Charcoal or Limestone flour

[lynz88]

My guy has been doing incredibly well over the last few months and for once is keeping weight on during the winter but in the past week he has become super grumpy to be groomed - he is worse on the right than the left but he is about ready to snap my head off when groomed which is not like him at all. It doesn't matter where you groom on his body, he is far from happy about it. Putting on his blanket tonight was just downright dangerous as well. At first I thought maybe he has done something silly in the field and is in pain but now I'm thinking gut issues. I'm wondering what might be better - limestone flour (cheap as chips) or, happy tummy has also been recommended but is not cheap? I figure I will give this a try and also physio (1 think at a time though) before heading to the vet.

 

[PurBee]

protexin gut balancer probiotic is often favoured as a first try as its highly helpful in most gut cases, and is around 20 quid for 700grams tub.
Even in cases where it ends up being not a gut issue, some probiotics is always helpful anyway.

Your guy sounds a curious case though, for behaviour to touch to relatively suddenly be an issue, without an overt food change, i would be wondering if parasites are a cause, and/or injury as you mentioned.
Physio sounds like a good plan too.

 

[lynz88]

I agree it is very odd but he is very odd in general - even the vet struggles with him on a good day. I did a feed change about 4 months ago although.....a few weeks ago I think they put him on beetpulp for the winter but doesn't explain his sudden reaction now...

Will look into the protexin though (another one to add to the list!).

 

[PurBee]

I agree it is very odd but he is very odd in general - even the vet struggles with him on a good day. I did a feed change about 4 months ago although.....a few weeks ago I think they put him on beetpulp for the winter but doesn't explain his sudden reaction now...

Will look into the protexin though (another one to add to the list!).

How much beet pulp and is any alfalfa fed too?

Some mention on here their horses have a reaction to beet pulp, although its commonly tolerated in most.
Im personally not absolutely certain why - Nutritionally its high calcium, and high iron. Maybe the high calcium, if not balanced out with oats/grain hard feed, causes behavioural changes/sensitivity in some, especially if fed a fair amount of pulp.

Mine get just 1 kg unmolassed soaked between 2 horses in the winter to add powder supps to, so isnt an amount i worry about the high calcium/iron - but if they were fed each 1kg+ i’d consider adding some phosphorus-heavy feed to balance the high calcium, so there’s no phosphorus leaching from the bones and subsequent potential kidney issues.

If a horse is fed alfalfa too in any amount over 1kg - thats also high calcium, so definitely the addition of beet pulp will swing the calcium/phosphorus balance out, and would need correcting with phosphorus foods.

If the behaviour persists you could experiment with removing/replacing the beet pulp and see if there’s any change.

If he’s normally had beet pulp every winter without issue, i’d discount that as cause. Unless there’s been a change from unmolassed to molassed pulp. The extra sugar can cause live-wire behaviour.

It ferments in the rear gut and there’s the potential that sudden introduction can swing the bacteria out of balance for a while, so again, id use protexin as an aid just in case.

 

[lynz88]

You might be on to something!! He is on alfa a oil and I do wonder if the addition of beetpulp has thrown the balance out of whack. He hasn't previously had any issues with bp BUT he wasn't on anything alfalfa based at the time. I will have the girls remove the bp and see if there are any changes and also give him a course of protexin (though will do 1 at a time to see if I can pinpoint anything) ?

 

[PurBee]

You might be on to something!! He is on alfa a oil and I do wonder if the addition of beetpulp has thrown the balance out of whack. He hasn't previously had any issues with bp BUT he wasn't on anything alfalfa based at the time. I will have the girls remove the bp and see if there are any changes and also give him a course of protexin (though will do 1 at a time to see if I can pinpoint anything) ?

Thats worth a try.
With the amount youre feeding there wont be severe hypercalcemia symptoms occurring, but a mild elevation of calcium is barely noticeable with peeing more and depression being first observed symptoms. The depression may display as irritability to touch, in horses. Although if im down i wouldnt want anyone brushing my body either! ?

Horse ideal cal/phos ratio: 2:1
Beet pulp calcium: phosphorus ratio is 10:1
alfalfa cal/phos ratio : 5:1. (However much of the calcium in alfalfa is the oxalate form, and oxalates block calcium absorption mostly, and high oxalates in the diet have other effects which is why (among other reasons) alfalfa 100% forage for a horse isnt a good choice)
Grass hay is generally around 2:1 ratio.

