Cheltenham Sir Eric...poor horse

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Any death is sad but it seemed to make it worse as he was stood so beautifully while they sorted his shoe.

Those more experienced with breeding do you think the use of so many flat bred horses is contributing to their legs not standing up as well to the more rigorous tests of jump racing? I know they can break legs on the flat and in the field etc but some of them look so fine compared to your Denman types? Obviously I may be completely wrong but are they potentially put at more risk? They would have been on the go from much earlier as well as flat racers usually start at 2.

Thought Invitation Only might get up the fall in itself didn't look completely awful.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I do think breeding has a lot to do with it. Horses are now being bred for speed and stamina. Not conformation. So long as they stay sound enough to do their job who cares if all 4 legs point in different directions. And if it's good enough it will be bred from - and bred for bloodlines again not conformation. Though someone with a horse of awful conformation will more than likely look for one with much better conformation to try to help fix the problems. But they will still be bred from.

Sir Erec is one of the best bred horses to ever go jumping. Well best bred FLAT horses to ever go jumping. He is by Camelot - who is by Montjue. His dam is by Galileo, who is in turn by Sadler's Wells so he is pure flat horse royalty. Jumps horses are being bred from flat stock now. Yeats stayed so he is a jumps sire - and is doing well. He doesn't throw consistent stock though. Bucket Heid was by Yeats - he was a massively built 17.2hh carthorse! His mother was by Classic Cliche. We had a 3/4 sister - by Yeats out of a Classic Cliche who was 15.1hh and very dainty but also quite talented. Sadly she was lost to a field accident. Both were very different personalities too. The filly was a proper little madam and a hell of a scrapper! She loved an eyeball to eyeball fight with another horse on the gallops. Where as the gelding just knew he was superior and got on with his job.

You traditional old jumping sires did a bit of jumping or staying flat races - Silver Patriarch won the St Ledger. Alderbrook was one of very,, very few colts to go jumping and he won the Champion Hurdle. Sir Erec would have been aimed for that next year before heading to stud as hopefully one of a new generation of jumping colts. But alas that was not meant to be.

 

[Mule]

Wasn't it always the case that they were breed for speed and stamina rather than conformation?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Wasn't it always the case that they were breed for speed and stamina rather than conformation?

Yes and the basic conformation is tb's is getting worse and worse. You see some of these horses stood up - cannon bones that go on for a country mile, pasterns that are almost as long as their cannons and at stupid angles. And that's before you get to their attrocious feet and back legs! The French have tried bringing back better build and conformation into jumps horses by outcrossing to Selle Francais and it has worked to an extent.

 

[Mule]

Yes and the basic conformation is tb's is getting worse and worse. You see some of these horses stood up - cannon bones that go on for a country mile, pasterns that are almost as long as their cannons and at stupid angles. And that's before you get to their attrocious feet and back legs! The French have tried bringing back better build and conformation into jumps horses by outcrossing to Selle Francais and it has worked to an extent.

I didn't know about the Selle Francais, that's interesting.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Can anyone explain why a strong, young, fit horse should break a leg like that? Not in a fall or even landing over a fence. I am not having a go at racing - these horses are treated like kings and there are far worse ways to go - but I don;t understand horse breaking legs while just running on the flat. And it seems to happen a lot.

It happens we had one go recently on the gallop, again only 4 years old. Absolutely nothing to warn there could be a problem

 

[Ambers Echo]

This death has saddened me more than most. The way he stood for the farrier like a seaside donkey in the middle of all that noise and commotion moments from racing when adrenalin must have been sky high. At only 4! What a wonderful, calm, trusting temperament. I remember thinking he would have an awesome post racing career in almost any sphere with that talent and temperament. So sad.

 

[tristar]

jumping at speed requires a certain type of horse, strength to withstand the impact of landing at speed for example, a different conformation, the older nh sires were outstanding looking horses with a lot of tb substance

normally you would breed a horse to do a job and put into it the qualities it needs to do that job

 

[bonny]

jumping at speed requires a certain type of horse, strength to withstand the impact of landing at speed for example, a different conformation, the older nh sires were outstanding looking horses with a lot of tb substance

normally you would breed a horse to do a job and put into it the qualities it needs to do that job

You wouldn’t find a better looking horse than Sir Erec in my opinion.

