it. I kept her for the month. I never had to raise a finger to her again. WHen out, and I took her where I knew there would be a lot of dogs, if she showed the slightest sign of aggression I would call her back and just growl at her and she was fine. She would periodically test the boundaries but never had another fight, with me or my cousin.

That bitch was never my cousin's dog - she was mine. Given the chance Hannah would always want to go with me. I was so tough on her but she had respect for it all.

I do not like to use hitting as a means of training but I am not frightened to if it is absolutely necessary.
Click to expand...



You do realise you could be in court for what you have admitted to doing?
People like you should not be allowed animals
 
EAST KENT said:
I once bred a lovely blue collie bitch, her hobby became rounding up my chooks ,and as they clumped together ,practically covering their eyes with their wings she would just go `round faster pulling out tail feathers as she went. After many corrections I got mad,and as the poster ,scruffed her ,held her up and larroped her with a hunting whip. She NEVER chased another chook,her herding and guarding instinct remained intact . My alternative was probably PTS,as it was she lived happily to fifteen.
Every dog is different and may require changes in training techniques.
Click to expand...

So, you too could be had up for cruelty!

Modern ideals seem to be taking humans further and further away from nature.

I am not and never have advocated beating any animal but will resort to returning violence with discomfort for the perpetrator if other methods do not work and it is warranted..

I cannot begin to count the number of hours I have spent working with nervous/traumatised/abused dogs and horses. A lot of these were animals that had been on their way to euthanasia but patience, understanding, experience and a variety of training methods turned them around. With all they needed boundaries and rules and when they over stepped corrections, some tougher than others but always fair.

Had I allowed Gen to recover his breath and then et the bitch loose the old dog would have really done her damage - that would have been 'natural'. He would have hurt her far more than ever I did.

Decry me all you like. I feel no guilt over what happened and will - when it is absolutely necessary, which is very rarely, do the same.
 
i read a lot of things on these forums concerning different people's methods of training and husbandry of their animals.
many things i read people doing that i dont personally agree with or know i wouldnt do myself but i try not to judge the things people may have done in the heat of the moment as i wasnt there to witness it and they probably have a lot more experience that me.

forgive me if im wrong foxhunter but i get the impression you are from the 'old school'? and while no way am i condoning the beating of a dog i know the previous generations were tougher with their animals than we perhaps are today.
Generally, the foxhunter's posts ive read i thought made a lot of common sense
 
lula said:
i read a lot of things on these forums concerning different people's methods of training and husbandry of their animals.
many things i read people doing that i dont personally agree with or know i wouldnt do myself but i try not to judge the things people may have done in the heat of the moment as i wasnt there to witness it and they probably have a lot more experience that me.

forgive me if im wrong foxhunter but i get the impression you are from the 'old school'? and while no way am i condoning the beating of a dog i know the previous generations were tougher with their animals than we perhaps are today.
Generally, the foxhunter's posts ive read i thought made a lot of common sense
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It makes perfect sense for that instance at the time and with that animal. And actually ,the reason we have such God awful kids around today is because a teacher can no longer impose any control. The world is harvesting it`s reward for going completely bonkers.
 
Im sorry, but I think its barbaric that people think its ok to beat dogs.
In this day and age with modern training methods there is no need to resort to this sort of thing.
Imo if you have to use such methods you have lost control.

I want my dogs to respect me, not live in fear of me.

There is a big differance between a well trained dog and one that is afraid.
Just find it very sad that there are people who still think its ok to do such things
 
lula said:
forgive me if im wrong foxhunter but i get the impression you are from the 'old school'? and while no way am i condoning the beating of a dog i know the previous generations were tougher with their animals than we perhaps are today.
Generally, the foxhunter's posts ive read i thought made a lot of common sense
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Yes, I am of the 'old school' brought up tough and taught manners and respect.
Thank you for recognising that I try and work using common sense! I deal with issues then and there, not waiting until 'your father comes home!'



