Channel 4 8.30 tonight

[Moomin1]

He was apparently a successful breeder of show ponies/horses in his day so I agree with moomin that he doesn't need education, I suspect he has forgotten more than many of us will ever know. I do think the RSPCA went about it in the wrong way, whatever the history hinted at by moomin. The prosecution was pointless, if the welfare of the horses was so poor then they should simply have siezed the lot and that would/should have been an end to it. The film of them trying to catch and load the black pony was not inspiring, they just made themselves look incompetent. I would imagine that he is a difficult man to deal with, the tragedy in his life has made him opt out of society and have his horses as companions instead of people. Whatever the history, background etc his story is a sad one and the man deserves sympathy rather than scorn!

Right, ok, so the police seize the lot, take them away...they still 'belong' to the owner. They cannot be rehomed or have anything done with them until a court decides whether they should be permanently removed from the owner. A Section 20 application under AWA may be made, in order to not prosecute in some instances, however this would deal with the issues of the horses removed, but not prevent him in any way whatsoever from filling his fields back up and being in the same situation 6 months down the line. Now that really would be a waste of money.

 

[domane]

I haven't read through the whole thread so I may be duplicating a previous post, but Michelle is on FB, re-homing Clwyd's ponies on her Wrexham Rescue Horses page. Understandably the page is a bit clogged up with messages of support to her at the moment, but if you join the page and tab down, you can see how hard she works.....

 

[Moomin1]

I haven't read through the whole thread so I may be duplicating a previous post, but Michelle is on FB, re-homing Clwyd's ponies on her Wrexham Rescue Horses page. Understandably the page is a bit clogged up with messages of support to her at the moment, but if you join the page and tab down, you can see how hard she works.....

I'm sure she does work very hard given the continual task she has of rehoming all of his bred or acquired horses time after time.

 

[Goldenstar]

It's trying to stop further breeding that is so difficult with hoarders it's perfectly possible that you could reduce the herd get the entires moved on turn your back and find the hoarder has found a "compelling reason' to put a colt back in with the mares ,their reasoning process is just wired differently.
To those who say these horses look well covered yes most of them did but what about regular worming , tetanus shots, basic foot care these things can't be skipped just because you have 52 horses and an are living an alternative life style , what if they all got strangles who would pay to treat them ?
The RSPCA will not have removed horses without a vet being prepared to say that it was necessary or they where voluntarily signed over I have never seen them remove a healthy horse IME I saw more pitiful horses left because it was felt the prosecution was too borderline
This is not a situation that you can just leave this man will need help in an ongoing way long term Michelle has I think the best chance of doing this I appauld her .
I would not like to see this old man with no horses but it needs getting and keeping under control easy to say difficult to do.

 

[_GG_]

On the whole I just found this programme sad.

It is sad that society can allow any person to become so lost.

I found this particularly poignant as I have just helped an elderly man at my yard in circumstances that are not dissimilar, just far less horses. That man made the decision due to safety and welfare reasons to have his horsesput to sleep.

If the rspca worked with this man, things could have been very different.

All of the horses sold off to reduce numbers were sold for low asking prices. The chances are that many if theses horses could have been bought by people looking for a bargain but not having the necessary experience. Those horses could then end up left in a field, abandoned, in worse conditions or passed from pillar to post as do gooder after do gooder try and fail to "break" them. God only knows what those horses could go through.

At least with this man, they were happy herd animals. Allowing his friends horses on the land couldave cost him that filly, but sometimes foals do just die.

I would think.it far better to look to set up a partnership with a local college or training centre. Big college with an equestrian programme agrees to take x amount of youngsters a year. Students get hands on experience of correct starting and training. College sells for decent prices as horses are well educated and pay a percentage to Clwyd that goes towards worming, trimming where necessary and castration of colts.

People like Clwyd put up such barriers as a way of protecting themselves. Damn good on Michelle for doing all that she dies, but perhaps someone could help her as well and perhaps...if the RSPCA come across someone like Clwyd, they could share information to ensure that channels of support are opened up for him as well.

Should the RSPCA have just taken all the horses? Possibly. But I would be extremely concerned for Clwyds welfare should that happen. Also, we can't be naive with these things. Shelters are massively overstocked, so very often actually it would be better to PTS than sell on to uncertain futures.

