Challenge accepted, horse..

[rachk89]

So I know I complain about my horse a lot, and a lot of people on here I imagine think he is the wrong one for me and that I should give up.

Well tonight my instructor basically said the same thing, again. He got on because the horse was taking the P again and decided that the bottom end of the school was terrifying and he absolutely could not go near it. So the instructor hopped on and he still couldnt get through to the horse. No improvement was made to be honest and my instructor has deemed him dangerous.

Now I would fully agree with this, based on what I saw tonight he was an arrogant, dramatic, dominating git. He uses his fear against you and then tries to dominate you to win. Unfortunately when you put a dominant rider on him, all he does is fight the rider. He refuses point blank to give in and no amount of stubbornness from the rider seems to be changing him. He has tried throwing one professional off because he hated being made to do something and not being asked too politely by me.

BUT, he is a darling to ride in the field, AND just recently I have got him working lovely in the arena. I mean the entire time in the arena we cant go in a straight line, because if he is allowed to think, thats when the dramatics start. But when you switch that brain off from fight mode and you ask for sensible mode, you get it if you distract him. And in the field, he is lovely. I can ride round on a long rein, you can ask for speed and he doesnt take off, he doesnt do anything remotely stupid like other horses do in the field. He just gets so tense about the arena and refuses to listen to reason. I would trust everyone at the yard on him in the field, but I would only allow 3/4 to get on him in the arena, if they were willing. Thats the big difference in personalities you get.

So while one option is the easy one: sell him, I can hardly pass off this dominant dramatic fool off to someone can I? Plus I wouldnt get anywhere near what he is actually worth, because his movement is phenomenal, he looks fantastic and he has one hell of a character. It is just this one section of the arena he hates and has only hated it since the trailers got moved to that end.

Second option: Boot camp. Instructor rides him 3/4 days a week and rides him pretty much into the ground to get it through to the stubborn git that he cannot be dominant and he must listen, at all times. I will then start riding again when the instructor sees fit.

So I'm accepting the challenge and we're going to break the dominance. I KNOW he can be a great horse, this is the horse who last year helped me to gain confidence to just get onto horses. I loved riding him, he never once acted dominant towards me (other riders yes, but never me). Even this year he has been fine with me and he only started pulling the dominant crap on me when the trailers moved. Thats how much of a freak he is, the trailers get moved from one side of the arena to the other and he flipped out.

I am also going to get him tested for being a rig. I'm not sure how likely it is, but he does display a lot of stallion traits and this dominance one is getting worse so I am wondering if maybe his hormones are going bonkers for some reason. Maybe its the new horses that have been added to the field thats made the hormones go bonkers (all gelding field and I found him on the 2nd day the new horses were introduced grooming one of them, so he can hardly be that bothered). But you never know, he is a weird creature.

So yes challenge accepted horse. Lets see where this takes us now (hello casualty, havent been here in a while). Maybe I am stupid or beyond stubborn, but I've put a lot of money into this horse and I refuse point blank on giving up on him yet. I shall update you with progress, good or bad, as necessary.

 

[Michen]

I think this horse needs a lameness work up. You've mentioned yourself you think maybe there is an underlying reason. Time to check it out

 

[Mongoose11]

I don't believe that attempting to 'dominate' him will improve him at all. It rarely does! I'd be putting in a heck of a lot of ground work or other confidence building ridden work before I allowed a pro to ride him in to the ground in an attempt to break him (not that I ever would).

 

[SEL]

I'd second checking him out physically. My PSSM mare was downright dangerous when she was given to me - but when she plays up now it's usually pain related. I've never been able to force her to do anything!

 

[rachk89]

He's definitely not lame. He's been seen by the vet and physio, they cant find anything wrong with him. Issue with his hoof is fine, just the chip bits on the wall need to grow out but thats gonna take forever since its at the top of the hoof. Physically he is fine, mentally er.. not so much. Plus if there was something wrong physically, he'd be an ass everywhere, not just in the arena. And even then its just half of the arena, the other half he has no issue with.