 

[cauda equina]

'Today it was a marvel. Tomorrow, it would be in the bin'
-Alexander Solzhenitsyn

 

[Clodagh]

I can't remember her name but did you see the ugly little scrap of a thing that won the mare's novices hurdle? It didn't look fit to run in a donkey derby, and if she was 14.2 I would be impressed. No doubt she will go on to have plenty of foals.

 

[bonny]

I can't remember her name but did you see the ugly little scrap of a thing that won the mare's novices hurdle? It didn't look fit to run in a donkey derby, and if she was 14.2 I would be impressed. No doubt she will go on to have plenty of foals.

Amazing the Bloodstock experts on here ! I can’t believe you would describe any of the Cheltenham winners like this, do you really believe she could be as you describe and go and win ?

 

[Cortez]

Amazing the Bloodstock experts on here ! I can’t believe you would describe any of the Cheltenham winners like this, do you really believe she could be as you describe and go and win ?

Of course she could; weirdly formed horses win things all the time, just as there are plenty of perfect specimens with impeccable breeding that couldn't move out of their own way.

 

[bonny]

Of course she could; weirdly formed horses win things all the time, just as there are plenty of perfect specimens with impeccable breeding that couldn't move out of their own way.

You believe people with huge bank accounts and a lot of knowledge go to the sales and buy weirdly formed tiny horses, send them to a top trainer at huge cost because they can’t see what you can ?

 

[Clodagh]

You believe people with huge bank accounts and a lot of knowledge go to the sales and buy weirdly formed tiny horses, send them to a top trainer at huge cost because they can’t see what you can ?

I imagine she is impeccably bred.

 

[Cortez]

You believe people with huge bank accounts and a lot of knowledge go to the sales and buy weirdly formed tiny horses, send them to a top trainer at huge cost because they can’t see what you can ?

No, I believe know (actual facts back this up) that there are plenty of small horses, and horses with less than perfect conformation, and with ordinary breeding, that win races. And there are even more horses with fantastic breeding and/or wonderful conformation that can't run their way out of a paper bag.

 

[Clodagh]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageser...11e9-bfd2-5b366418ffd1.jpg?crop=4019,2679,0,0

Possibly an unfairly unflattering photograph, and doesn't show her legs but really?

 

[bonny]

If it was just about breeding it would easy !

 

[Clodagh]

Amazing the Bloodstock experts on here ! I can’t believe you would describe any of the Cheltenham winners like this, do you really believe she could be as you describe and go and win ?

I am not sure where I said I was a bloodstock expert, I just thought the mare was not a prime example of breeding stock.

 

[WandaMare]

I can't remember her name but did you see the ugly little scrap of a thing that won the mare's novices hurdle? It didn't look fit to run in a donkey derby, and if she was 14.2 I would be impressed. No doubt she will go on to have plenty of foals.

I don't like to hear any horse being referred to 'the ugly little scrap of a thing'. Surely the horses who push themselves to the limit and show so much courage at these type of events deserve more respect than this, even if their appearance doesn't tick all the right boxes?

 

[tristar]

i thought the solzhenitsyn quote was about a human having a cancer op.?

``handsome is as handsome does``good looking does not mean he had bred into him the qualities to be a n h horse, functionality is the where the true beauty of the nh horse lies, the proportions, tenacity to survive coupled with speed and endurance and the ability to jump at speed

sir erec had a shoe replaced moments before, lots of maybe`s here? was the foot injured in some way by the loss original shoe? did the new shoe come off and move across the foot and prick him? did the opposite foot tread on the new shoe?, is it a good idea to immediately put a horse in top race after replacing a shoe and not trotting the horse up on hard ground to verify its 100 per cent?

 

[bonny]

i thought the solzhenitsyn quote was about a human having a cancer op.?