Very thought provoking subject.

My friend now is also part of the family and we have enabled him to keep one of his horses. This does mean that we still have to help him out, but better to make a little sacrifice and be able to keep an eye on him, make sure he is going to the doctors when he needs and is eating enough than just sort the horses out and leave him to sink away into an invisible life.

 

[_GG_]

Please excuse spelling mistakes...posting from phone is not easy

 

[The_snoopster]

I am surprized that so many are in support of this man over breeding when there are far too many iunwanted horses in this country, he did not just have young colts on his property they removed several stallions as well as colts. I am not in support of taking all his horses off him, but trust me this man could be left with mares only and he would not be able to resist getting another stallion and start the cycle again.
Had not the RSPCA become involved how many more would of been bred, colts serving their own dams, brothers and sisters interbreeding. He did not separate colts and fillies they all ran together, whilst I am not the RSPCA,s biggest fan but its really not there job to get this man treated for any mental health issues he may or maynot have. And why should peoples donations go to worming this mans horses which he addmitted he was breeding himself, and he was not the type to listen to reason from the RSPCA so maybe by taking him to court might shock him into getting his act together although I doubt this very much.

 

[Ibblebibble]

don't think anyone did agree with his breeding practices but the heavy handed incompetence of the RSPCA was not the best way of helping him.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Unfortunately things could escalate at any time, as tho the programme said he had 'moved into an abandoned farm' this is not his, nor is he renting it - he's squatting there. So if/when eviction starts, then there is a bigger problem in moving the horses on.

I'm sure everyone has differing opinions (as posted all through this thread!) but Michelle is doing a sterling job, but being hindered so often by Clwyd when he adds to his stores with more stock including stallions, or when he wont get the colts gelded. The latter is what the RSPCA should be helping with - gelding and/or removal of all colts at weaning.

 

[spottybotty]

It's trying to stop further breeding that is so difficult with hoarders it's perfectly possible that you could reduce the herd get the entires moved on turn your back and find the hoarder has found a "compelling reason' to put a colt back in with the mares ,their reasoning process is just wired differently.
To those who say these horses look well covered yes most of them did but what about regular worming , tetanus shots, basic foot care these things can't be skipped just because you have 52 horses and an are living an alternative life style , what if they all got strangles who would pay to treat them ?
The RSPCA will not have removed horses without a vet being prepared to say that it was necessary or they where voluntarily signed over I have never seen them remove a healthy horse IME I saw more pitiful horses left because it was felt the prosecution was too borderline
This is not a situation that you can just leave this man will need help in an ongoing way long term Michelle has I think the best chance of doing this I appauld her .
I would not like to see this old man with no horses but it needs getting and keeping under control easy to say difficult to do.

I am going to agree with Moomin and ^^^^^. I have first hand experience of animal hoarders. Despite the fact that he knew the RSPCA were on his case he took on a "mates" horses!!!Hoarders just dont know when to stop collecting animals. I actually got very angry when he sat laughing and eating his sandwich as the RSPCA tried to catch the black pony. The ponies know him and trust him ,he could have quite easily have caught the black pony instead of watching it get exceptionally stressed at the efforts of the RSPCA. I am not a fan of the RSPCA but they just cant win! I could imagine the outcry if the horses had been left and conditions deteriorated even further, people would be up in arms saying "Where was the RSPCA?".

 

[haribo83]

At the very start of the programme there was a reference by the voiceover man about horses/ponies being taken to receive veterinary care for emaciation and worm burden. We did not see these but it showed that the issue was going on prior to the film makers turning up which is just a small illustration that there is more to this story that 30 minutes of journalism. The would have advised and they would have given him time to improve things.

No one can question his love for the horses and the horror he has experienced in losing his daughter but he is a hoarder and hoarders will not be educated an example was when he took on the 10 extra ones for the short time despite receiving an Animal Welfare Act warning notice for the parasites in his existing herd.

