Change of use for livery, local farmer exempt?

[Santi]

A complaint from neighbour has led to me needing to apply for planning permission and change of use on my field. My mistake as I thought just grazing and some hay in winter wouldn't need change of use but my planning officer says it does. I have 15-30 sheep (depending on time of year) and 4 liveries (had 6 last year) on about 16 acres. Been here about 7 years. The land is poor so I do big fields, 2 acres per horse and rest the fields. Another farm locally started doing livery about 3 years ago but apparently they don't need change of use. They don't put their cows in the (tiny) horse paddocks which have post and rail fences. Has anyone else come across this? I am genuinely confused about why I have to do change of use and they don't. Officer said no development had occurred at the farm, which has about 6 field shelters and water troughs etc for the horses. My field is registered with Rural Payments Agency for the sheep and the RPA don't mind the horses, I've checked. The only difference I can see is that I built an arena, which does have full planning permission, but that means no-one rides in the fields. I have no stables, only 4 mobile shelters.

 

[ihatework]

Presumably change of use from agricultural to equestrian, doesn’t surprise me, as soon as you are using the land for horses for anything other than grazing then it’s change of use. Livery and a school is telling! That said, I’m surprised your neighbour doesn’t have to.
I’m going through change of use now just to graze, pop hardstanding down and install a mobile shelter. No riding.

 

[sport horse]

If you have been doing this for 7 years is tht long enough for 'established use' in which case you just need a certificate of lawfulness.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I am surprised that your sheep don't outweigh the horses. Isn't it 1 horse =4 sheep? I would get legal advice from BHS or similar before completing the application

 

[blitznbobs]

Nope you don’t need planning permission to graze horses on agricultural land - it is allowed. You can’t ride on it though. Except for 28 days of the year … and if you keep sheep it’s a slam dunk …

 

[teapot]

The moment the horses need hay or feed, you need to apply for planning permission. Use as grazing land is exactly that, grazing only!

https://www.markdoodesplanning.co.uk/use-of-equestrian-land.html#:~:text=In%20other%20words%2C%20if%20you,land%20that's%20free%20from%20buildings.

What the neighbours are doing and/or getting away with means nothing for you.

ETS - building an arena won’t have helped you from a neighbourhood watch point of view.

 

[blitznbobs]

The moment the horses need hay or feed, you need to apply for planning permission. Use as grazing land is exactly that, grazing only!

https://www.markdoodesplanning.co.uk/use-of-equestrian-land.html#:~:text=In%20other%20words%2C%20if%20you,land%20that's%20free%20from%20buildings.

What the neighbours are doing and/or getting away with means nothing for you.

There is case law on that too - if it is necessary for the good of the animals then you don’t -(there are lots of cattle feeders out there) and also just be aware any horse breeding stock is agricultural too

 

[PeterNatt]

Planning laws allow for two classification of horses classifying them as either 'Agricultural' or 'Pleasure'.
Horses are deemed as agricultural as long as they are not fed or ridden for pleasure purposes. However, horses working on the land are adeemed agricultural even if they are fed.
Different Planning departments view the constraints differently and most will not do anything unless there is a formal complaint.
Getting 'Change of use' from Agricultural to Equestrian will resolve the issues but make sure that you use a local surveyor that has equestrian knowledge and deals frequently with your local planning departtment.

 

[SantaVera]

As far as I am aware farmers are exempt from needing planning because it comes under farm diversification.

 

[blitznbobs]

Planning laws allow for two classification of horses classifying them as either 'Agricultural' or 'Pleasure'.
Horses are deemed as agricultural as long as they are not fed or ridden for pleasure purposes. However, horses working on the land are adeemed agricultural even if they are fed.
Different Planning departments view the constraints differently and most will not do anything unless there is a formal complaint.
Getting 'Change of use' from Agricultural to Equestrian will resolve the issues but make sure that you use a local surveyor that has equestrian knowledge and deals frequently with your local planning departtment.

However it has major tax implications to change of use - if it’s a lot of land I suggest that changing use should be done with extreme caution

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

However it has major tax implications to change of use - if it’s a lot of land I suggest that changing use should be done with extreme caution

Several posters seem to have missed that OP's core business is sheep. The horses are incidental to that, in fact diversification. Sheep are always agricultural, whether kept for breeding or meat. OP does not need/want change of use for the land because the land is primarily used for the sheep.

