Charging extra to fill up water buckets?!!?

A contract is a contract but lets be human here, if the job of looking after the horses is taking three times as long because of the most extreme weather in 100 years, then it is not unreasonable of the YO to ask for a small contribution towards that extra work. It doesnt take a definition of 'normal' conditions in the livery contract for peeps to know that now is not normal and couldnt have been anticipated when the contract is drawn up. Its not just winter/summer peaks and troughs, its a winter peak 5x as bad as ever seen for many. And they arent charging for water as such, they are charging for the extra work.

Sure technically one could get on the high horse about it, but the only result will be fewer and fewer livery yards if winters carry on like this, as the already tough winter workload just wont be worth the aggro, the business rates, the liveries demands etc.

I do however think that if someone is prepared to do the job themeselves instead of being charged (and will and can actually do it) then they should be given that chance.
 
I'm with Mithras- I am on full livery and would leave if charged extra for watering during bad weather.

I have had horses at home for years, on DIY for a while and now on full so understand the struggles but imo full livery means exactly that with no extra charges for basics such as providing the horse with water.

My yard have been filling water for weeks now as the automatic waterers aren't working AND dragging water out to the field as the troughs are frozen- of course I appreciate it but imo it comes with the territory of the job in winter.
 
From a YO point of view, we are not charging extra for anything as we have a set fee all year round. However we have gone from automatic drinkers to everything frozen and OH has spent all day everyday just making sure everything has water and hay, once everything has been watered in the morning he maybe has an hours break before it all starts again. We have 1000ltr containers which he takes round on the forklift, but it still has to be bucketed into stables, so not only is it difficult breaking ice filling troughs and buckets its also extra use of diesel and time. His opinion is that it has aged him 10 years this winter. That is all he is doing full stop. Which then puts the extra workload on me as I have no help in the stables, so what normally takes until 10.30am is taking until 1 or 2pm, we are shattered!!!!!

Christmas with family was completely out this year we had a quick visit of an hour to exchange presents and came home again to start evening work!!!!!!!!
 
i understand how hard it might be for the livery owner but there are times in summer when they make more money as the horses are all out on grass but you dont get a refund then so why should you pay more in the bad times.
sorry but i hate when extra costs are added to a deal already made.
you wouldnt buy a t shirt wear it for a month and then be charged another 5 pounds because the shop decided to charge you a differant amount
 
I can appreciate how much harder work it is in the winter - and charging DIY / Part Liveries is fair enough as it is an extra service. It probably also acts as a way of getting people to do it themselves rather than relying on yard owners. I'm sure they get sick of texts saying 'do you mind just chucking a bit more water in his bucket' without realising if everyone did that it could well add a couple more hours onto your day.

However, I certainly don't think its fair to charge full liveries for filling water up. I used to have my horse on full livery and wouldn't be happy paying, as much as I apprecaite how mch harder it is. Mainly because in the summer when my horse was out until 8pm and eating very little hay and hardly any feed, I didn't expect to pay any less.

The winter is much harder with rug changes, frozen water etc etc, but it is offset in the summer when YO's probably save a bit of money and have an easier time.
 
Its this sort of petty ridiculasness that makes me glad I am no longer a YO. It is costing the YO more in both time and fuel to water the horses and manage the yard. Of course they are entitled to charge more for this. Its unusual and extream circumstances. Look at it this way, if you do something for someone and charge £10 but it costs you £6 to do the thing you make £4 profit. If it starts costing you £9 you only make £1 profit. Ego you raise the price. Simples.
 
I'm a groom currently having to drag water containers about, break ice, etc, should I get paid extra? Erm no, its a part of the job. If your YO sees the current weather situation and horses being without water as a money making opportunity whilst the liveries can't even use their horses due to conditions, they are seriously taking the P.

OP, are your full liveries still getting daily work, turnout, rug changes, etc during this weather? If not maybe you should point out to the YO that you ought to be paying less if they want to be petty. :)
 
Flame_ said:
I'm a groom currently having to drag water containers about, break ice, etc, should I get paid extra? Erm no, its a part of the job. If your YO sees the current weather situation and horses being without water as a money making opportunity whilst the liveries can't even use their horses due to conditions, they are seriously taking the P.

OP, are your full liveries still getting daily work, turnout, rug changes, etc during this weather? If not maybe you should point out to the YO that you ought to be paying less if they want to be petty. :)
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I agree with this. Very good point...What jobs are done less during this weather?

