CHEATING!?!? lol

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esports

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Okay, we have two scenarios, they are real and just wondered what other people think...
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Scenario 1 - An Advanced Medium horse is downgraded to
compete in prelims with group8 rider (and has done a spate of restricted novices), was cleaning up at prelims (75%+), doing NR's respectably, but in NO way cleaning up like at prelim, so group 4 rider employed to take over the ride?! - at Novice! Obviously it is now in Open section due to rider.

Scenario 2 - A horse wins a NATIONAL dressage title (albeit unaff (trailblazers!)) at elementary level, and has been qualifying and competing at the TB FINALS every year for the past 4YRS! - i think it has poss won the novice final previous - but dunno! Then it starts doing BD (same rider throughout), Prelim - and cleaning up! But TBH surely anything which is winning a national title 2 levels higher and has been contesting the finals for many years, should do well.


The theme here - and my bugbear - is I WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO TAKE MY HORSE OUT TILL HE'S 14 (thats quite a way off!) and working AdMed - to be in with a chance of winning a prelim! I just can't see the point anymore! Argh! lol

WHY ISN'T A TRAILBLAZERS FINAL WINNER AWARDED SOME POINTS? IT IS A NATIONAL COMPETITION!! - THEY USE BD TESTS!!!!!!! LOL

I don't think i would be so quick to be paying 15 - 20 quid per class in entry fee's! I think it is unfair on the people that pay unawares, and i think the TB thing is unfair because I think it is a bit off to be using the TB final (some people have no desire to affiliate (might be joining them on renewal
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) and THAT FINAL IS WHAT THEY ASPIRE TO!) using it as some kind of stepping stone because BD don't recognise it as an achievement?! I don't get how advanced event horses are awarded points (thats a different discipline with it's OWN TESTS!!), and there are rules for Grade As in the combined training etc! I just think if the person in scenario 2 wants to do that, then fine, but they should get 30 odd points so are out of prelim, and if want to go back to novices should go OPEN!

Just ask for any national dressage titles other than BD ones, to be declared on entry forms, that way if you choose to omit stuff it;s your choice but your not bending the rules, you ARE cheating!

OH THE STRESS! PASS THE VALLIUM!
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lol calm down samgirl lol 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9...
i'm okay!
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Look at it another way ... scenario 1 ... the resrtricted rider must be pretty cr@p not to be sweeping the boards at novice level (and come to think of it , once downgraded I'm pretty certain they need to compete in open sections anyway and can't qualify for champs).

TBH what you have described doesn't really bother me. At prelim and novice you are well rewarded for an obedient, accurate and correct test, and if you demonstrate this you are well in with a chance of doing well. I have seen time and time again correctly produced average horses beat the flashy ones.
 
lol i am a pool of calm now!
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B&J I do take some gratification in the fact that it doesn't do as good as it should and when they do get it to go well - getting 70%+ - it always seems to come second, lol, i don't think it makes me a bad person! well, maybe a bit lol

I thought that they had to go O but they def did R, but what u reckon the scenario 2 ?
 
Wouldn't bother me either, they have every right to enter the competitions, if they are good then they will quickly upgrade. I haven't been to TB finals but have seen a couple of the comps and the standard wasn't nearly as high as some of the Aff comps

I now feel a bit mean about my earlier comment though. I think everyone is entitled to learn, don't be put off that they are on an AM horse ... if the horse was incorrectly produced or has a bit of temprement to it then it is not necessarily going to be an easy ride.
 
Scenario 1 - please anyone correct me if I am wrong. If the horse has been downgraded from AM for a group 8 rider it will have 40BD points and is therefore ineligible to compete in prelim (max points 37) and also should not be in Nov Restricted because the horse must be in the open section until the section it was competing at? Am I wrong any BD people?

Scenario 2 - Trailblazers is completely unrelated to BD so the horse can win TB year after year and when it registers with BD it will not have any points. Advanced event horses can also switch career and compete in prelim if the owner is eligible.

Scenario 2 is not cheating but scenario 1 is because the horse is competing in a class it is ineligible to enter.
 
thanks sparklet! i'll have to check my rule book, re: the points, because i thought it was bit odd, but it def has won prelims (and taken the prizemoney since being downgraded)!
 
