Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
^^^ Always useful for everyone concerned to be aware of the breadth and weight of opinion. That's how things change (or stay the same).
Cheltenham Thread
- Thread starter humblepie
- Start date
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
Possibly another thread, and i know there are things being implemented/research done but I'm thinking about F1 and how even if there are heavy crashes, the drivers are generally able to walk away unscathed, due to all the work that has gone into safety. I was born in the 90s, so only what ive seen/read about but the early 90s and before were extremely dangerous for drivers of f1 cars, and there were deaths
Now thanks to all the safety implementation (I think a huge amount of work was done by Prof Sid Watkins, following Senna's death) drivers can walk away from crashes that probably would have seriously injured or killed them. However this is due to changes to the cars themselves and the barriers etc, which of course cant be done in racing as the horses are the "cars" so take the impact themselves
Im sure i read an article that said about them testing heart rate monitors on the horses on the gallops. People's sports watches can tell them if their heart rate has gone bad, so what about designing something like that for racing and using it on all horses on all races? Maybe then there will be early detection if something is going wrong.
Id also rather see a horse be pulled up if the jockey doesnt feel its right, just in case but again you then have the issues with huge bets being placed and this being questioned.
Now thanks to all the safety implementation (I think a huge amount of work was done by Prof Sid Watkins, following Senna's death) drivers can walk away from crashes that probably would have seriously injured or killed them. However this is due to changes to the cars themselves and the barriers etc, which of course cant be done in racing as the horses are the "cars" so take the impact themselves
Im sure i read an article that said about them testing heart rate monitors on the horses on the gallops. People's sports watches can tell them if their heart rate has gone bad, so what about designing something like that for racing and using it on all horses on all races? Maybe then there will be early detection if something is going wrong.
Id also rather see a horse be pulled up if the jockey doesnt feel its right, just in case but again you then have the issues with huge bets being placed and this being questioned.
pistolpete
Well-Known Member
Brilliant idea and wouldn’t be that hard surely? Horse garmins. They don’t just gallop happily one minute then drop dead. Surely there are clues about the state of their heart CV systems?
Orangehorse
Well-Known Member
Well unfortunately they do sometimes gallop happily one minute and then drop dead. Sometimes they die in mid-air over a fence. Given warning a jockey would pull up. Horses die on the gallops, on cross country, out hunting, and I knew of a 12 year old event horse that was being exercised over a practice fence that just died, trapping the rider. Those of us old enough remember Wide Awake at Badminton, having just won the competition, died on his victory lap in the main arena. They weren't in their stable resting, but they were fit horses do exercise that they were prepared for. Sometimes it just does happen.
myheartinahoofbeat
Well-Known Member
This is appalling. Beyond comprehension in fact.Not a good look at all, should be a longer ban
Amateur rider handed 12-day ban after failing to pull up tired horse in final-fence drama at Fakenham
Amateur rider Charlie Marshall was handed a 12-day ban for continuing on a horse who appeared to have no more to give after an unedifying finish to... Read Morewww.racingpost.com
(Not at Cheltenham)
myheartinahoofbeat
Well-Known Member
I agree with you. I’ve grown up watching horse racing, going to Pto P as a kid, obsessed with Red Rum and the GN( I’m that old) anyway now I don’t have the stomach for it. Like you, I love TBs, I have one at home. I said I wouldn’t watch Cheltenham this year because of the possible deaths but I can’t resist watching the thoroughbreds just doing their thing. However, I no longer think it’s acceptable to have a sport where the animals can die as a result of it. Have I been enlightened, educated, not sure but I’m certainly troubled by it now unlike I used to be. If it was greyhound racing, would the public accept that many dogs dying, I don’t know.i think racing has a real problem, I don’t think the number of deaths is increasing, they keep telling us it’s getting safer but days like today are an absolute tragedy. They can’t keep putting this on TV and trying to justify it.
pistolpete
Well-Known Member
It’s just such a high price to pay. I know they can have aneurisms and sudden onset issues but it just seems too much.
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
The horse was so good to try and jump/clamber over the fence despite being so exhausted he could barely move. Got a smack a few strides before as well
12 day ban is paltry
Gamebird
Well-Known Member
Actually, unfortunately for the type of sudden death we saw yesterday, there is very very little notice at all. Horses have dropped dead in similar circumstances whilst wearing ECG monitors and there can be abnormalities seen for a handful of seconds before death occurs. And seeing it is one thing, but unfortunately doing anything about it is completely impossible. There is no treatment than can reverse the chain of events, even if a team of cardiac specialists were standing next to the horse at the time it happened.
I don't know whether it has been confirmed yet or not for Envoi Allen, but most of these sudden deaths aren't actually directly heart problems anyway - they are usually major vessel ruptures. Many Clouds, who died at Cheltenham in similar circumstances, had a rupture of a large pulmonary blood vessel.
The heart monitor trials are really interesting, and should provide some vital information which will help reduce morbidity and mortality, but not for these horses with acute large vessel rupture.
That doesn't mean though that there isn't research going on in this field too. One of the benefits of betting in racing is that there are large levies which produce substantial funds for research - far more than any other horse sport could dream of.