 

[JennBags]

I don't believe that attempting to 'dominate' him will improve him at all. It rarely does! I'd be putting in a heck of a lot of ground work or other confidence building ridden work before I allowed a pro to ride him in to the ground in an attempt to break him (not that I ever would).

^^^This, absolutely.

I'm afraid you're right in that I think he is definitely not the right horse for you, and carrying on with him is going to end up hurting one or the other of you.

 

[rachk89]

^^^This, absolutely.

I'm afraid you're right in that I think he is definitely not the right horse for you, and carrying on with him is going to end up hurting one or the other of you.

In fairness though, neither of you have seen what he is like. On the ground he is fine, you get on him and he's fine until you take him to the bottom end of that arena and suddenly he wont have it. But he wont listen either and he's needing a pro to tell him he is fine and to get over it. Cant see how else you would do that because any other way, he wont listen. I've tried ground work down at the end he doesnt like, I've showed him the things he finds scary multiple times. He's fine with them if you arent on him. Get on and he's unreasonable. He is also fine if there are other horses there. By himself, a complete jerk.

Maybe he is, but I'm not giving up whether people think its a bad idea or not. I think he can be changed. Theres no reason why not.

 

[Dave's Mam]

Is it just this one end of this one school? You say he is fine to ride in field and in arena (different arena, or same one without the horseboxes?). Have you tried him in a different school?

I also do not think "Dominating" him is the way forward.
I'd get him checked & also wonder if there is something at that end of the school, bothering him. Something dead under a box (my old loan pony would not go near anything dead) or a dogfox hiding perhaps?

Just throwing a few ideas out there.

 

[chestnut cob]

If he's OK physically then I don't see the problem with sending him away to boot camp with a pro but it had to be the right person. I really doubt that someone who's going to argue with him & try to dominate him is the answer. Find a sympathetic rider who can get into his head & work our how what's going on with him mentally, not one who's going to (potentially by the sounds of it) use brute force. It might work in the short term but not long term.

 

[be positive]

I don't think horses are arrogant or particularly dominant in the way you describe, they are far more simple in most ways, they react and many will not cooperate with forceful methods so fight back rather than give in, is that being dominant I am not sure but I am certain that picking a fight with a scared horse will usually end up in failure, hence your instructor labeling him as dangerous because the horse won the argument.
The horse is not a freak, something obviously worries him and if he gets into a fight every time he becomes tense he is being given more reason to be worried, as he is good elsewhere then you need to look at things more from his point of view, why is he scared of the arena, why can he not go in a straight line at least in the part he is not worried about, is he ok on the lunge or long reins in there? can he be turned out or do some loose work in their or even be fed each day until it becomes a positive rather than the negative place it currently is.

I think he is your first horse so while you are doing well in many ways you do come across as if you take any bad behaviour rather personally and as if the people around you, your instructor, all have a similar attitude of meeting him head on rather than trying to work with him, over the many years I have worked with horses I have learnt that it can be far more beneficial to work on their strengths, work in a positive way and reward tiny steps rather than wanting to force the issue, a horse that is fighting is not going to work with you even if it submits it will still be ready to take flight the next time something worries it.

I wish you well and hope you or the horse do not end up in A&E or losing the trust you do have in each other.

 

[Mongoose11]

So the way to bring a horse right is to dominate them despite them having some mental barriers? How can you think this is the right way forward. What other species would this work with without damaging them further?

There's a huge chance he can be changed, of course there is, but I doubt it will be by the methods you describe.

 

[rachk89]

Is it just this one end of this one school? You say he is fine to ride in field and in arena (different arena, or same one without the horseboxes?). Have you tried him in a different school?

I also do not think "Dominating" him is the way forward.
I'd get him checked & also wonder if there is something at that end of the school, bothering him. Something dead under a box (my old loan pony would not go near anything dead) or a dogfox hiding perhaps?

Just throwing a few ideas out there.

Just that one end of the school. They moved the trailers from one side of it to the other just to move them out of the way for building work. He was iffy about them anyway where they were originally, but the move has messed with his head. Havent been able to try him in a different school unfortunately due to no transport, but I think he would be fine in another arena.