Scenario 1 - no idea as I don't understand BD.

Scernario 2 - I have no problem with this as at all. If people want to compete Trailblazers and be succesful at it so what. Raise your game. I've done TB dressage and got placed and if I can do it anyone can do it.

I don't understand why you can't compete your horse until he is 14.
 
I don't know anything about dressage - can't really understand why someone would want to stay at Prelim (regardless of whether they were winning everything) rather than move up the grades and challenge themselves.

Each to their own I suppose. I'm sure there is a moral high ground!
 
They are not able to do prelim or nov. rest. or qual.on a downgraded horse
Sometimes a more advanced horse will not do that well in prelim anyway.
I find it harder to understand riding club and trailblazers ,people ride at the same level year after year and do not have to move up even if they win.
My 5 year old is scoring 70% + in BD and we have only done enough competition to qualify for summer regionals then stopped competing until they qual. for winter because we don't want to go above novice yet.The points mount up so quickly if you do well, but in riding club we meet the same horses that were winning novice years ago because they never do aff.
In show jumping with a young horse you can do a slow clear and get double clear and qualify without getting money on your card but in dressage a good score gives you points straight away.
 
Just to add fuel to your fire, somebody I know (Young rider squad member) did the TB finals on a pony owned by one of her liverys, and only came 4th! I dont think that they shouldnt compete at the lower levels, but maybe a rule like BE have about Adv riders doing intros would be fairer.
 
I don't understand the rules of BD either, but this sort of thing happens in all Unaff classes except the ones who stipulate 'not to have won x'.

To my mind, people who constantly compete at a much lower level than they and their horse are capable of are just pot-hunters and if they get pleasure out of doing such - then so be it.

But without knowing them you can't know for sure whether there's an underlying problem that makes them feel they need to do less, like the horse being ancient, suffering from leg/foot problems, or rider having terrible nerves. To me, though, that's the point of Unaff comps. That you never have to go out of your comfort zone if you don't want to. For everyone else there's bigger/harder stuff to aim for.
 
tbh i havent a clue what you are getting at...........(and i dont mean that in a rude way, i just dont see what you mean!!)

however if the horse was competing Adv Med and was downgraded, it could get 0 points if downgraded by a group 8 rider - a rider who has no BD points. However if the rider was Group 7 the horse would have to keep 40points.

So that means horse and group 8 rider could compete novice restricted and in prelim classes.

It can also depend on who downgraded the horse at the time and the assement process.

I was (not anymore) looking into getting my mare downgraded for her old sharer, she has 140 BD points, and if downgraded by a group 8 rider she would get 0 points and be able to be competed up the levels again, and in novice restricted.
 
I wonder what satisfaction the rider of an AM horse gets winning a prelim class. Personally, I'd call it pot hunting whether the horse has been downgraded or not. She should be stretching herself a bit more and at least attempting elementary now that htose tests have been dumbed down and sitting trot and shoulder in are not required.
 
yes, but the rider of the horse riding it at prelim level isnt the one thats competed it at advanced medium.

Not many group 8 riders could get on Bloss and get her to even win a prelim, yet i can win an elementary on her, and shes proved herself by winning the Nationals a couple of weeks ago aswell. But with a different rider i doubt she wouldve won. Which has also been proved as her sharer never got over 60% with her at Novice level HC, whereas ive got 70% plus at novice open level on her.
 
I actually think it would be pretty hard to ride an AM horse in a Prelim test. I wouldn't fancy it. LOL.

This horse is used to going in an arena and having a lot to think about.
 
You have your downgrading points mixed up hun - must be all that sucess fuddling up your head lol (well done at the Nats by the way - great to have your piccie plastered all over
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Click linky Group 8 is down to 40 points and group 7 to 60, therefore couldnt do prelims. I am certain the horse has to be ridden in the open section until it reaches the level that the points it was at but cant be bothered to search for that bit.
 
From what I can see the rules on assessment only applies to imported horses and it is the horses level of training which is assessed not the riders.

Someone I know imported a trail riding Spanish horse aged 9 which couldnt canter in a menage let alone a 20m circle - it would have been given 385 points if they registered with BD - its for those type of horses.
 
there is another rule hun!! Where people can downgrade their horse for someone else to compete. For example i was going to downgrade Bloss for her sharer to compete.

