Cheltenham Thread

Marshpiper said:
Those 4 animals I spoke about never had a moment of care from the moment they were born until they died…
You and all others who would prefer racing to stop, of course are entitled to your opinion…
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you keep bringing these 4 ponies up but I'm not sure what their relevance to horses having to be PTS through racing accidents is. You've lost me there. You have read about these 4 but have you done anything.

of course people are entitled to their opinions about racing and any other equestrian activities.
My opinion is that we are now asking far too much of horses which is totally for human enjoyment. Racing being one and we don't have to look very far for elite dressage, elite endurance is another and I suppose we could go on.

Marshpiper said:
….
I would hate to think that this sport could be the next one to be put under a microscope……
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. that is exactly what it is sport for human enjoyment. If people want to indulge in sport for enjoyment with a motor bike or racing car or on foot no problem. I think it is starting to get to the point that we should start questioning the animals position in this. Sport is there to produce winners. No one is interested in the losers the higher up the sport the more the competitors are pressing to win. In the case of equestrian sports that includes their partner which is the horse. I think we need to lower our sights considerably as to what we expect from horses and their management.
 
paddy555 said:
you keep bringing these 4 ponies up but I'm not sure what their relevance to horses having to be PTS through racing accidents is. You've lost me there. You have read about these 4 but have you done anything.

of course people are entitled to their opinions about racing and any other equestrian activities.
My opinion is that we are now asking far too much of horses which is totally for human enjoyment. Racing being one and we don't have to look very far for elite dressage, elite endurance is another and I suppose we could go on.



.
If I had seen those horses yes I would have as you put it done something as I have done for the horses I did see, it is a continuous battle to get abused horses looked at by authorities, local members of parliament, welfare organisations, it is soul destroying….
I am not going to post on this thread anymore.
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Burnttoast said:
It's got to be all or nothing for you, hasn't it? There is something between exploiting non-consenting sentient animals for fun and just setting them free to be killed on the roads. Maybe you don't like horses all that much after all.
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Have you been on a night out by chance ?
 
Marshpiper said:
But you cannot make them race, there are many examples of racehorses who have said no Thankyou, not once maybe two or three times…Gamebird will probably be able to remember their names, I just cannot at the moment..
Those 4 animals I spoke about never had a moment of care from the moment they were born until they died…
You and all others who would prefer racing to stop, of course are entitled to your opinion…
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Have you ever watched horses at the start being dragged into the starting stalls? Blindfold on, walked around until they don't know what direction they're facing. Pushed and pulled. If they loved racing then surely they'd march into the stalls? In jump racing they run because the herd is running. It's a survival instinct. Just as if one horse in a field senses something and goes then the others in the field will follow. The horses that died from neglect is horrific but haven't there also been cases where ex race horses have been found in similar conditions? Frankie Dettori rescued one of the horses he'd one big races on because he found it in a terrible condition. They don't all go on to lead happy retired lives.
 
Chianti said:
Have you ever watched horses at the start being dragged into the starting stalls? Blindfold on, walked around until they don't know what direction they're facing. Pushed and pulled. If they loved racing then surely they'd march into the stalls? In jump racing they run because the herd is running. It's a survival instinct. Just as if one horse in a field senses something and goes then the others in the field will follow. The horses that died from neglect is horrific but haven't there also been cases where ex race horses have been found in similar conditions? Frankie Dettori rescued one of the horses he'd one big races on because he found it in a terrible condition. They don't all go on to lead happy retired lives.
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Have you ever watched people trying to load a reluctant horse into a trailer/lorry ? Now imagine you’ve got up to 20 young horses all needing to go in quickly and then maybe you might understand the problem !
 
Chianti said:
Have you ever watched horses at the start being dragged into the starting stalls? Blindfold on, walked around until they don't know what direction they're facing. Pushed and pulled. If they loved racing then surely they'd march into the stalls? In jump racing they run because the herd is running. It's a survival instinct. Just as if one horse in a field senses something and goes then the others in the field will follow. The horses that died from neglect is horrific but haven't there also been cases where ex race horses have been found in similar conditions? Frankie Dettori rescued one of the horses he'd one big races on because he found it in a terrible condition. They don't all go on to lead happy retired lives.
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Agree that what happens to too many ex racers and thoroughbred wastage is a huge concern, a worse welfare issue than the actual racing.
Like a lot of posters, I now find it difficult to watch or think about the falls, some of which must be due to ageing caution, I now know just how difficult it is for bodies to recover from crashing injuries, just how difficult to watch and nurse damaged animals round. But I love to see TBs doing what they are designed for - speed, athleticism, running altogether - not many leisure horses, kept in bits of muddy space by people who daren’t ride outside a manège, ever get to enjoy that.
My personal, illogical, compromise is to watch hurdling, but jump racing either on repeat or through my fingers. Actually, as a non-competitive oldie, I now get more pleasure watching ‘home schooling’ segments on tv coverage than the races, but wouldn’t deny either the horses or supporters theirs.
 
bonny said:
Have you ever watched people trying to load a reluctant horse into a trailer/lorry ? Now imagine you’ve got up to 20 young horses all needing to go in quickly and then maybe you might understand the problem !
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They only ‘need’ to go in quickly because they are racing and we don’t want delayed starts to annoy tbe betting obsessed punters and the bookies, do we.