Feeding horses is not enough, they need worming and vaccinating for tetanus as a bare minimum in a herd situation like that and the RSPCA and other welfare groups routinely see horses dying as they have not had this basic care. It would have been an independent vet who said the horses prior to the filming and the one during the filming should be seized and would have compiled the veterinary evidence for caught that made 18 charges of un-necessary suffering.

The RSPCA may not be perfect and were not shown in the best light in the catching scene, but perhaps he could have helped round up that one horse and save it the stress? I would also imagine that looking at the different shades of blue and sheer quantity of people there was at least one another horse welfare charity involved but the focus was the RSPCA as they were taking the prosecution.

You will find they did not comment as it would have been an active case and legally they are unable to comment until the court conclude the case.

 

[spottybotty]

At the very start of the programme there was a reference by the voiceover man about horses/ponies being taken to receive veterinary care for emaciation and worm burden. We did not see these but it showed that the issue was going on prior to the film makers turning up which is just a small illustration that there is more to this story that 30 minutes of journalism. The would have advised and they would have given him time to improve things.

No one can question his love for the horses and the horror he has experienced in losing his daughter but he is a hoarder and hoarders will not be educated an example was when he took on the 10 extra ones for the short time despite receiving an Animal Welfare Act warning notice for the parasites in his existing herd.

Feeding horses is not enough, they need worming and vaccinating for tetanus as a bare minimum in a herd situation like that and the RSPCA and other welfare groups routinely see horses dying as they have not had this basic care. It would have been an independent vet who said the horses prior to the filming and the one during the filming should be seized and would have compiled the veterinary evidence for caught that made 18 charges of un-necessary suffering.

The RSPCA may not be perfect and were not shown in the best light in the catching scene, but perhaps he could have helped round up that one horse and save it the stress? I would also imagine that looking at the different shades of blue and sheer quantity of people there was at least one another horse welfare charity involved but the focus was the RSPCA as they were taking the prosecution.

You will find they did not comment as it would have been an active case and legally they are unable to comment until the court conclude the case.

Like!!^^^^. It was very one sided.

 

[windand rain]

It may even have been better for the RSPCA to remove the mares and return to him a herd of gelding no more breeding he still has horses and his passion for them was obvious even if he did take the mick at their expense. There is a limit to what you should do when dealing with the mentally ill taking them all may well have resulted in his death It has happened before.
Michelle also took in the coloured cobs that were abandoned in south wales so this is by no means her first big "Rescue" I am not sure about the selling policy where you pay a fee and the horse is yours but you cant sell it or dispose of it without their permission or if they are simply sold. If it is the later I would be saddened by that especially as many of the mares in both cases are pregnant

 

[JanetGeorge]

Unfortunately things could escalate at any time, as tho the programme said he had 'moved into an abandoned farm' this is not his, nor is he renting it - he's squatting there. So if/when eviction starts, then there is a bigger problem in moving the horses on.

He was evicted from his tenanted farm in 2009 - as he was letting it go to wrack and ruin and not paying his rent. Different people were trying to help him then - he wouldn't let the horses go as he said something along the lines of: "They are my pension!"

I didn't watch the program as it would have just made me cross! He doesn't deserve sympathy - nor all the efforts that have been made to 'help' him over the years! He laps it all up!

 

[jumpingjasper]

How long was the progamme yesterday? watching on catch up and only 25 mins long? was this the same yesterday?

 

[justforfun]

Possibly going to piss people off (which actually isnt my intention) but I think if I were a horse I would rather live there than cooped up in a stable 23 hours a day overloaded with matching rugs, being kicked and pulled round a sand arena then poked and prodded because I'm not going right for my owner.

BTW I'm no tree hugger and don't follow any NH tribe.

common sence at last.
I have seen some terrible horses at livery yards with no life, over rugged, not ridden, and stabled 23 hrs a day.

 

[justforfun]

vaccinating for tetanus as a bare minimum in a herd situation.

I think this too, yet found a local riding school dont vaccinate!

 

[SusieT]

Am I the only one who could see that the programme was done by producers who wanted to take the alternative view where the man was a poor beaten soul and the rspca and anyone who wasn't 'helping him' run essentially a breeding operation was evil/stupid/incompetent?

 

[fburton]

There are two sides (at least) to every story.

 

[milesjess]

Animal hoarding is actually an illness, it's especially recognised in the states.