EAST KENT said:
It makes perfect sense for that instance at the time and with that animal. And actually ,the reason we have such God awful kids around today is because a teacher can no longer impose any control. The world is harvesting it`s reward for going completely bonkers.
Click to expand...

I agree and I doubt it will turn around in my life time but sure as eggs are eggs, it will!

I do not advocate beating of any animal as part of training but there are circumstances when it is the only answer at that time.

Hannah, the GSD bitch was never afraid of me. She adored me to the point that when I was back home on holiday (I hadn't seen her for at least three years) she got a whiff of my scent from across the road and pulled my cousin to the gate I had gone through walking my dogs. She was doing the GSD scream she was so excited and darn near had me off my feet with her greeting. Would she have done that if there was an iota of fear for me in her?
The last time I saw her she was suffering from advanced Degenerative Myelopathy and was so sad. I begged my cousin to have her PTS and when she said she couldn't I was the one who had her euthanised - the last person to be scratching her head as she went to sleep forever. Had she not been sorted out that would have happened many years earlier.
 
Re fear vs respect - I had this conversation with my mother a while ago - my older dog used to be very 'into' cats and sheep. He has nailed our cats on a number of occasions.
As a result of that, the next time he looked at a cat, I was very hard on him. He now recalls from cats by voice, offlead.
I have told my mother to be very firm with him and she thinks she will a) hurt him or b) he will be scared.
a) She won't
b) He won't - and if he is? I would rather he was scared of me/my reaction than kill a cat. Sorry.

I do the vast, vast majority of my training in positive mode, I would not get anything out of my dogs otherwise, but with some things, I do not have time to mess about, if a dog of that size and strength decides he wants to nail a small furry, then I am going to go banzai. I realise that does not work with every dog (IE will associate prey animal with pain and will try to get in there first) it has worked for us.
 
Dogs ..and children..actually love to know their boundaries ,very occasionally it needs to take a tough stance on a vital issue..not only does it work,but the dog adores you for it.
Just look at all these daft questions on this forum..horses "planting"..Napping to me..off they toddle to get it`s back and teeth checked,and then spend even more on a horse shrink..Laudy save me! It is being a git,get the battle over and sorted...NOW.
The world is quite potty and filled with people without a clue on animal/child thinking,as a result there are revolting "why?/Shan`t" kids everywhere,bound for young offenders jails in the near future,dogs bound for Jesus,and horses either living as field ornaments or bound for a tin of Chum. All because everyone is too pathetic to make ground rules and mean it.:mad:
 
EAST KENT said:
Dogs ..and children..actually love to know their boundaries ,very occasionally it needs to take a tough stance on a vital issue..not only does it work,but the dog adores you for it.
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On that we agree- but I have never met a situation that needed more then A smack.
If it does not work stright away,it will not work at all.

Foxhunter49,why would you want to brag about beating a dog?
Honestly,if someone posted the situation as you described it no-one would be thinking the handler did a good job........

EAST KENT said:
The world is quite potty and filled with people without a clue on animal/child thinking,as a result there are revolting "why?/Shan`t" kids everywhere,bound for young offenders jails in the near future,dogs bound for Jesus,and horses either living as field ornaments or bound for a tin of Chum. All because everyone is too pathetic to make ground rules and mean it.:mad:
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Is it? Not seen more then the odd one or two of them around here, perhaps you should move ;)
 
Yunalesca said:
On that we agree- but I have never met a situation that needed more then A smack.
If it does not work stright away,it will not work at all.
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I'd agree with that. For me if a smack is needed it's delivered like any other type of correction. Short and swift (and usually accompanied by the "OMGyouhavenoideahowfaryouareoverthefrickenlinerightnow p***ed voice :p). But then I'd be aiming for more of a short shock than pain. I suppose we all draw the line at a different point.


Is it? Not seen more then the odd one or two of them around here, perhaps you should move ;)
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It's probably not reached us Yorkshire lot yet. Like indoor loos, caps that may not be flat, and supper options that don't include crumpets. :(:p
 
Yunalesca said:
On that we agree- but I have never met a situation that needed more then A smack.
If it does not work stright away,it will not work at all.

