chair seat

[Rexie]

That's interesting adorablealice, so how does it keep a horse calm? I have vague recollections of adopting a chair seat when I felt my pony was about to bolt. I guess it impedes the hind legs and back which prevents any sudden take off?

 

[alainax]

There is a vast difference between these professional horseman and a novice sitting like a sack of **** on the cantle of a poor fitting saddle. Sit out of balance on a schooled show horse and you will be in trouble, many are schooled to a high level. Mine, pictured below was a medium dressage horse when he was not showing.



Here is the chair seat being used to keep a newly broken horse calm during traffic training.

Thank you for the insight

So it is more a position which can be adopted by experienced riders, for a variety of different purposes. Whether that be security over obstacles, security for a young horse, to show off the horse correctly etc? A bit like stated below? and clearly vastly different from the novice version.

I've seen this seat position a lot in pictures from show rings from knowledgeable, successful and competent riders. Bit confusing but maybe it's like you have to learn how to ride 'properly' before you can start to change the rules. Like Les Dawsons piano playing......

 

[Rexie]

I guess it also depends on your overall philosophy. I'm sure the chair seat is good for blocking movement and keeps you behind the movement in unpredictable terrain but it must put excessive pressure on the sensitive part of the horses spine? So overall it's a choice between being safe and alleviating the pressure on your horses body long term (dependent on many factors).

 

[Tiddlypom]

AA, interesting insights from the show riders viewpoint. Still think that they would would look much better if they rode in balance, which IMHO they cannot do if their feet are stuck out in front like that. Maybe ditch the show saddles and get ones that support the rider better? But then, I'm a showing philistine.

In contrast, the Ted training pic shows the advantage of a defensive seat, to be used when riding a young or unpredictable horse. The defensive seat certainly has its uses.

 

[gunnergundog]

Tiddly, with the lucinda green pic...maybe she is trying not to put too much of her weight towards the horses forehand as the horse is quite slight in the front? Maybe it relates to the horses conformation as well as your own.

I think the drop on landing plus the imminent turn was the reason.

 

[gunnergundog]

I wonder also...If horses naturally use their forehand more...then when doing things like xc/hunting, do they prefer to use their forehand? I know dressage is all about the using the hind legs but isn't that to achieve collection and suspension which arguably may not be prerequisites for xc/hunting.

All horses (cob or TB) will naturally carry 60% of their weight on the forehand. That is how they're built. Whilst you may not require collection per se XC (apart from a coffin canter/bounce) you most certainly do NOT want any horse on the forehand whilst approaching a solid obstacle. You need the horse up in front, the hinds underneath it in an active, forwards canter. This is why flatwork/dressage is often the key to correcting jumping problems. The disciplines are connected regardless of what some think.

 

[webble]

I tried sitting in a chair seat this morning and fund it hard to use my legs properly

 

[AdorableAlice]

I wonder also...If horses naturally use their forehand more...then when doing things like xc/hunting, do they prefer to use their forehand? I know dressage is all about the using the hind legs but isn't that to achieve collection and suspension which arguably may not be prerequisites for xc/hunting.

I doubt you will see many horses using or being allowed to use their forehand to tackle solid fences. You might as well call the ambulance first.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding on the thread as to what is or is not a chair seat. If you look back at the pictures of Dancing Lord, Finn and Hallmark you will see horses moving themselves from behind, they are all uphill. It matters not what discipline you do, the horse must move from behind and be uphill.

An educated horse will want to be in front of the leg and looking through his bridle.

 

[Rexie]

Thanks for clarifying gunner and aa

 

[ester]

AA I have always wondered if it is to show how forward thinking the horses are, and to replicate the old fashioned hunting seat, or because they have hunted as riders- but then you don't see lady riders doing the same. I don't think anyone is saying they are out of balance but it is not the position that most people are taught/aim for for general effective riding on the flat. Surely the fact that the horses pictured are moving uphill and from behind does not stop the riders having their legs in the forward position as pictured?

does it occur outside of cobs and hunters? I'm going to have to look at some more pics!

ETA well chaps on hacks seem to be of more classical alignment.