At the downgrading the riders AND horses way of going are assessed - trust me, i looked into all this for my old sharer. And also talked about it with my trainer. The assor for my area is Jennie L-C, you go to hers for an 'assement' and she rates the riding and way of going and grades accordingly.

If her riding was particularly bad and she was a group 8 rider than she could compete Blossy in prelim classes and Bloss would have all her points taken away.
 
I don't know the rules inside out, but i thought along the same lines as Sparklet, that the downgrading assessments were INTENDED for imported horses awarded points by default!
The thing what bugs me about it, is the horse has been downgraded for the group 8 rider - but she isn't riding it!!
But PG what is your opinion then on the TB where the horse and rider combination has always remained the same?
 
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yes, but the rider of the horse riding it at prelim level isnt the one thats competed it at advanced medium.

Not many group 8 riders could get on Bloss and get her to even win a prelim, yet i can win an elementary on her, and shes proved herself by winning the Nationals a couple of weeks ago aswell. But with a different rider i doubt she wouldve won. Which has also been proved as her sharer never got over 60% with her at Novice level HC, whereas ive got 70% plus at novice open level on her.

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I agree with you, while Louis isn't overly complicated he is not an easy ride and will take the pee with a rider who is not capable of holding him together. If he were downgraded, and an inexperienced or nervous rider were to take him into a prelim or nervous he would most likely tank them around the arena. This first novice test that Rachelskeff did on Louis he was a complete monkey and tanked her and medium trotted around the whole test...however she got the better of him quite quickly and was prepared for him to be strong the second time did great with him. The fact is he will try it on if the rider isn't "on the ball"
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But PG what is your opinion then on the TB where the horse and rider combination has always remained the same?

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what do you mean by TB?

Jem1 from here has also had her horse downgraded for someone else to compete - where is she when you need her!!
 
I dont wish to argue honest
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- it would be great if you could point me in the direction of the other rule in the rule book though because I know of a fair few people who would be really relieved that they could have their riding assessed and have points removed.

A good friend of mine bought a med horse several years ago and downgraded it, however is sick to death of riding in the open section against all the 'names' and getting nowhere - cant do prelim because the horse was given 40 points. She rang BD and they said she would have to ride as an open rider until she got to medium and she just isnt good enough. She said she would never buy a downgraded horse again.
 
BD rules on downgrading:
DOWNGRADING HORSES
PARTICIPATION, HORSE POINTS, REGISTRATION
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Any eligible rider who takes over the permanent ride on a new horse
can apply to the British Dressage Office, and for a fee of £60, the
horse will be re-graded for them to ride. This must be done before the
horse is competed by the new rider.
Rider Group Points horse will be allocated
Group 8 40 points
Group 7 60 points
Group 6 135 points
Group 5 235 points
Group 4 310 points
Such horses will have their previous points recorded on the computer.
Downgrading applies to an individual horse/rider combination
and is only maintained if the horse is competed by another rider
at the same group as the rider who downgraded the horse, whilst
still registered to the downgrading owner. For example, a horse
downgraded by a Group 7 rider will only maintain its downgraded
status if competed by another Group 7 or 8 rider, or a rider of an
equivalent Group if the downgrading rider upgrades. Should the
horse be sold, or a rider of a higher grade compete the horse, the
horse’s points will be upgraded to the highest number of points
the horse has ever had on its record.
Horses may only be downgraded once in a calendar year. A
downgraded horse will not be eligible to compete in any National
qualifiers or qualify in any way, including Area Festivals within six
months of the downgrading and will lose any current qualifications.
Downgraded horses must be ridden in the Open section, up to and
including the level from which they have been downgraded regardless
of rider group.
Horses may be de-downgraded for a fee of £10 and will revert back to
the highest ever points total (provided this total is higher than the
current points).

Hope this helps!

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No really - thats what I thought happened - PG said there is another rule which removes the points completely for group 8 riders if someone else takes over the ride. I'm really confused now
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If anyone thinks its easy to hop on a advanced horse and get it to do what you want you are sadly very mistaken, it's hard work and they tend to be less forgiving than less "trained" horses.
 
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