It sounds like the alfalfa addition didnt cause issue if that was the feed change several months ago, then adding beet pulp in recent weeks could have tipped the scales of cal/phos. Due to the slow change of this mineral imbalance to show outwardly/obviously, you’re only experiencing it now.

If the removal of beet pulp doesnt show change in a week or 2, you could consider the alfalfa as a culprit instead. Far more people on here report their horses not handling alfalfa, being skittish etc, than not handling beet pulp. Alfalfa is a highly nutritious feed, and helps maintain weight, high protein, yet some proteins in it are digested differently than proteins in hay, causing some gut distress. That normally shows rather quickly, within the week.

Fingers crossed the 1 at a time approach helps pinpoint the issue.

 

[lynz88]

Thank you ssooo much. Light bulbs going off in my head now because he hasn't been his cheeky self lately either but we had a stone bruise in the frog a few weeks ago and he wasn't the most comfortable with that (I wouldn't be either). He hasn't been skittish or spooky or anything since his vit e levels were too low in the summer. He's really put me through the mill in the past year but learning all sorts of good stuff ?

 

[PurBee]

Thank you ssooo much. Light bulbs going off in my head now because he hasn't been his cheeky self lately either but we had a stone bruise in the frog a few weeks ago and he wasn't the most comfortable with that (I wouldn't be either). He hasn't been skittish or spooky or anything since his vit e levels were too low in the summer. He's really put me through the mill in the past year but learning all sorts of good stuff ?

He’s a lucky boy to have landed on his hooves with you! My gelding is normally cheeky alert and inquisitive so whenever he stops being like that its a clue somethings going on, and to eagle eye him.
As you say, it’s a learning curve, horses wont ever let us stop learning! ??
Merry christmas! ?

 

[lynz88]

Thanks PurBee. Sometimes I feel like an awful horse mom but I guess this is how we learn! Haven't had any real mineral/vitamin issues until I moved yards which completely different grazing and soil. The challenge is that onset is usually slow so you don't truly notice until something is definitely wrong (though in the back of your head you wonder but aren't quite sure until they really make it known). Have asked the girls to remove the BP and have ordered the protexin so fingers crossed. Hope you've had a merry christmas!!

 

[lynz88]

Bumping this back up. Put said horse Gut Health and didn't see much change at first. Also had chiro out at the beginning of Jan and found all sorts of issues - SI, back, sternum, behind the elbow, etc. Over time he seemed to get better - still grumpy but slightly less so over the weeks and started to stride out more. Figured he injured himself outside. Chiro was back out on Feb 15 and didn't find too much that would suggest any big issues that would need vet attention (I.e. SI injection). He ran out of the Gut Health this week as I had forgotten to buy some (just ran some down today) and today he is Sir Grumps A Lot and even made a fuss with the girls at the yard today. Seemingly huge change from even last week where he was unhappy but could run a brush over him once before he got fed up. He otherwise seems VERY happy in himself. I was just thinking of it now and feel like perhaps the Gut Health is part of the solution but not full solution. Am at a loss because there are zero signs of ulcers or anything....and annoyingly if you tie him up to brush him, he doesn't even so much as put his ears back. Obviously there is an issue.....but am at a total loss.

 

[sbloom]

Ulcers can be seen in the healthiest looking horses. Scoping is quite a trauma for the horse and the gut so I don't recommend rushing into it but you could go for one of the feeding approaches (supplements etc) that many use as a starting point, if they respond well then you can be pretty sure they have ulcers. If you search on here for ulcers I'm sure you'd find what products people are using for this. The Equi Biome test would be a good one to look at too, and I think they have a strong correlation for particular gut population to exist with ulcers, so it's almost diagnostic, IIRC.

 

[lynz88]

Thanks sbloom. It is so hard to tell sometimes with them. My gut is telling me it would be fruitless to scope but I think I am going to chat to my vet. She's seen him on and off and a few weeks ago mentioned how she was keen to see how he would get on with tack and possibly me on top as he seemed to be improving, slowly. I was just about ready to make the plunge last weekend and start him into light work this weekend with a short long line session only to find Sir Grumps A Lot yesterday again. It wasn't until later last night did I think that maybe the gut balancer really was doing something - even if it was taking a while to work - and him being off for a few days or so meant that his gut was irritated again. Even more frustrating as he is on alfa a, high fibre and linseed diet....all which are supposedly supposed to be good for the tummy ??

(And by gut health in my above post I meant the gut balancer)