I watched it and viewed it from both sides of the story. I remain sat on the fence with it but I do have an ounce of sympathy for him... That's just me and my nature.

It's good to hear he's complying with the authorities but I really hope he gets the help he obviously needs, not just with his horses but with his own life and living conditions.

 

[dressedkez]

I have come late to this discussion - and wondered where it was on the posts (having watched it last night) My initial thoughts was that he was damaged himself, and the horses / ponies did not look that bad, though clearly he was over stocked. The RSPCA trying to sedate the pony was shameful.........he did himself no favours by taking on additional random horses - though the foal that died looked very well, but as we all know, where you have live stock one has dead stock - he was shambolic - his neighbour was clearly trying to help, and I felt that the RSPCA were equally shambolic in thier approach (sledge hammer tactics) I was glad that when it came to Court - that he must have clearly had a Country Magistrate who had some understanding of his lifestyle and his approach to the ponies - so seemed to give him a bit of grace to be a bit more sensible in reducing his numbers. He came across as being fairly out of control - the RSPCA came across of being totally out of control - TV editing of course, but it does make one think about the RSPCA's role? - guys like Clywd are easy? Tackling some real welfare issues issues are less easy? Could the RSPCA be taking the path of least resistence?

 

[fburton]

I haven't watched the programme yet myself, so when I do it'll clearly be without any preconceptions.

He was evicted from his tenanted farm in 2009 - as he was letting it go to wrack and ruin and not paying his rent. Different people were trying to help him then - he wouldn't let the horses go as he said something along the lines of: "They are my pension!"

I didn't watch the program as it would have just made me cross! He doesn't deserve sympathy - nor all the efforts that have been made to 'help' him over the years! He laps it all up!

What do you mean by "laps it up", JG? Does he accept the help he seems by most accounts to need, or reject it? If the latter, in what manner? Or does he actually not need any help? What do you think is the best way forward? Further prosecutions? Someone slip some poison into his tea?

 

[Moomin1]

Hope this may help people come to a more informed conclusion about the matter.

Here is a piece of information from the RSPCA fb site stating the amount of hours spent trying to help this man up to one year prior the making of the film (excuse the quotation format I am rubbish at technology!):

"we were involved over a year before the documentary began to be filmed. We spent 246 man hours in dealing with Mr Davies and his horses, obviously far longer than the information shown in the half hour documentary

The RSPCA decided to prosecute Mr Davies because we had serious concerns not only about his financial ability to look after his horses, but also his physical capability and the layout and condition of the farm.

We only ever prosecute as a last resort and we hoped Mr Davies would listen to advice and improve the welfare of his horses by giving them feed, and by worming and delousing them.

Some horses were signed over to the RSPCA and some improvement in the remaining horses’ care was made, but following two warnings (one of which had its time limit extended), we still had serious concerns about Mr Davies’ ability to care adequately for his horses.

He also refused to answer the RSPCA’s questions, so unfortunately we had no option but to take the matter to court - something people who donate to the RSPCA to allow us to continue our animal welfare work would expect us to do.

The horses were extremely thin and suffering from untreated parasites resulting in protein loss and weakness.

Mr Davies pleaded guilty to animal welfare offences and sentencing was deferred until 12 April 2013 to allow arrangements for the horses to be made."

(End of quote)

Here is a picture of one of the horses Mr Davies had removed from him:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rspca/8365018496/in/photostream


Hope that is of some help to some people.

 

[FionaM12]

I couldn't help feeling sympathy for the man, and the film did show the RSPCA in a very bad light.

However, after I'd had time to think and put my emotional reaction to one side, I realised it was a very biased manipulative film, totally one-sided and clearly only telling a little bit of the story.

I did think I could never have sat laughing eating my lunch when a frightened horse of mine was being chased round and darted. I'd either be trying to stop them or helping for the good of the horse.

If we'd been shown the horses which had already been taken away (such as the one in photo in the link above) and had a statement form the RSPCA about all they'd tried to do so far, it would have told a different story.

Film-makers have their own agenda and it isn't always fairness and honesty.

 

[Moomin1]

I couldn't help feeling sympathy for the man, and the film did show the RSPCA in a very bad light.