I work in a hospital lab and cover an on call service at night. We get paid a set amount no matter how many calls we get. In this weather it has been considerably more (for I got called in from 1am till 2:20 this morning and then called back in again at 6:45! - yet I am still expected to be in work for 9). It is the contract that these are the working conditions - it is occasionally a bonus if I don't get called :) (bit like YO in summer - less work).
 
I think the problem is not so much the extra charge, it is the manner in which it has been communicated.

I think it would be better if the yard had a contract with a "cold weather" surcharge, so if the weather is below freezing for, say, 3 days in a row, each further day below freezint would be charged £1.50 extra for part and full livery. Either that or charge a slightly higher rate all year round to compensate.

I think that DIY should be given the option of either doing the waters themselves or paying.

However, I don't think it's fair that the owner just adds the charge on with little warning. Part of running a business is to think ahead and make sure your charges are appropriate.
 
maxapple said:
I can appreciate how much harder work it is in the winter - and charging DIY / Part Liveries is fair enough as it is an extra service. It probably also acts as a way of getting people to do it themselves rather than relying on yard owners. I'm sure they get sick of texts saying 'do you mind just chucking a bit more water in his bucket' without realising if everyone did that it could well add a couple more hours onto your day.
.
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Crikey whats your definition of a part livery? my charges cover all my basic horse care - I do my own grooming, exercise and tack cleaning (or not at the moment - just grooming!) I also pay for the use of the faciliities - ie school. So, I do not kick up and say I should pay less as I can't use these? so swings and roundabouts and common sense should prevail. Yo can't help the weather so has to work around it, so do I as a livery. When I read comments like some of those posted.. makes me very glad I have stayed at my yard for well over 10 years!
 
Flame_ said:
I'm a groom currently having to drag water containers about, break ice, etc, should I get paid extra? Erm no, its a part of the job.

OP, are your full liveries still getting daily work, turnout, rug changes, etc during this weather? If not maybe you should point out to the YO that you ought to be paying less if they want to be petty. :)
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The YM is currently doing all the work accept the water which the YO is now doing. The YM has still finished the yard by 11am (she starts at 6am) and the water has added no extra time to her work load....It's not the YM who is charging its the YO who is charging the £1.50 because he has to come out of his nice warm farm house and drive his CAT around the yard filling water buckets up.
The charge has suddenly come in to force because the YO is now doing some work...when we had the bad weather earlier this year the YM coped on her own and nobody what charged extra.

However, Full livery at our yard doesn't include daily work, the horses are still being turned out so is still only being mucked out once a day, No hay or Haylege is allowed in the fields so they are just stood there...a turnout rug is just chucked on top of the stable rug so i don't know if that constitutes as a rug change?!!? If the horses are left in then they go on the horse walker while they are being mucked out however your charged £3.50 to use it!!!
 
As I see it the horses that are usually watered by the yard should not have a surcharge imposed, nor should there be a charge for watering the DIY horses if water is not available for their owners to put in.
Now if it was £1.50 a week for the DIY clients as a contribution to the extra costs I could see that as being fair -would cover the fuel used.


I wish I could add a surcharge to my clients -I have no water to the buildings ATM and I'm carrying all the water from my house. Providing water is part of the job.
 
I'm going to start demanding more money for teaching hard kids and maybe my OH should charge for driving in dangerous conditions and having to work harder because people think it's OK to get drunk and have massive fights at home because it's Christmas and the family is together and getting on each other's nerves! Perhaps hospital staff should charge more as they have more work to do dealing with the drunken injuries etc and the poor conditions causing accidents on the road?

It's a bit much, IMO, to charge more. The charges are set and should not be randomly changed without a clause in the livery contracts. I'd be a bit annoyed at being held to ransom and not being forewarned about things.
 
I have been worn out this week defrosting enough buckets and filling troughs and buckets for our own 4, so I can sympathise with YOs who are having to deal with more than that, as most will be.
However I doubt if they charge less in summer when there is less work to do. I'm afraid I think that they are charging for a service within their set charges and the manner of providing that service is immaterial.
Incidentally, to answer a previous point; no I don't get paid extra for working overtime, I'm a teacher! And still maintain that if you charge for a service you should provide that service for that cost, whatever the circumstances. Why can't this YO run a hosepipe from the kitchen? That's how I've been doing our waters.
 