 

[Vodkagirly]

However it has major tax implications to change of use - if it’s a lot of land I suggest that changing use should be done with extreme caution

What's the tax implications?

 

[ycbm]

What's the tax implications?

Farm land is free of inheritance tax when you die.
.

 

[myheartinahoofbeat]

Farm land is free of inheritance tax when you die.
.

Does this mean that if you have your own horses on your land ,say 20 acres, this land is not exempt from IHT?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

There is case law on that too - if it is necessary for the good of the animals then you don’t -(there are lots of cattle feeders out there) and also just be aware any horse breeding stock is agricultural too

Many farmers also give their sheep supplementary feeding.

 

[ycbm]

Does this mean that if you have your own horses on your land ,say 20 acres, this land is not exempt from IHT?

If you have a holding number for it and it is classed as farmland, and is legally separate from a non farm domestic property it's my understanding there would be no IHT, but it's possible you may also need to run some sheep.
.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

A holding number is merely for administrative purposes, it's not considered legally to be proof of anything. You need a holding number to keep cloven-hoofed animals on the land

 

[Orangehorse]

OP, I would consult the BHS about your planning problem, although different Councils have different policies. But I too would think that if you have been doing this for several years it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Re IHT - agricultural land/businesses are exempt. I think you would need to take advice regarding your 20 acres attached to your house, it may well NOT be exempt if it is not farmed.

There is no such thing as a retired farmer still living in the farmhouse, because once retired the agricultural exemption (for the house) is lost.

 

[marmalade76]

If you have a holding number for it and it is classed as farmland, and is legally separate from a non farm domestic property it's my understanding there would be no IHT, but it's possible you may also need to run some sheep.
.

It has to have been running as s working farm for two years before a death and certain things don't count, like poultry for some reason (even if you're running a poultry business).

A few years ago we were asked to "help" someone "prove" that an old lady who'd been virtually house bound for two years was running a working farm. Things like hedge cutting and topping don't count as it's just maintenance, poultry don't count and nor does grass crop if it's not been fertilised. She'd had all her sheep shot when she first started losing her mobility. She did rent out some grazing for cattle in the summer only but that was nothing to do with us. No idea whether or not they managed to swing it but there was no way we were going to help someone fib to the taxman.

 

[PeterNatt]

Unfortunately the farm concerned appears to have installed an arena which seriously complicates matters as an arena within a farming property would mean that part of the property in additional to the arena i.e the stables, feed shed etc. are thus deemed to be equestrian. In addition if any service is provided and the VAT threshold of the services are exceeded then they must register for VAT and charge VAT on the stabling and the services.
As regards to death duties if the farm and even a property wholly associated with the activities of the farm are part of the estate of the person who has doied then it is possible to apply for Exemption on Death Duties on the bais that they were wholy used for farming. Any part of the property that has change of use to Equestrian may not be possible to apply for Exemption of Death Duties but tis can all can become very complicated. Another option would be to put the entire property in Trust however the person(s) applying to do this must not benefit from it.

 

[marmalade76]

Most farms are VAT reg because it pays for them to be but even if it wasn't, I doubt very much that a few DIY liveries would reach the threshold, anywhere near.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Unfortunately the farm concerned appears to have installed an arena which seriously complicates matters as an arena within a farming property would mean that part of the property in additional to the arena i.e the stables, feed shed etc. are thus deemed to be equestrian. In addition if any service is provided and the VAT threshold of the services are exceeded then they must register for VAT and charge VAT on the stabling and the services.
As regards to death duties if the farm and even a property wholly associated with the activities of the farm are part of the estate of the person who has doied then it is possible to apply for Exemption on Death Duties on the bais that they were wholy used for farming. Any part of the property that has change of use to Equestrian may not be possible to apply for Exemption of Death Duties but tis can all can become very complicated. Another option would be to put the entire property in Trust however the person(s) applying to do this must not benefit from it.

Which is why the OP would do better to explain to PO that her land is primarily for agricultural use (sheep). The arena has Pp but does not take up the whole of the land, in fact its just a small portion of it. If necessary OP, I would be prepared to put more sheep on the land.

Eta, OP has already said that she doesn't have stables, just field shelters, which can be used for sheep, too, as can any feed storage.