 

[planete]

I definitely remember Lucinda Green advocating "pushing the seat backwards" in one of her books when approaching a cross-country fence as the last thing you want is to be exactly over the horse' s centre of gravity or in front of it over the fence in case of mishap as you then go over the horse' s head. There was no mention of helping/hindering the horse, just self-preservation.

 

[planete]

Also with young/flighty horses, an experienced rider will make their seat heavy, it feels as if you are sinking softly into the horse's back, relaxing deeply into the horse. I have never analysed it but I bet it would probably look like a chair seat from the ground. Pure self-defence and trying to brainwash the horse into relaxing.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I have found a picture that shows the 'bad' chair position. This is a novice young rider on a newly broken horse. Not ideal I know but she is monitored at all times and is a nice rider in the making. Plus being under 7 stone and having been promised the filly for the future she is very keen to improve.

This picture was taken at the weekend. My pair of 4 year olds in the school and walking over poles for the first time. The bay filly had thrown a strop a few moments before the picture was taken and the young rider had had a little fright. Having been told to sit back and relax she took it literally, collapsing in her core, head and shoulders tipped forward and is completely out of balance. Had the filly been naughty again the rider would go flying from that position.

As far as ladies in the chair position on show hunters, there are two that spring to mind. Lynn Russell takes it to an extreme and I don't think the position she rides in is flattering at all, especially as she is very crooked with a massively dropped inside shoulder, probably injured over the years I would think. The other is Mrs Oliver.

 

[ester]

Ah I forgot abut lynn!

Do you think it is because it is a left over from hunting/the 'look' showing or because these riders grew up hunting? I certainly think it is an interesting point.

 

[Tiddlypom]

OP, you've kicked off a cracking thread!

AA, thanks for your further comments. Many of us less-than-accomplished riders can collapse back to the bad chair position if things go t1ts up when we're riding.

Why on earth messrs Oliver, Walker et al think that riding with their lower leg rammed forward is a/attractive b/effective is beyond me. They are very talented riders so could ride with their legs pretty much anywhere they chose (love the analogy with Les Dawson's piano playing!).

It is many years since I studied A level Physics, but the basics of force, pivots and fulcrums has surely not changed. A rider in such a seat is always fighting against gravity to maintain balance. Why?

It certainly isn't attractive, efficient or aspirational from where I'm looking.

 

[rachk89]

Can see why riders would use it to stay on. I had my horse schooled by a showjumping coach and although my horse has never shown any signs of bad behaviour, it was very obvious he hated this guy and within minutes of him getting on, my horse was rearing and then bucking on landing trying to throw him off. He nearly succeeded a couple of times, but because the coach put his legs forward, he stayed on.

 

[Rexie]

Tiddly, your post summed up my thoughts. I'm still a bit perplexed about why you would use this position all the time. I can see it has its uses but I can also understand like you that it is detrimental in terms of physics and biomechanics of both horse and rider if done at all times. I'd really like to know why it works or is perceived to work for successful riders who use it all the time. Tradition may play a role I guess.

 

[Rexie]

I'm not sure staying on is the only thing riders should be concerned with...

 

[Firefly9410]

AA, thanks for your further comments. Many of us less-than-accomplished riders can collapse back to the bad chair position if things go t1ts up when we're riding.

Why on earth messrs Oliver, Walker et al think that riding with their lower leg rammed forward is a/attractive b/effective is beyond me. They are very talented riders so could ride with their legs pretty much anywhere they chose

A rider in such a seat is always fighting against gravity to maintain balance. Why? .

The two things you have described are not the same. The top bit I quoted is what I think of as a chair seat. A bad thing. An unbalanced rider not in harmony with the horse and whose aids will be ineffective. The second bit I quoted is different. The lower legs are forward with both seats but this one is not what I think of as a chair seat. It is a useful style of riding, slightly defensive as previously mentioned and the rider is in perfect balance, in harmony with the horse with effective aids.

The difference is with the true chair seat being about collapse and loss of balance with the rider lacking core strength and well and truly behind the movement. The rider in a defensive seat has a strong core. If you look at the photos closely you will see the riders have the upper body angled slightly forward. They are strong and in balance not collapsed behind the movement.

