marmalade76
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure Mongolian men aren't that big.
Cheeky/ridiculous posts you see on Facebook.
- Thread starter MyDogIsAnIdiot
- Start date
Pretty sure Mongolian men aren't that big.
Cloball
Well-Known Member
I was going to say that 
Mongolian ponies aren't all tiny either. When I went there my guide was on the larger side of average (not a big man) and had a very stout 14.2 pony and this was the only one he would ride for welfare reasons.
Mongolian ponies aren't all tiny either. When I went there my guide was on the larger side of average (not a big man) and had a very stout 14.2 pony and this was the only one he would ride for welfare reasons.
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
There's still a visual "huh" moment. For me anyway!!
Not really the point I was making anyway, more saying compare apples to apples not oranges. When the Icelandic horse population has "wastage" rates like the UK and Europe, from racing, dressage, showjumping etc from horses breaking down skeletally, then I'll maybe think about being more critical
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
I'm sure they are. But they get a rough ride by all this nonsense about them being able to carry more than other horses. Its just not true. I dont need to listen to a podcast telling me different and justifying it, it will just irritate and annoy me. There is nothing special about how an Icelandic horse is constructed. They dont have backs made of reinforced steel. They are exactly the same as other horses. If anyone suggested they put large weights on a dainty 13hand pony they would be told its not acceptable. But if they call it an icelandic then apparently it is. It is not.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
There's still a visual "huh" moment. For me anyway!!
Not really the point I was making anyway, more saying compare apples to apples not oranges. When the Icelandic horse population has "wastage" rates like the UK and Europe, from racing, dressage, showjumping etc from horses breaking down skeletally, then I'll maybe think about being more critical
What are the wastage rates? How many arent sound but it doesnt show up as they only go in straight lines and they dont move like people would expect. A tolt would hide a lot of lameness.
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
Would a tolt hide lameness????
I'm not saying whack an 18st man on one, I agree its probably not true that they're stronger than a regular pony but I am also saying something about glass houses, I think. The 20% rule just isn't a golden one on either side of it and there is more to welfare and maintaining soundness than just a number.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
Id bet a fairly large amount of money that most people wouldnt recognise mild lameness in a gaited horse. I used to ride a standie that no one could tell what she was doing, never mind if she was lame or not.
The 20% rule was found to be the 15% rule. Over 15% horses were found to be in discomfort. Yes its flawed research, but its all weve got. 15% of a small pony is not very much at all once tack is taken into account. Average height 13 to 14hands, average weight 330 to 380kgs accorording to google. Taking 400kgs to be generous, thats 60kgs or 9stone6 and thats before tack is taken into account. Even 20% is only 12st8. So even being overly generous your looking at a maximum rider weight of less than 11 stone. Far less for smaller ponies.
Kirstineridesagain
Well-Known Member
This is why maybe you should listen before making such a broad statement about what you think it’s about. That’s not the point of the podcast at all.
conniegirl
Well-Known Member
Icelandics are hardly dainty little things
Its so flawed that she couldnt even get ethics approval for it. You can drive a bus through the holes in it.
KikiDee
Well-Known Member
There's actually a 4-year study currently ongoing in Sweden about the weight-baring ability of Icelandic horses specifically. It's due to conclude later this year but some of the initial papers are available - the researchers are Denise Söderroos and Anna Jansson.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
at 380 to 400 kgs they are. My heavy weight cob was over 100kgs heavier when he was eventing fit. My LW cob was also over 100kgs heavier when she was eventing fit. They are not by any means a substantial weight carrier. Depsite claims to be something different and special, they are just a small pony.
And that's not true about the research, it was to do with a lie she told when it came to publication and submitting a forged document about a home office licence, not a refusal of ethics approval. And none of that changes that the results were horses showing pain when carrying over 16% of their bodyweight. When thats all we've got to go on, then thats what we should be abiding by.
nutjob
Well-Known Member
It's not known whether ethics approval would have been given, it wasn't applied for. The disciplinary was all about falsifying documents not about any unethical practice in the study.
conniegirl
Well-Known Member
You don't forge ethics approval if you think you would get it. She didnt apply for it because she knew she wouldnt havve been given it due to the huge flaws in the study rendering the data almost useless
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
I have it in front if me, having not looked at it directly in a long time.
The horses were not "showing pain", it was an assessment of lameness and asymmetry. SD's work on the pain ethogram is different. Outside of the ethical problems, it was a pilot study and in its own abstract admits that the results were subjective and didn't not control for saddle fit for the rider which is likely to be hugely influential. The methodology obviously needs more work, the objective analysis correlates with the subjective, but the subjective is the basis of most of the conclusions. The paper openly acknowledges the gaps in the data. Its not just imperfect, it is unfinished. The real letdown in SD's behaviour is that it prevented an actually significant study being competed based on this preliminary work.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
I dont have it in front of me, but didnt she use her pain ethogram and horses with the heavy and up riders were showing pain according to that? And were showing lameness? They stopped the tests in some categories because of it.
Ive not read it for a while and dont have time to start digging today, but I'm sure that was the take away.
Ive not read it for a while and dont have time to start digging today, but I'm sure that was the take away.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
Yes but it was very rudimentary.
I think the crying shame about it is the hypothesis is correct, and had it been done better would have yielded a useful base to build on.
As it is overweight riders for their too small mounts can just quote ‘unethical’ or ‘flawed’ in relation to it. Both of which are true. But it doesn’t make the hypothesis wrong.