I've taken him down to that end loads of times while leading him and he's fine. Sniffs around and looks, then just gets bored. He's just an idiot when being ridden.

 

[Equi]

You missed an option. Moved him to a yard he does not find the arena terrifying.

 

[rachk89]

So the way to bring a horse right is to dominate them despite them having some mental barriers? How can you think this is the right way forward. What other species would this work with without damaging them further?

There's a huge chance he can be changed, of course there is, but I doubt it will be by the methods you describe.

How would you do it then? I've asked on here before and no one has ever said how to fix him. Groundwork doesnt help, lunging doesnt help. I've reduced his feed, he's out all day and all night (currently but he will be back in eventually). But I dont know what to do about him and this is my instructors suggestion. He needs to be worked through it for a few weeks. I dont know what else we could do because he wont listen.

 

[ossy]

I'm another that would go back basics and put him on long reins for a while maybe with a mouthing bit for a while too and really work on your partnership on the ground build confidence between you and get him moving towards really working between the hand and leg while on the ground and less likely for you to get hurt. Then you should have a better stab at controlling him when he does spook and nap when your back on him. Has done wonders for my stubborn spooky mare.

 

[Dave's Mam]

You missed an option. Moved him to a yard he does not find the arena terrifying.

Worked for me!

 

[rachk89]

You missed an option. Moved him to a yard he does not find the arena terrifying.

You are right that is an option. But theres not really any yards around here I would put him to, for various reasons (like stabling isnt great, yard owner seems a little nuts, ragwort in fields that is never picked by anyone etc). It may come down to that sadly and maybe I'll have to look further afield (yay more travelling). But I guess if it helps him, then it must be.

 

[ossy]

You missed an option. Moved him to a yard he does not find the arena terrifying.

What happens when you want to go to a competition or something and decides that arena is terrifying too?

 

[honetpot]

You have answered the question yourself. Boot camp would make him sour, he has a pony mind and different things keep him sweet because they interest him.
I taught my daughters from being small, no school. You have to use your brain to avoid confrontation so the child always wins.
When my daughter was 14 she had a 16hand cob which we broke herself, in a schooling session with a trainer he could not make the corner so ran out, the trainer got on thinking they knew better, that he was naughty when the corner was too tight for him. The horse ended up a mess, it still could not make the corner and shut down, and wouldn't do anything, the trainer just looked stupid, and I was very cross.
He is happy ridden in the field so there must be a trigger in the school, which is usually pain but can be boredom. I would only take him in the for 15mins, give him a simple task, like halting on x with just your seat or doing a few transitions with seat aids and voice. As soon as he gets it right, praise and pat and take him for a hack, preferably with a friend. You can practice leg yield , shoulder in on hacks.
I would try reading Mary Wanless, Ride with your mind. I think you would be better working on the positive and let him get something right than reinforcing the negative.

 

[rachk89]

I'm another that would go back basics and put him on long reins for a while maybe with a mouthing bit for a while too and really work on your partnership on the ground build confidence between you and get him moving towards really working between the hand and leg while on the ground and less likely for you to get hurt. Then you should have a better stab at controlling him when he does spook and nap when your back on him. Has done wonders for my stubborn spooky mare.

Yeah that is one thing I havent tried, long reining him. I might try that tomorrow night with him in the arena if there is no one else in it and see how he does. Probably the same, but could at least attempt to build on it. Cheers.

 

[be positive]

Just that one end of the school. They moved the trailers from one side of it to the other just to move them out of the way for building work. He was iffy about them anyway where they were originally, but the move has messed with his head. Havent been able to try him in a different school unfortunately due to no transport, but I think he would be fine in another arena.

I've taken him down to that end loads of times while leading him and he's fine. Sniffs around and looks, then just gets bored. He's just an idiot when being ridden.

