chair seat

[Rexie]

I just wondered if the chair seat is ever a correct position for some disciplines? I see a lot of riders positioned like this and thought maybe I am missing something in terms of the requirements for hunting/cross country/jumping. I'm getting back into riding and only working in the school at the moment and to be honest I really don't remember much of how I used to jump

 

[sarahann1]

Not that I can think of no, it's the perfect position to end up behind the movement of your horse.

There are numerous reasons folk can end up in this position, poorly fitting saddles (for either horses or riders or both), poor instruction, self preservation on horses chucking themselves about are just a few.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't think when it'd be a normal thing to do.

 

[nato]

The only time I've found a chair seat to be useful is with a horse that is carting me across a Field/down the road that I can't stop, and I need to pretty much haul out of him to stop him

 

[alainax]

I wondered this too. I often see men in particular, usually showing or hunting, in that position. Professionals and winners, so must be viewed differently in some categories.

 

[Barnacle]

There's actually a bit of a debate about this. Some schools of thought hold this is the correct seat when still developing a proper classical seat. I.e. Tucking your seat bones under rather than sticking them out behind you is correct. But if your hips are not open - and most peoples' aren't - then you end up in a bit of a chair seat. Your seat itself is correct but your legs get pushed forward. I suspect few would actually call it a "chair seat" because of the negative connotations though. I would rather have a chair seat than give the appearance of a correct seat with my seat bones poking out as so many do... Also worth mentioning GP saddles tend to force women into this position because they are based on designs for men.

 

[twiggy2]

all the event saddles at work put you in a chair seat-I hate them and I ride everything in dressage saddles for hacking

 

[Auslander]

It's a very safe seat, for instnce, out hunting, when horses are travelling fast over lumpy ground and jumping big natural fences. The chances of a trip or a peck are higher, and having your legs stuck forward can mean the difference between staying on or getting ejected. I have no hesitation in sitting back and pushing my legs forward in an emergency situation - it's saved me a fair few times.
The clssic "riding school" chair seat, adopted by novice riders is a little different form the hunting seat, in that it is usully caused by a combination of rubbish saddle, and lack of rider strength. The generation of hunting folk who ride this way are generally balanced and strong, and should ave no trouble adopting and maintaining a correct position, if they wanted to!

 

[marmalade76]

Not that I can think of no, it's the perfect position to end up behind the movement of your horse.

There are numerous reasons folk can end up in this position, poorly fitting saddles (for either horses or riders or both), poor instruction, self preservation on horses chucking themselves about are just a few.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't think when it'd be a normal thing to do.

Have you ever hunted, ridden cross country or hacked on undulating ground? Ridden any strong, keen horses, something that's a bit sharp and might whip round? In some situations being a slightly behind the movement is the safest place to be.

 

[EQUIDAE]

Also known as the defensive seat. I'd rather be slightly behind the movement and stay on than be tipped over the shoulder

 

[[59668]]

Have you ever hunted, ridden cross country or hacked on undulating ground? Ridden any strong, keen horses, something that's a bit sharp and might whip round? In some situations being a slightly behind the movement is the safest place to be.

This exactly!

 

[sarahann1]

Have you ever hunted, ridden cross country or hacked on undulating ground? Ridden any strong, keen horses, something that's a bit sharp and might whip round? In some situations being a slightly behind the movement is the safest place to be.

As I said "self preservation" and "maybe I'm wrong".....

 

[smja]

A chair seat is something to be adopted when the situation is appropriate - scenarios others have mentioned e.g. hunting, where there may be an unexpected drop on the landing side of a big hedge - for self-preservation.

It's not something to aim for whilst riding a calm, obedient horse in a school, even for jumping.

 

[Rexie]

Thanks for all your replies. Makes sense to me now.

 

[marmalade76]

You also said

.... but I can't think when it'd be a normal thing to do.

 

[sarahann1]

You also said

Yup, and I genuinely couldn't think of any reason at the time, and now I've found out it's far more common than I thought

 

[Tiddlypom]

The top riders can adopt a defensive position without apparently hampering the horse in any way.

Lucinda Green, as mentioned above, is renowned for her secure and beautifully balanced position over jumps.

Some top showing riders sit with their lower leg rammed forward, even at halt. Can't for the life of me square that with how easily their horses go, but then I'm a humble amateur, so what do I know.

The true chair seat is IMHO a ghastly thing, with an unbalanced rider bashing down in the saddle, with lower leg pivoting back and forth, and hanging onto the reins.

 

[Rexie]

The number of different riding styles which sometimes seem to be in conflict with each other makes it very confusing!

 

[ecb89]

The number of different riding styles which sometimes seem to be in conflict with each other makes it very confusing!

Can anyone explain to me how Ben Maher stays on with his legs going back?

 

[alainax]

Some random pics that are on google images - I wondered about, and would be fab if some experts can shed some light!