 

[Santi]

Thanks, will call BHS. The field has always been agricultural, with cattle on it before I took it over. I didn't realise farms could get round it with diversification. I thought all the grants for that had ended now. I think the pleasure riding thing is the problem, although the planning office says I need planning because its a new business, which is why I don't understand how the farm doesn't, ...but yes its a farm and they can do what they like!

I could try the 'I'm a farm too' but how would you 'register' as a farm? The land is in Countryside Stewardship, and I had to get an accountant to verify I was an 'active farmer' to get into the scheme (you could use the Basic Farm Payment as a type of income). I've seen the planning dept here ask for accounts to show farming income, and I don't make much out of the sheep, just pocket money. So the horse income is greater than the sheep income which I think they would use as the deciding factor, not numbers of stock.

There is another farm here which did have to apply for planning for livery a few years ago. Although they got round applying for their 'arena' by calling it a lamininic paddock. Now another yard has claimed their new arena is a laminitic paddock too. Honestly the words planning and muppets get used in the same sentence here a lot. I think I'll have to apply now they have their teeth into me, but still annoyed the farm doesn't have to, and the laminitic paddock people just annoy me.

Surely the whole point of an arena is that it is not for grazing, and it is used for exercise? Wouldn't that make a laminitic paddock (with a surface) require planning? Especially as the owners do actually ride in it?

 

[blitznbobs]

Thanks, will call BHS. The field has always been agricultural, with cattle on it before I took it over. I didn't realise farms could get round it with diversification. I thought all the grants for that had ended now. I think the pleasure riding thing is the problem, although the planning office says I need planning because its a new business, which is why I don't understand how the farm doesn't, ...but yes its a farm and they can do what they like!

I could try the 'I'm a farm too' but how would you 'register' as a farm? The land is in Countryside Stewardship, and I had to get an accountant to verify I was an 'active farmer' to get into the scheme (you could use the Basic Farm Payment as a type of income). I've seen the planning dept here ask for accounts to show farming income, and I don't make much out of the sheep, just pocket money. So the horse income is greater than the sheep income which I think they would use as the deciding factor, not numbers of stock.

There is another farm here which did have to apply for planning for livery a few years ago. Although they got round applying for their 'arena' by calling it a lamininic paddock. Now another yard has claimed their new arena is a laminitic paddock too. Honestly the words planning and muppets get used in the same sentence here a lot. I think I'll have to apply now they have their teeth into me, but still annoyed the farm doesn't have to, and the laminitic paddock people just annoy me.

Surely the whole point of an arena is that it is not for grazing, and it is used for exercise? Wouldn't that make a laminitic paddock (with a surface) require planning? Especially as the owners do actually ride in it?

If you must apply , choose a small area and just apply for pp on that small area x

 

[PeterNatt]

The problem is probably the arena which is tipping the scales. You could remove the arena and state that the horses are supplimentaryt o the sheep . (They can also charge rates on arena). Alternatively apply for 'Change of Use' from agricultural to equestrian and then that solves all your problems.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Simply increase the number of sheep on your land- problem solved!

 

[Santi]

I googled farm diversification and it seems it would need planning as its a change of use from ag to equestrian...

Thinking of offering horse livery at your farm? | Bowcock & Pursaill Solicitors

Equine and agricultural specialist Catherine Whittles of Staffordshire law firm Bowcock & Pursaill answers your most common questions. Do I need planning permission? Yes you may do, as equine and agriculture fall into different use classes. This also applies to any buildings you erect for...

www.bowcockpursaill.co.uk

 

[Santi]

The problem is probably the arena which is tipping the scales. You could remove the arena and state that the horses are supplimentaryt o the sheep . (They can also charge rates on arena). Alternatively apply for 'Change of Use' from agricultural to equestrian and then that solves all your problems.

I don't massively object to doing the change of use, if that's the law then ok. Just somewhat pis...d that I'm paying out for a mountain of planning fees and our planning officer says everyone else is exempt...

 

[Orangehorse]

If you are in Countryside Stewardship and have been claiming the Basic Payment Scheme then you are a farm, I reckon.
There are specialist soliticitors who deal with agricultural matters, and even a good knowledgeable Land Agent person would know all the rules and regulations.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

If you are in Countryside Stewardship and have been claiming the Basic Payment Scheme then you are a farm, I reckon.
There are specialist soliticitors who deal with agricultural matters, and even a good knowledgeable Land Agent person would know all the rules and regulations.

Get yourself some knowledgeable legal advice and the planning officer will back down