Foxhunter49,why would you want to brag about beating a dog?
Honestly,if someone posted the situation as you described it no-one would be thinking the handler did a good job........
Click to expand...


I was not bragging about beating a dog. I truthfully said that in extreme circumstance with certain situations it can be a last resort and work.

Majority of people do not come across extreme dogs and horses, some are made that way by mishandling and misunderstandings, some are born, not bad but exceedingly difficult and made worse by ignorance of the handler.
More and more people are wanting to take the softly, softly approach with excuse after excuse for misbehaviour, be it dog, horse or human, liking it to 'natural' training.
Sorry, but Mother Nature is not at all kind. If one dog, in a pack wants to take a higher position then it fights for it and fights to win. Ditto with horses and if any of you have ever seen or read 'Lord of the Flies' then it would make you think that children are much the same.

I can think of nothing I have done that was detrimental to any animal that I have had through my hands, as said many were supposedly beyond help yet, with the right handling they were turned around. Majority of this was done with extreme patience, setting the animal up to realise that no matter what it did I would still remain calm, determined and when the tantrum or whatever was over we would continue to do as I wanted as if nothing had happened.

Teaching/training anything is impossible unless the pupil wishes to learn and to please. This requires firm, fair leadership with fun thrown in. It also requires consistency which can be hard work and tedious at times but tight boundaries are widened and rules slightly relaxed as the training progresses.

No doubt most of you would be against an electric collar, but surely t is better to use and e collar to stop a dog chasing sheep than to have a farmer put a bullet through it?
Personally I am against e collars for anything but extreme circumstances and had they been around I would have used one on that particular dog because she was extreme.

If most of you are against giving an animal a punishment that it will feel just tell me how you would have dealt with the situation - or a horse coming at you meaning to really do you harm? Do you think that a clicker or verbal commands are going to stop it?
 
I don't think anyone here is completely against punishment, and personally I think the division between 'positive' methods and 'basically everything else' is highly unhelpful to everyone; as most have already said, there is no such thing as "100% positive training" or that each dog and situation/problem requires the same approach. I'm pretty sure that, if all else failed, one thing you and I could agree on is that all the clickers and hotdog slices in the world won't help some dogs or be useful in certain situations; the number of reasons why are as wide and varied as the number of dogs and potential situations out there.

I think the main part of your post that some (including myself) took issue with was "deciding to give her six once she did feel it". As I said in an earlier post, we all draw the line in a different place, but for me, using pain itself as the training aid, and continuing once the dog has stopped the undesirable behaviour is a little distasteful. To put a slightly anthropomorphic slant on it, it's the difference between having the back of your legs slapped as a child, and being repeatedly struck.

ETA - I once had to deal with a horse who had a particularly foul temperament. For reasons best known to the YO, the horror had to be mucked out while he was in his stable. Eventually everyone refused to go in there with him for any reason, never mind mucking out. He would stand calmly, watching you, and then a) launch at you, teeth bared b) swing his arse end at you and kick out or c) if he could, use his body weight to press you into the wall. When he launched himself at me I punched his nose, rather hard, in the same manner I'd seen the vet deal with him a few days before. Gave me time to sort his water out and hang his haynet while he sulked in the corner (poor beggar's eyes were probably watering, it's a sensitive place to meet a fist. On the other hand I'm pretty small, and if one strike keeps a 16:3hh heavy hunter off my back, that's what I'll do). On the one occasion that he had me pinned against the wall I brought my knee up into his ribs. It wasn't my proudest moment, but I'd rather he was short of breath for a few minutes that me getting my rib cage crushed. He didn't stop acting like the spawn of Satan after that, but I could work with him and he wouldn't try it on. So no, I'm not against punishment completely (or applying kneecaps in times of suffocation :D). It's just repeated strikes for the purpose of causing pain as a lesson that I'm not sure I grasp.

I have no problem with e-collars when used by, or under the supervision of, somebody who understands how to use them correctly. I agree completely that it's by far the better option than a bullet to the brain :)
 
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