I think this combination look fantastic, and clearly know what they are doing! Even though he is seated further back ( which some may call the chair seat) his centre of gravity is still in line. Is this sort of position what is sought after for men showing? I ask as the women seem to have a different position.

There definitely seems to be a "thing" about sitting further back, which always has me curious. (all clearly successful and well known in their field, so obviously know what they are doing!)

 

[Rexie]

I just don't get it really...perhaps it doesn't matter so much in some circumstances that you are placing more weight on the horses back. I can understand the hunting/downhill scenarios. But surely when you are just at a halt it would be kinder to distribute weight more evenly. Also doesn't the way you sit affect your balance?

 

[alainax]

I just don't get it really...perhaps it doesn't matter so much in some circumstances that you are placing more weight on the horses back. I can understand the hunting/downhill scenarios. But surely when you are just at a halt it would be kinder to distribute weight more evenly. Also doesn't the way you sit affect your balance?

I dont either... just posting some pics hoping someone can explain I try to practice a more classical dressage type seat myself.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Alainax, you're braver than me in actually posting pics of top show riders apparently adopting the chair seat, but your pics show exactly what I was getting at..

Taken from the Balanced Horse website http://www.balancedrider.com/align.htm

Photo 1. Good posture either on the ground or on the horse starts with a good alignment. A vertical line dropped down from the ear goes through the shoulder, hip and heel. The shoulders are relaxed and down, the pelvis is in a neutral (vertical) position, and the legs are under us. When the body is in good alignment, we need a minimum effort to stay or sit upright. Because we have to keep our balance on the moving horse (which is a task in itself), we do not want to do any extra work.

Photo 3. A chair seat is a very common mistake. It starts with the pelvis rotated backwards. As a result, the rider sits mostly on the back part of the pelvis, on the seatbones. If you like to round your lower back and rotate your pelvis backwards when you sit in a chair, you are likely to have that problem in the saddle.

Disclaimer. I hate and detest showing, with its obese horses and all. But why do some top riders adopt this ghastly chair seat?

 

[Rexie]

I guess it depends on the horse too.. those are all cob types so maybe it's about a how much effect your weight has on the horse. I guess in dressage you are trying to not interfere with the movement and the horses are generally finer. All context dependent I suppose.

 

[Rexie]

Tiddly, with the lucinda green pic...maybe she is trying not to put too much of her weight towards the horses forehand as the horse is quite slight in the front? Maybe it relates to the horses conformation as well as your own.

 

[KEC]

I've seen this seat position a lot in pictures from show rings from knowledgeable, successful and competent riders. Bit confusing but maybe it's like you have to learn how to ride 'properly' before you can start to change the rules. Like Les Dawsons piano playing......

 

[Rexie]

Ecb89, Ben mahers position seems to change...maybe it's related to the horses conformation? I guess every combination of horse and rider find what works for them over a fence and what they both prefer. Maybe some horses like the riders legs out of the way of their shoulder and their neck can take some of the riders weight...whereas the lucinda pic...It seems she trying not to out any of her weight onto the horses forehand. It must be trial and error.

 

[Rexie]

KEC, I agree, there must be exceptions to the rule depending.on context. I guess it's about understanding the subtleties of what you are try to achieve together.

 

[Rexie]

I wonder also...If horses naturally use their forehand more...then when doing things like xc/hunting, do they prefer to use their forehand? I know dressage is all about the using the hind legs but isn't that to achieve collection and suspension which arguably may not be prerequisites for xc/hunting.

 

[Woolly Hat n Wellies]

I may be talking utter codswallop, but I'm just pondering...

Could this style of seat taken by men in showing have any connection to the hunting seat used in centuries past, say the eighteenth century, when I believe it was considered correct? (dredging this up from the dim depths of my memory)

 

[AdorableAlice]

Some random pics that are on google images - I wondered about, and would be fab if some experts can shed some light!

I think this combination look fantastic, and clearly know what they are doing! Even though he is seated further back ( which some may call the chair seat) his centre of gravity is still in line. Is this sort of position what is sought after for men showing? I ask as the women seem to have a different position.

There definitely seems to be a "thing" about sitting further back, which always has me curious. (all clearly successful and well known in their field, so obviously know what they are doing!)

Robert Oliver on Loughern Dancing Lord, Robert Walker on Finn McCool and Manton, both of these riders are or have been MFH's and crossed more country than most of us put together.

Show horses will wear a straight cut saddle to show their magnificent fronts, the saddle is not pushed back, it is sat behind the shoulder blade, as any saddle should.

There is a vast difference between these professional horseman and a novice sitting like a sack of **** on the cantle of a poor fitting saddle. Sit out of balance on a schooled show horse and you will be in trouble, many are schooled to a high level. Mine, pictured below was a medium dressage horse when he was not showing.

Same horse, same rider

Here is the chair seat being used to keep a newly broken horse calm during traffic training.