I must be really lucky, don't think my YO would even begin to think about that kind of thing. We all (3 of us) muck in if we are there. Toting buckets is not that hard! And we are at the top of a fell and all the pipes are frozen, with a yard like a skating rink! I personally would not be pleased, but what can you do? If you refuse to pay your horse maybe left with out water, which is a cardinal sin in my opinion.
FDC
 
Notjustforxmas said:
Its this sort of petty ridiculasness that makes me glad I am no longer a YO. It is costing the YO more in both time and fuel to water the horses and manage the yard. Of course they are entitled to charge more for this. Its unusual and extream circumstances. Look at it this way, if you do something for someone and charge £10 but it costs you £6 to do the thing you make £4 profit. If it starts costing you £9 you only make £1 profit. Ego you raise the price. Simples.
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If you are raising the price, you should give the notice period for doing so in the contract. Usually a month if its a monthly contract. Not just raise it ad hoc to suit you. tbh water freezing in winter isn't that unexpected, extreme or unusual. You could argue that the livery shouldn't compensate the YO for their lack of preparedness for winter conditions, pipe lagging, etc. Its not frozen at my yard and its in Scotland. Although I did offer to help out as theres more work due to the ice etc but they said they were happy enough - obviously my yard sees it as their job to do whatever it takes to provide the service in winter weather.

Notjustforxmas - loads of jobs and services are harder to provide in the cold weather. I don't start adding on extra charges willy nilly without proper notice to my paying customers because it takes me longer to provide the service - I'd be too afraid of losing them, and people's finances are not a resource to be stretched indefinately in case I lose out. Its far too arbitrary and has no basis in law unless written expressly into the contract.
 
wrt the OP-I don't think they should be charging extra for filling buckets (and I have worked in livery yards and currently have 3 of my own on pure DIY so I know how much longer it all takes). Horses need water, it's a basic requirement. a surcharge for extra forage is fine IMO because as someone rightly pointed out, margins are small and if liveries paid a fair price for what they got, most couldnt afford it! wouldnt hurt for liveries to help out more where they can though.

but I can't believe some of the comments about the blinkin' cold. it's winter, get over it-we often have the sort of temps some of you people are talking about and atm, we've had this weather since the 25th of November in this part of Scotland and I've been transporting water on a sled for all but 2 days since then. if you are out working in it and still cold then you just arent dressed right!
 
As a YO I am charging for filling buckets etc - each client is paying an extra £10 per week (mon -fri), which includes any/all of the following duties in their abscence:

- Filling buckets twice a day and carrying from house to yard
- Provision of hot water to melt ice etc (no hw on yard normally)
- Getting in or turning out so clients only have to come up once a day
- Topping up hay in field as and when required
- Putting nets in stables in owners abscence
- Picking out ice 'stilts' if bringing horses in
- Picking up fresh droppings so not frozen solid, making poo picking for clients easier

Please note my clients are DIY and were given the option of these services if not able to do them themselves, but have all taken this option with no complaints!

In Shropshire we have had snow and ice for approx 6 weeks - if it had lasted only a couple of days of course I would not have introduced an extra charge and would have done it happily as a gesture of good will. However I am not prepared to do it for free for this length of time and none of my clients would expect me to do so.

When will people accept that a Livery Yard is a business, not a charity?!
 
If a YO cant be bothered to install the water system correctly he should expect to carry buckets of water. I would not pay for this.
 
Sidney, that sounds totally fair, you're charging people for services which they normally do themselves. That's just like them upgrading to part livery for the week.
 
Just a thought... does this mean in harsh weather conditions, grooms will be paid extra? As they have a hell of a lot more to do in this weather, horses in more, drinking and pooing more etc. I bet not.
If you offer a service, take into account what you are providing.
I know of a yard that cuts its own hay, due to the weather this year, they only cut one lot, so are charging the full liveries extra money as they have to buy the hay in now. I think thats a disgrace!
This is not a cheap yard... near £200 a month.....
If you offer a service, with people paying for it, then you need to make sure its there.
Our yard has ground to a halt, we are all in the same boat so are getting on with it.
 
I don't get this, my yard tap is in a totally exposed position so I leave it on slow trickle all the time so it never freezes, and use the water as soon as the clean plastic dustbin under it is full. (e.g. at 8am, mid-day, 4pm, 10pm). I'm only doing water for 3 horses at the moment but tbh I could do with more, I can only just use enough to warrant keeping the tap going all the time without wasting any. Haven't had to bring any out of the house at all.
If I was on a livery yard I wouldn't be at all happy about the water being turned off, that'd worry me more than the additional charge tbh.
 
kerilli said:
I don't get this, my yard tap is in a totally exposed position so I leave it on slow trickle all the time so it never freezes, and use the water as soon as the clean plastic dustbin under it is full. (e.g. at 8am, mid-day, 4pm, 10pm). I'm only doing water for 3 horses at the moment but tbh I could do with more, I can only just use enough to warrant keeping the tap going all the time without wasting any. Haven't had to bring any out of the house at all.
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Same at my yard.
 