He is a horse not an idiot, your complete lack of understanding about how the equine mind works means you will struggle to overcome this successfully, you may "win" the battle but are unlikely to win the war, it has nothing to do with him being dominant and everything to do with him lacking confidence in himself, his surroundings, you and your instructor.
Work where he is good, and get him going really well, do things to interest him, polework can focus the mind, then gradually creep little by little into the scary zone but always take him back to his comfort zone as a reward, positive reinforcement, confidence building and gaining his trust will work but will require patience and a skillful, sensitive rider.

 

[Equi]

What happens when you want to go to a competition or something and decides that arena is terrifying too?

What, like most horses do? lol

You work on it. But you can't work on calming a horse down who is terrified every time he enters his own arena. If they associate the arena with work/calming then he may be okay.

 

[rachk89]

You have answered the question yourself. Boot camp would make him sour, he has a pony mind and different things keep him sweet because they interest him.
I taught my daughters from being small, no school. You have to use your brain to avoid confrontation so the child always wins.
When my daughter was 14 she had a 16hand cob which we broke herself, in a schooling session with a trainer he could not make the corner so ran out, the trainer got on thinking they knew better, that he was naughty when the corner was too tight for him. The horse ended up a mess, it still could not make the corner and shut down, and wouldn't do anything, the trainer just looked stupid, and I was very cross.
He is happy ridden in the field so there must be a trigger in the school, which is usually pain but can be boredom. I would only take him in the for 15mins, give him a simple task, like halting on x with just your seat or doing a few transitions with seat aids and voice. As soon as he gets it right, praise and pat and take him for a hack, preferably with a friend. You can practice leg yield , shoulder in on hacks.
I would try reading Mary Wanless, Ride with your mind. I think you would be better working on the positive and let him get something right than reinforcing the negative.

I dunno if it would make him sour, but he definitely has a pony mind (blame the connemara in him for that).

I have been keeping it very basic with him, transitions mainly because it keeps him thinking, the more time you let him think the worse he gets and he's a big horse so he has a lot of energy and power. I have actually just recently found out that there is a forest we can get to without going on the road thank god so will try and take him there this weekend (although I was told not to ride him but eh what the instructor doesnt know cant hurt him).

 

[rachk89]

He is a horse not an idiot, your complete lack of understanding about how the equine mind works means you will struggle to overcome this successfully, you may "win" the battle but are unlikely to win the war, it has nothing to do with him being dominant and everything to do with him lacking confidence in himself, his surroundings, you and your instructor.
Work where he is good, and get him going really well, do things to interest him, polework can focus the mind, then gradually creep little by little into the scary zone but always take him back to his comfort zone as a reward, positive reinforcement, confidence building and gaining his trust will work but will require patience and a skillful, sensitive rider.

See thats what I was doing basically when circling him around jumps in the arena, gradually moving down to the scary end and going back to the good end as a reward if he behaved. But I cant keep circling jumps all of the time, he is going to have to go around the edge at some point and he hasnt improved on this in months. Polework actually doesnt really make him focus very well, it does for a little bit, like maybe 1 or 2 goes over the poles, but then he gets too excited, forgets himself and leaps over them like a jump, which is not overly safe.

 

[YorksG]

The other thing I think you need to change is your instructor. Anyone who thinks that the way to deal with a horse like this is to "dominate" and essentially ride it into the ground, would not be allowed inside my yard gate. I find some of your descriptions of his behaviour, or at least your perception of the causes of his behaviour, quite worrying, as both you and your instructor appear to be ascribing some very odd motivations for this horse. I would suggest that you should go and read some good books (Molly Sivewright, Sylvia Loch, Mary Wanless) to get more ideas of how horses respond and how to ride in a way that gets the horse working with you.

 

[Michen]

How do you know he's not lame. Has he ever been seen by a vet for a work up (not necessarily lameness). You say he used to be the horse that gave you confidence. If my horse went from confidence giving to behaving like his, I would first give him the benefit of the doubt that he was trying to tell me something. Horses aren't freaks, idiots, stupid. They try and communicate with us and it's our job to listen, currently you aren't. And if it's not physical then both you and your instructor are doing something wrong for this to be worsening.