Every single runner at Cheltenham (and actually now a large percentage of all UK races, flat and jump) has its heart listened to by a BHA Veterinary Officer before running, and any horse which runs below expected form will have it listened to again directly after racing whilst abnormalities such as atrial fibrillation will still be detectable. That is something which didn't happen even 10 years ago. Everyone appreciates that some arrhythmias only occur under stress/peak athletic endeavour, but hopefully a lot of the rest are being picked up before horses run.
It would be easy to say 'no runners over 11 years', but I think if we're going to do that we do need to run the statistics and find out whether age actually presents an increased risk. And is that linked to chase vs hurdles/distance/going/grade of race? You could say 'no horses over 10 to run distances over 3 miles', but again the longer distances tend to be run slower, so is that actually safer? It should definitely be looked at (and I can almost guarantee that it will be) but the statistics might end up producing a different outcome to the one which seems most obvious.
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Ditchjumper2
Well-Known Member
Gamebird as always speaks total sense. I have had a horse collapse on return from a normal sedate hack due to heart issues. He was well looked after, regularly checked by vet etc. Like with humans these things happen sadly. He was relatively young too.
There are so many variables in racing I think it would be hard to impose. Generally "people" hate seeing horses slogging away in the mud but generally those falls are often more forgiving because they are not travelling at speed. Good going, and a sunny day and those same "people" think it is marvellous yet the better the going, the faster the speed, the greater the risk.
There is a risk in everything we do, in everything that horses do, it's life. However racing does its best to minimise the risks but you can never remove it. One has to be realistic and I am sure most people on here, if truly honest, have made decisions they maybe regretted.
If Envoi Allen had collapsed on the way to the start would that have made it better? Or it had happened at home in the field? The outcome would always be the same.
Sometimes one needs to be realistic and pragmatic, but it doesn't mean you don't care.
There are so many variables in racing I think it would be hard to impose. Generally "people" hate seeing horses slogging away in the mud but generally those falls are often more forgiving because they are not travelling at speed. Good going, and a sunny day and those same "people" think it is marvellous yet the better the going, the faster the speed, the greater the risk.
There is a risk in everything we do, in everything that horses do, it's life. However racing does its best to minimise the risks but you can never remove it. One has to be realistic and I am sure most people on here, if truly honest, have made decisions they maybe regretted.
If Envoi Allen had collapsed on the way to the start would that have made it better? Or it had happened at home in the field? The outcome would always be the same.
Sometimes one needs to be realistic and pragmatic, but it doesn't mean you don't care.
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pistolpete
Well-Known Member
But if they collapse during or after a hard race surely the cause is clearer? I know horses can be very fragile but every NH meet something dies. Is that ok then?
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
Everything dies eventually but do they have to die, or even be mildly stressed, in the process of entertaining people? There is a point at which we find that unacceptable, and it isn't always the same point either for individuals or for society as a whole, which is why animals being used in entertainment has been restricted in the past and may be further restricted in the future.
bonny
Well-Known Member
I imagine just about all horses are mildly stressed on a daily basis!
Ditchjumper2
Well-Known Member
I didn't say it was OK tbf, I just think that you cannot take stuff in isolation. I hate seeing the deaths too. One of the reasons I stopped going to my local pt to pt for a while was that there were so many deaths at one meeting the knacker wagon was full and they were being dumped in the wood. That did and still does haunt me.
But just because you care doesn't mean you want it all stopped. Where do you draw the line? If you take a horse out of the field and its mates are galloping about aren't they stressed? Does that mean we don't do that? There has to be a sense of realism too, and a balance.
Or do we get rid of all animals as at some point in their life we will stress them. Yes that's an extreme but that's why it's a case of be careful for what you wish for.
Racing has improved, and it will continue to improve, but you will never stop the fatalities because in life, with everything there is always an element of risk.
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Janique
Well-Known Member
People are saying that racing is here to stay, well maybe for the next few years but things are slowly changing...
The general public is more aware and with social media, welfare is also getting better.
People are asking questions, voicing their opinions, they are not just betting and drinking like idiots, they seems to have come to their senses, well some of them anyway...
and many young people think that the sport is outdated and no longer interesting.
In a way, that jockey nearly carrying an exhausted horse over the last fence is good because more people can see what really racing is...
I guess, the more horses dies, the quicker changes will come ?
Changes are too slow and too many horses dies but I am still hoping that one day, maybe not in my life time, horses will be better treated
and not considered like disposable tools to make money.
The general public is more aware and with social media, welfare is also getting better.
People are asking questions, voicing their opinions, they are not just betting and drinking like idiots, they seems to have come to their senses, well some of them anyway...
and many young people think that the sport is outdated and no longer interesting.
In a way, that jockey nearly carrying an exhausted horse over the last fence is good because more people can see what really racing is...
I guess, the more horses dies, the quicker changes will come ?