``handsome is as handsome does``good looking does not mean he had bred into him the qualities to be a n h horse, functionality is the where the true beauty of the nh horse lies, the proportions, tenacity to survive coupled with speed and endurance and the ability to jump at speed

sir erec had a shoe replaced moments before, lots of maybe`s here? was the foot injured in some way by the loss original shoe? did the new shoe come off and move across the foot and prick him? did the opposite foot tread on the new shoe?, is it a good idea to immediately put a horse in top race after replacing a shoe and not trotting the horse up on hard ground to verify its 100 per cent?

He certainly had what it takes to be a top hurdler but there is a suggestion now that there was something wrong in that leg before the race. He had been lame, the yard were concerned but it all pointed to a stone bruise and he was treated for that. It’s pointless having hindsight now and horrible what happened but it does look like that could be what went wrong although we will never know for sure.

 

[tristar]

talking about breeding lots of foals i recently read a few books about the lives of famous horses, one mare who won lots and bred two of the best stallions around, bred 11 foals and died at 20 just a few after delivering her 11th foal, the owner was devastated.

it would have been nice to see that mare retired for her remaining days earlier, can a thing as fragile as tb be expected to carry and deliver so many foals?

so many questions in the horse world, what about gratitude for what she had already achieved, the pleasure of owning such a wonderful mare for its own sake.

 

[Mule]

He certainly had what it takes to be a top hurdler but there is a suggestion now that there was something wrong in that leg before the race. He had been lame, the yard were concerned but it all pointed to a stone bruise and he was treated for that. It’s pointless having hindsight now and horrible what happened but it does look like that could be what went wrong although we will never know for sure.

I wouldn't say it's pointless if we can learn from it. (By we, I mean all horse people/ vets etc)

 

[DD]

have just read on facebook that another horse Invitation Only has died racing at Cheltenham. Time to BAN RACING.

 

[JanetGeorge]

have just read on facebook that another horse Invitation Only has died racing at Cheltenham. Time to BAN RACING.

Yeah - and how many horses would THAT kill?? Or - even worse - see them in poor homes - or 'retired' to a field to be ignored and suffer mud fever and much worse. And you would't be fussed abot the jobs (and homes0 that would be lost. Horses die every day of the week - usually far more slowly and with far more suffering than a racehorse at the track. Maybe we should have NO horses at all - ruddy things get cas and break a leg, or die of colic after costing the owner a LOT of money.

 

[Snowfilly]

While I feel sad for the horses who died at Cheltenham over the meeting, I feel considerably worse for the poor starving foal who was found in a ditch near me last week. He was cold and dead, looked like he'd never had a good drink from his dam and died horribly.

No-one wants to see a horse die and we should look into causes and ways of making racing safer. But I wish we could get the same outrage going about the nameless scrub horses who never make it into the papers, and who spend their whole life as welfare cases instead of just the end.

 

[cundlegreen]

You believe people with huge bank accounts and a lot of knowledge go to the sales and buy weirdly formed tiny horses, send them to a top trainer at huge cost because they can’t see what you can ?

saw a filly go through the select NH sale at Cheltenham two days ago. She was described as having one tendon larger than the other. She was 4 years old and had won her PTP. She made 150,000. I wouldn't have wanted to take a risk on her.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

In racing the conformation isn't first priority. Speed is. So long as a horse can win a race it's conformation doesn't matter. Sadler's Wells was pigeon toed - would you ever suggest not breeding from him? They aren't show horses, they aren't there to look pretty, they are there to gallop and to jump. Yes conformation helps keep a horse sound but it doesn't make it a good horse. Some of the weirdest put together horses have been some of the soundest! Size isn't everything either. Katchit and Binocular are tiny yet they both won Champion Hurdles, Tiger Roll isn't the biggest but he has won over fence and the biggest fences of them all - Aintree!

Head, heart and determination is what is needed to win races. Not looks.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It helps, though, if they have straight legs which don't shatter in use?

Did Sadler's Wells pass on his pigeon toes to his descendants?