 

[rachk89]

The other thing I think you need to change is your instructor. Anyone who thinks that the way to deal with a horse like this is to "dominate" and essentially ride it into the ground, would not be allowed inside my yard gate. I find some of your descriptions of his behaviour, or at least your perception of the causes of his behaviour, quite worrying, as both you and your instructor appear to be ascribing some very odd motivations for this horse. I would suggest that you should go and read some good books (Molly Sivewright, Sylvia Loch, Mary Wanless) to get more ideas of how horses respond and how to ride in a way that gets the horse working with you.

Problem is all of the instructors around here agree on his behaviour. I think I'm not describing it right, but they're all in agreement that he is taking the P and needs to be ridden through it, although one doesnt believe he can be changed which I dont agree with. I do think my instructor is being overly harsh on the horse as he can be good, even in the arena, but its brief moments of good followed by a lot of bad. Its getting a consistent good behaviour I cant seem to get from him no matter how I ride him.

 

[ossy]

You missed an option. Moved him to a yard he does not find the arena terrifying.

What, like most horses do? lol

You work on it. But you can't work on calming a horse down who is terrified every time he enters his own arena. If they associate the arena with work/calming then he may be okay.

Most horses don't need to play up at comp venues no. You work on your and your horses confidence and partnership and move on from there you don't need to just move around until you find an arena they will behave in you build the fundamentals of basic scales of training.
My mare used to be like you describe but a lot of hard graft in our training and I don't have to worry now when we go to a new venue about how she may take to that particular arena. And that's from the horse reversing me out dressage arenas to doing nice "clear rounds" at regionals.

 

[be positive]

See thats what I was doing basically when circling him around jumps in the arena, gradually moving down to the scary end and going back to the good end as a reward if he behaved. But I cant keep circling jumps all of the time, he is going to have to go around the edge at some point and he hasnt improved on this in months. Polework actually doesnt really make him focus very well, it does for a little bit, like maybe 1 or 2 goes over the poles, but then he gets too excited, forgets himself and leaps over them like a jump, which is not overly safe.

There is so much you can do without just circling, transitions, leg yielding, squares, changes of rein, if he leg yields well he can be pushed out a bit then back in so he really listens and has no idea where he is going next.

Getting over excited with poles shows a lack of basic education, mine loves jumping but can still walk, trot or canter over poles without throwing a wobbly and he is not the easiest ride, they need to learn the basics and have them established before moving on to the next stage, if they are not established you end up where you are now with an unruly horse that lacks confidence at times which is not an easy combination.

It is not easy to go back to basics with a horse you have owned for some time as it seems like a big step backwards but in reality until you take the right approach it will be difficult to ever move genuinely forward.

 

[rachk89]

There is so much you can do without just circling, transitions, leg yielding, squares, changes of rein, if he leg yields well he can be pushed out a bit then back in so he really listens and has no idea where he is going next.

Getting over excited with poles shows a lack of basic education, mine loves jumping but can still walk, trot or canter over poles without throwing a wobbly and he is not the easiest ride, they need to learn the basics and have them established before moving on to the next stage, if they are not established you end up where you are now with an unruly horse that lacks confidence at times which is not an easy combination.

It is not easy to go back to basics with a horse you have owned for some time as it seems like a big step backwards but in reality until you take the right approach it will be difficult to ever move genuinely forward.

We do that yeah. Lots of transitions, he can leg yield and does shoulder in (usually end up doing that a lot down the long side when he is being spooky).

I dont mind going back to basics with him, I just want him to go back to what he was like before hand, when I bought him. He used to be lovely all of the time, no matter where he went. He looks a lot at things, he is very nosy and has to look at everything, its getting the right reaction from him at times that is the problem. He used to be much braver than this, usually whatever frightens him he will stop to look and then get over it. But this he cant seem to get over.

He does love jumping too much and gets way too excited about it. He can jump pretty well, although he drops his legs too much. But it is just lack of training, but I mean we cant get flatwork right, why add in jumps haha.