Changes are too slow and too many horses dies but I am still hoping that one day, maybe not in my life time, horses will be better treated
and not considered like disposable tools to make money.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
The fatalities resulting from jump racing can be stopped by banning it, as some states in Australia have done. No more fatalities. Is the improvement you mention in racing in terms of injuries and deaths? I don't have any knowledge of the historical figures, or when statistics began to be kept.
'A sense of realism' here is being leveraged in support of no change, I feel. I can draw one line very easily and that's public entertainment. That's pretty cut and dried. No one is denying that stress is a (necessary in some ways) part of life, but a lot of efforts normally go into alleviating chronic or unwarranted stress, which makes it feel disingenuous to argue that it's suddenly ok for a horse to be a bit stressed now and then purely in pursuit of a good time for humans.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
Avoidably or unavoidably? Is that fact that stress is a part of life for any organism sufficient justification to cause it for essentially trivial reasons (humans' pasttimes)?
Chianti
Well-Known Member
Yes, it has annoyed me. I get very cross when people make arguments like this in support of racing. If we like to think of ourselves as an animal loving society then neither of these is acceptable in the 21st century. We know now that the old 'they live like kings' band wagon is not correct. They don't want to live like kings but like horses. Making an animal run and jump - basically in a panic - for sport should stop. If four dogs had died at Crufts there would be outrage but as it's horses they are just a statistic. I used to love racing and would take a week's leave to watch Cheltenham. Like many horse sports I now can't bear to have it on the TV.
bonny
Well-Known Member
We have horses purely for our pastimes, they literally wouldn’t exist otherwise
reynold
Well-Known Member
HORSE PWR - The Facts
British racing’s hub dedicated to the Thoroughbred racehorse, the ultimate equine athlete.
On that page are the official statistics on all racing, flat and NH under the 'Injuries and Fatalities' section
These are the official 5 year rolling figures - a counter to the figures put out by the 'antis'.
There is a lot of information on the horsepwr.co.uk website about racing in the UK.
pistolpete
Well-Known Member
I suppose the honest truth is if we ride then we are hypocrites to an extent but the jump racing in particular seems so harsh.
pistolpete
Well-Known Member
That’s really interesting thank you. Soft ground is best then for survival.HORSE PWR - The Facts
British racing’s hub dedicated to the Thoroughbred racehorse, the ultimate equine athlete.horsepwr.co.uk
On that page are the official statistics on all racing, flat and NH under the 'Injuries and Fatalities' section
These are the official 5 year rolling figures - a counter to the figures put out by the 'antis'.
There is a lot of information on the horsepwr.co.uk website about racing in the UK.
Chianti
Well-Known Member
So - 192 horses died last year as a result of racing? That's 3.69 horses per week. That's nearly one every other day. Just so people can have a day out and have bet? RSPCA have said this year it's 24 so far. As I've said before on this forum if it was any other animal in any other circumstances it would be stopped. I suppose that thinking this makes me an 'anti'.HORSE PWR - The Facts
British racing’s hub dedicated to the Thoroughbred racehorse, the ultimate equine athlete.
On that page are the official statistics on all racing, flat and NH under the 'Injuries and Fatalities' section
These are the official 5 year rolling figures - a counter to the figures put out by the 'antis'.
There is a lot of information on the horsepwr.co.uk website about racing in the UK.
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
So there is no need at all to reassess how we use them or what is acceptable to expect of them, then?
Marshpiper
Well-Known Member
But you cannot make them race, there are many examples of racehorses who have said no Thankyou, not once maybe two or three times…Gamebird will probably be able to remember their names, I just cannot at the moment..
Those 4 animals I spoke about never had a moment of care from the moment they were born until they died…
You and all others who would prefer racing to stop, of course are entitled to your opinion…
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
Neglect and what it's ethical to ask horses to do in the name of sport are two separate issues. One is already illegal, for one thing. I used to think horse sports were a perfectly reasonable thing to ask of a horse but I've come to question that and I think it's something everyone should think about now and then - whether what we expect them to do for us is truly reasonable, when they would not chose to do it on their own.
Some horses will absolutely say no (and let's hope they end up in a decent home, and not with a replacement microchip and on a lorry to the continent as a result of having an opinion) but the whole point of training (and running them in a group, in the case of racing) is to circumvent their wishes. It's not as if it's their dearest wish to run at Cheltenham. Just because we can train them to do a thing doesn't necessarily mean we should.
bonny
Well-Known Member
It’s such a weird argument …..what do you think a horses dearest wish is then ?
Marshpiper
Well-Known Member
I am just back from fence judging at our first event(well actually a two phase, no dressage) watching horses/ponies all ages, shapes, sizes, colours, out in a glorious venue, think sea and mountains….apart from one (
) all equines and riders
seem to be enjoying every minute….
I would hate to think that this sport could be the next one to be put under a microscope……
) all equines and riders seem to be enjoying every minute….
I would hate to think that this sport could be the next one to be put under a microscope……
Burnttoast
Well-Known Member
Weird is thinking that a horse, a social prey animal evolved to spend most of its life eating and hanging out with its conspecifics, wants to do what humans want to do.
bonny
Well-Known Member
Shall we let them all live wild then ?