However, after I'd had time to think and put my emotional reaction to one side, I realised it was a very biased manipulative film, totally one-sided and clearly only telling a little bit of the story.

I did think I could never have sat laughing eating my lunch when a frightened horse of mine was being chased round and darted. I'd either be trying to stop them or helping for the good of the horse.

If we'd been shown the horses which had already been taken away (such as the one in photo in the link above) and had a statement form the RSPCA about all they'd tried to do so far, it would have told a different story.

Film-makers have their own agenda and it isn't always fairness and honesty.

I think there should always be room for sympathy FionaM12 so nobody blames you for that at all. But of course sympathy has to come to an end after countless attempts at trying to help.

As for it having told a different story, that is exactly the point I was trying to make on the other thread about not jumping to conclusions, just as you were trying to point out too. Shame people are too blinkered to sometimes think outside the box at times.

 

[-Sj-]

I see there's been a facebook page set up with over 6000 people liking the page and now the page is asking for donations of money.

 

[Moomin1]

I see there's been a facebook page set up with over 6000 people liking the page and now the page is asking for donations of money.

Yes I believe so.

Can't say I have actually looked at it though.

 

[FionaM12]

I think there should always be room for sympathy FionaM12 so nobody blames you for that at all. But of course sympathy has to come to an end after countless attempts at trying to help.

As for it having told a different story, that is exactly the point I was trying to make on the other thread about not jumping to conclusions, just as you were trying to point out too. Shame people are too blinkered to sometimes think outside the box at times.

Sympathy doesn't have to end though. People still need help, even if they're not able to care for their animals.

A few months ago I had the heart-wrenching experience of being involved (with an animal charity) in forcibly parting my ex from his 3 adult cats and 7 kittens. He has mental health problems, and wasn't taking care of them. They needed rescuing but he needed help, too.

We can care for both owners and animals. But sometimes the two need parting.

 

[Moomin1]

Sympathy doesn't have to end though. People still need help, even if they're not able to care for their animals.

A few months ago I had the heart-wrenching experience of being involved (with an animal charity) in forcibly parting my ex from his 3 adult cats and 7 kittens. He has mental health problems, and wasn't taking care of them. They needed rescuing but he needed help, too.

We can care for both owners and animals. But sometimes the two need parting.

Sorry, yes I worded that badly, what I meant was that when endless amount of help is given and no improvement takes place, and animals are suffering, then sympathy is not enough any more and further action must be taken.

Hopefully, though doubtfullly, the whole thing may change his life somewhat for the better in some ways.

Would be very interesting what the rest of the posters who thought the whole things was heavy handed and 'guns blazing' and unfair etc etc think now? All very quiet?

 

[fburton]

Hope this may help people come to a more informed conclusion about the matter.

Thanks for the additional information, Moomin1 - every bit extra helps. There's a few things I'd still like to know, and maybe the RSPCA would tell me if I asked, such as...

"we were involved over a year before the documentary began to be filmed. We spent 246 man hours in dealing with Mr Davies and his horses, obviously far longer than the information shown in the half hour documentary

What was the breakdown of that time? What did they actually do?

The RSPCA decided to prosecute Mr Davies because we had serious concerns not only about his financial ability to look after his horses, but also his physical capability and the layout and condition of the farm.

How much did the prosecution cost the RSPCA?

Some horses were signed over to the RSPCA and some improvement in the remaining horses’ care was made, but following two warnings (one of which had its time limit extended), we still had serious concerns about Mr Davies’ ability to care adequately for his horses.

Does the RSPCA consider the condition of the horses shown in the documentary to be indicative of neglect? To my eyes only two or three were worryingly thin, and none 'emaciated'. So were there other horses present at the time of filming that were not shown?

He also refused to answer the RSPCA’s questions, so unfortunately we had no option but to take the matter to court - something people who donate to the RSPCA to allow us to continue our animal welfare work would expect us to do.

Why was not getting answers the key factor in deciding to prosecute? Surely if the horses were objectively suffering, they could go ahead and prosecute anyway?

The horses were extremely thin and suffering from untreated parasites resulting in protein loss and weakness.

Which horses? The ones that were signed over?