To answer why? For myself, it is because I ride difficult horses where I cannot let my guard down or I would not stay on if an incident occurs. In a defensive seat at worst I will be thrown up the horses neck if I am unseated, in a more typical forward seat usually seen for jumping I would be thrown clean over the shoulder and onto the floor. So when I gallop or jump I look more like Lucinda Green with my arms pushed forward a bit, which might result in a slightly round shouldered look, to give the horses head room but my bottom very close to the saddle and my legs forward to anchor myself for security. If I ride this way (defensively) a lot, which I will even in the arena with a spooky horse, I lose the necessary muscle development for maintaining the 100% proper classical dressage seat. In a dressage saddle there would be no problem but in a GP saddle, especially one set up more for jumping, to adopt a classical position involves going against the stirrups which will be encouraging my legs more forward. In the defensive seat I am not fighting gravity to maintain balance but to attempt to adopt a classical position in my GP saddle I would be. It is my experience that showing saddles tend to have the stirrup bar set a little forwards too which does not make it easy to get legs directly under bottom for a classical dressage position. Additionally, show horses usually gallop in competition whereas dressage horses do not and it is not at all easy to gallop in balance whilst in a classical dressage seat with very long stirrups!

 

[Barnacle]

I think it's worth making a distinction between a seat where the toes poke out the front and one where the knee is forward but the toe is behind it. The latter is very frequently seen in Classical Dressage (just google photos of Spanish Riding School performances!). Just cause the "Classical seat" has been mentioned a few times and I think most mean straight line shoulder-hip-heel, which is not actually necessarily the case.

The former is unbalancing and even on a young horse, I wouldn't take that position. The only context I can think of myself doing that is when a horse has taken off when I didn't expect it and I have been well and truly left behind. I can also see the merits of it as a defensive posture over jumps though - but not constantly! I think it would be exhausting to maintain that position constantly... But perhaps some peoples' anatomy allows them to do so.

This is a decent article about the anatomy of men versus women that leads to a lot of women adopting a toe-poking seat in a 'standard' saddle: http://holistichorse.com/health-care/saddle-fit-for-women/ But there are many more and videos on Youtube on the topic too. Worth a search cause I think people don't realise quite the effect a saddle has on your position!

 

[marmalade76]

Do some of you really think that infinitely experienced hunters and eventers would use this position if it hindered their horses? Do you really think they're unbalanced and concentrating their weight on the back of the saddle? If you're spending all day in the hunting field or riding around a long format cross country as Lucinda Green and Lorna Clark did in their day you want to make yourself as easy as possible for the horse to carry.

I ride like this in my jump saddles (not in my dressage saddle, that would be virtually impossible) and I can assure you my balance is good and my horses and ponies have no trouble carrying me!

And as for being unattractive, those chaps pictured look far more elegant than any SJ or dressage rider, and their horses go better too, a good dressage rider can hide a lot of faults form the judge but a show horse has to be perfect for the judge to ride too.

 

[ester]

Additionally, show horses usually gallop in competition whereas dressage horses do not and it is not at all easy to gallop in balance whilst in a classical dressage seat with very long stirrups!

Good point, and maybe why chaps on hacks seem to sit a bit more classically. I did wonder about stirrup bars too.

 

[[59668]]

Also, I always think about this....

If I ride bareback, it doesn't matter what pace, I fall into more of a chair seat, not a classic dressage seat. This must mean that a slightly chair seat is the more naturally balanced place to be, surely?

 

[Tiddlypom]

I fully agree that it may not be wise to gallop a large hunter in a grass arena whilst in a dressage seat!

It's probably a bit tight to get pics off t'interweb to pick holes in a rider's postion, so I apologise for naming names, but the pic I posted of Lucinda Green was IMHO showing a superb, safe seat. She was a childhood heroine of mine, and I have all of her books. I believe she learned to ride this way because of a naughty pony, which would otherwise dump her.

I learned to ride with the defensive but balanced seat in order to stay aboard the late chesnut git. He would still bronc me off once a year (he had a 100% success rate doing that with 3 different riders), but I was able to sit out the mad 5 minutes he put in every other day, though.

Now I am older, my seat will collapse to the 'bad' chair position if I'm not careful .

[59668], interesting about riding bareback. Another factor may be that a slight chair position reduces pressure on one's squishy bits .

 

[Rexie]

Yes bareback is very very uncomfortable in a classical position! I couldn't do it. Horses spine is hard!