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
The ethogram is mentioned but test abandonment was decided on visible lameness (graded 1-8) and "behavioural markers of pain" which aren't graded or specified here. As @ihatework says, its rudimentary and not objective. Though objective statistical work HAS since been done on the pain ethogram. A different paper was the subject of a thread a few months ago that was a lot more rigorous (in my opinion). Anyway, the objective measurements actually used for the analysis were of asymmetry.
Nasicus
Well-Known Member
GFM post on a local page, asking for £300 towards her horses medical bills.
Mentions in her long winded story that she's have an arena built later this year??
Mentions in her long winded story that she's have an arena built later this year??
FieldOrnaments
Well-Known Member
The entire story is absolutely ridiculous, by the sounds of it she effectively had it on free grass livery getting cared for (supposedly) by 'friends' for months, bought another horse in that time, had that horse PTS and only then thought she should go and lay eyes on the gelding, wasn't happy with the state of it and wants Jo Public to pay for it. But it wasn't much better than abandoned
Nasicus
Well-Known Member
Haha, and there was me thinking being very vague with the details might spare her post some recognition!
But yeah, FO is exactly on the money there in regards to the full story, I had to hide the post to save my itchy fingers from typing a scathing reply!
And not to mention, she had a 3rd horse that she could afford to put in full livery!
FieldOrnaments
Well-Known Member
I just googled "gofundme horse vet bill arena built later this year" and it was the first thing to come up 
KikiDee
Well-Known Member
Also are we missing the detail that the horse was TEN MINUTES down the road? So fobbed off unridden horse as a companion to someone with better grazing, bought another horse, didn't bother to go and check on original horse for several months, new horse died, shipped off other ridden horse onto full livery for several months despite having land at home (so cash can't be that short?), has now decided to build an arena and bring both horses back home... finally toddles 10 minutes down the road and goes to collect original horse to find it's been badly neglected and sets up a GFM for its vets bills.
FieldOrnaments
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't describe the images as a badly neglected horse.
Its rug has rubbed and it's dropped condition; if anyone has a few pennies to spare for neglected horses I would encourage them to look at the work of SAFE registered charity.
The GFM gelding has certainly had subpar care but the owner was negligent in not checking on the condition of her animal sooner.
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
Haha, and there was me thinking being very vague with the details might spare her post some recognition!
But yeah, FO is exactly on the money there in regards to the full story, I had to hide the post to save my itchy fingers from typing a scathing reply!
And not to mention, she had a 3rd horse that she could afford to put in full livery!
I too, Googled this and thought the name looked familiar.I just googled "gofundme horse vet bill arena built later this year" and it was the first thing to come up
I'm not in the FB group it was shared in but this person seems to be in another group I'm in often advertising livery spaces and responding to ads for horses for loan. And last year got called out, very rightly so, for asking for volunteers to come work on her 'full livery yard'.
All a bit chaotic/scam-tastic I think?!
ETA - the familiar name thing I think was to do with a companion/non ridden horse I was looking at a while ago linked to a yard I was nosying at re: livery (not hers!) It would take me ages to find it now but fairly sure I found a connection to her somehow and was like 'no never mind, don't want anything to do with that'. That was a mare though so not this horse.
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Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
I googled your phrase and wish I hadn't.I just googled "gofundme horse vet bill arena built later this year" and it was the first thing to come up
The whole set up sounds like a disaster.
I also hate it when people say they have mental health. We all have mental health. Some have good mental health and some poor.
Poor Dave.
FieldOrnaments
Well-Known Member
It's also not a f***ing excuse.... It may be an explanation as to why things are harder but it's not an excuse, especially when animal welfare is at stake.
And if you can't afford £300 in vet fees don't own horses, that's small change!
FieldOrnaments
Well-Known Member
I do fervently believe anyone who owns animals should put in place contingencies for if they should be incapacitated in some way and unable to care for their animals themselves, and also have safeguards around those plans in case something goes wrong (e.g a neighbour is popping round to clean your cat litter and feed but that neighbour has to go into hospital unexpectedly, who feeds moggy now? Kind of thing).
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Oh, I agree. The thought that she's had another, had that PTS, had yet another, put that on full livery, and meanwhile poor Dave has been out in a field, with no one even taking his rug off. Personally, I think it should be reported and Dave removed to someone who is able to care for him. I would allow the authorities to decide if the owner or 'volunteers' are to blame, but someone is.
Crikey, if she can afford to install an arena, I'm sure £300 is affordable!!! Maybe delay the arena??? Have a smaller one???
It's the kind of post where I want Dave here, to be cherished.
KikiDee
Well-Known Member
When my horse died it was under horrific circumstances and broke me in two. I didn’t eat or sleep properly for a long time. You know what I still managed to do? Go and visit my other horse on retirement livery twice a week, take his rugs off and check his condition, drop off bags of feed and make arrangements for any care he needed. I didn’t take any comfort from it and it was a huge chore, I actually resented going there and seeing all the horses and thinking how f***ing unfair it was my beautiful, kind, gentle horse never got to see his retirement. But it was something that needed doing so I did it. I can’t quite compute justifying abandoning the living animals I had because one had died.
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
When Mr Red died, my animals were my first concern. I lived alone then and was worried that, if something happened to me, no one would notice and the animals would starve. Initially, friends and neighbours checked in on me daily, but that wasn't their job, not daily anyway, like a duty.
I had an alarm system installed where a control room was notified by the alarm if I wasn't in bed for midnight! I had three people who would be notified so they could tend to the animals. On New Year's eve, I had to specifically call them with a password to let them know that the alarm would be set late!