Sidney said:
As a YO I am charging for filling buckets etc - each client is paying an extra £10 per week (mon -fri), which includes any/all of the following duties in their abscence:

- Filling buckets twice a day and carrying from house to yard
- Provision of hot water to melt ice etc (no hw on yard normally)
- Getting in or turning out so clients only have to come up once a day
- Topping up hay in field as and when required
- Putting nets in stables in owners abscence
- Picking out ice 'stilts' if bringing horses in
- Picking up fresh droppings so not frozen solid, making poo picking for clients easier

Please note my clients are DIY and were given the option of these services if not able to do them themselves, but have all taken this option with no complaints!

In Shropshire we have had snow and ice for approx 6 weeks - if it had lasted only a couple of days of course I would not have introduced an extra charge and would have done it happily as a gesture of good will. However I am not prepared to do it for free for this length of time and none of my clients would expect me to do so.

When will people accept that a Livery Yard is a business, not a charity?!
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Yes but... your clients are DIY - and your clients must be thanking their lucky stars that you are prepared to offer this extra service - and if I was in their shoes then I would absolutely expect to pay for it. When I was on DIY we did not have that kind of back up and I would have bitten your hand off for help like that (and paid for it!). Anyone remember the last time we had unexpected snow? I physically could not get to my yard (life time hatred of rear wheel drive sierra cars) and was bailed out by my friends at the yard who walked down to sort all out horses out.

And I note - you gave your customers the option...
 
thats rediculous!

MY (lovely) yard owner defrosed all 4 taps round our yard on christmas day!!! were not charged extra!!.....

tell em bog off and get your own water!>...(im DIY) and i do everything myself - that includes fillin gup my buckets!!!! :o
 
I only have one livery, a most unsuitable person to have a horse (a rehomed ex-racehorse) She thinks she does her bit by appearing at eight and leaving the animal about as much haylage that would do it until ten. Same as the water. I defrost the tap for her use but does she use it . No.
The animal gets more haylage and water another twice during the day courtesy of my good nature and when I suggested that she would be paying an extra pound a day she nearly choked. This however did not encourage her to visit it in the evening to ensure it has water for the night.
Some of you livery types might like to walk in a Yard Manager/Owners shoes for a week or so this weather.
 
frozzy said:
I only have one livery, a most unsuitable person to have a horse (a rehomed ex-racehorse) She thinks she does her bit by appearing at eight and leaving the animal about as much haylage that would do it until ten. Same as the water. I defrost the tap for her use but does she use it . No.
The animal gets more haylage and water another twice during the day courtesy of my good nature and when I suggested that she would be paying an extra pound a day she nearly choked. This however did not encourage her to visit it in the evening to ensure it has water for the night.
Some of you livery types might like to walk in a Yard Manager/Owners shoes for a week or so this weather.
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I also have 1 diy, who shares her horse with another.
She was going away on xmas eve & returning on Monday pm, so I said I'd feed horse for her if it helped, at the same time as mine (who are in at night)
Her sharer suddenly was also busy....then on xmas eve, it transpired she had already gone the day before as sharer was doing the morning.....

Guess who has been landed with traipsing up a lot of snow covered fields with barrowing hay/water & feeds twice daily since xmas eve afternoon - also shifting & checking under rugs for it instead of a 2 min check whilst lobbing a feed at it & breaking the ice for her...... :rolleyes: good nature being taken for granted..... :rolleyes:

I will be going to PAY someone else to come in & do mine while I'm away next weekend.

To the OP - if I was on full livery, I'd be pretty pissed off. If on DIY, then its' cest la vie, IMHO :)
 
The Xmas Furry said:
I also have 1 diy, who shares her horse with another.
She was going away on xmas eve & returning on Monday pm, so I said I'd feed horse for her if it helped, at the same time as mine (who are in at night)
Her sharer suddenly was also busy....then on xmas eve, it transpired she had already gone the day before as sharer was doing the morning.....

Guess who has been landed with traipsing up a lot of snow covered fields with barrowing hay/water & feeds twice daily since xmas eve afternoon - also shifting & checking under rugs for it instead of a 2 min check whilst lobbing a feed at it & breaking the ice for her...... :rolleyes: good nature being taken for granted..... :rolleyes:

I will be going to PAY someone else to come in & do mine while I'm away next weekend.

To the OP - if I was on full livery, I'd be pretty pissed off. If on DIY, then its' cest la vie, IMHO :)
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Easy - tell her you are expecting her to your horse on New Years Day normal times...!! OK doesn't sound you are going to trust her to do it... but come on..... you will at least have 5 minutes amusement while she tries to wriggle out of it!
 
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