You are arguing yourself into to a hole.

How self professed horse lovers can continue to follow live racing knowing that they will be witnessing multiple equine fatalities escapes me.

As I post each time, after a death there is the briefest possible ‘sadface, tears and regrets’ from the racing die hards, then the excited chatter resumes for the next races.

I’ve grown up, I used to be a fan of racing too.
 
Interesting that one of those 'reluctant' racehorses - Teddy Blue - ran yesterday at Kempton.

He planted at the start a little and was led in by hand (nothing else was done to him) and then proceeded to run well, jumping well and winning the race. If he was that reluctant there was always the option to refuse at the fences.

We're bad enough as humans at reading other people, many with mental health issues. How can we actually KNOW what is going on in a horses head?

As regards the starting stalls they don't seem to have the same problems in either France or the USA. The difference is that in other countries the stalls are wider. I'm old enough to remember when our starting stalls were first brought in and they were designed so that they could be legally towed on the roads of this country.

This led to them being significantly narrower than those abroad. The UK stalls are 35.4 inches wide and those in the USA are 45 to 50 inches wide - much bigger.

Yes the horses are blindfolded and 'heaved' into the stalls when necessary, however there is a time limit for the stalls handlers to try loading a reluctant horse and if they refuse for too long (5 mins-ish) then they are led away and declared a non-runner. Horses that prove consistently difficult to load and/or declared non runners due to stalls issues have to undergo a 'stalls test' before being allowed to run again.

In contrast to that 5 mins trying I've seen many cases of horses at all sorts of shows from Pony Club to BD refusing to load and being hit, shoved, pulled around for anything up to several hours. At Windsor sponsored ride one year someone's horse refused to load and was lined up between 2 polo lorries at the end of the day and beaten back onto the particpants lorry by the polo people using polo sticks. I didn't witness it but it was one of the others at the livery yard I was at then - and the horse's owner thought it was 'funny' and told the tale 'proudly'.

Not all abuse is centred around racing.
 
These endless arguments always end up so full of crap!
One side, who admit in other threads they don’t really think horses should be ridden any more v those who think that we have dominance and should fill our boots. Also with a bit of ‘well, donkeys in Egypt have it worse.’

🤦‍♀️
 
reynold said:
Interesting that one of those 'reluctant' racehorses - Teddy Blue - ran yesterday at Kempton.

He planted at the start a little and was led in by hand (nothing else was done to him) and then proceeded to run well, jumping well and winning the race. If he was that reluctant there was always the option to refuse at the fences.

We're bad enough as humans at reading other people, many with mental health issues. How can we actually KNOW what is going on in a horses head?

As regards the starting stalls they don't seem to have the same problems in either France or the USA. The difference is that in other countries the stalls are wider. I'm old enough to remember when our starting stalls were first brought in and they were designed so that they could be legally towed on the roads of this country.

This led to them being significantly narrower than those abroad. The UK stalls are 35.4 inches wide and those in the USA are 45 to 50 inches wide - much bigger.

Yes the horses are blindfolded and 'heaved' into the stalls when necessary, however there is a time limit for the stalls handlers to try loading a reluctant horse and if they refuse for too long (5 mins-ish) then they are led away and declared a non-runner. Horses that prove consistently difficult to load and/or declared non runners due to stalls issues have to undergo a 'stalls test' before being allowed to run again.

In contrast to that 5 mins trying I've seen many cases of horses at all sorts of shows from Pony Club to BD refusing to load and being hit, shoved, pulled around for anything up to several hours. At Windsor sponsored ride one year someone's horse refused to load and was lined up between 2 polo lorries at the end of the day and beaten back onto the particpants lorry by the polo people using polo sticks. I didn't witness it but it was one of the others at the livery yard I was at then - and the horse's owner thought it was 'funny' and told the tale 'proudly'.

Not all abuse is centred around racing.
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This is correct, and unnecessary. I did do some work riding years ago, including starting youngsters from stalls, and found it really claustrophobic, unnerving to have all this metalwork so close as you bound out, horrendous on one that starts snaking, hopping about, so it was a surprise so many horses seem to tolerate it as the precursor to a jolly good run with their mates - which part they most definitely did enjoy.
One preference of jump v flat, is the absence of stalls, altho any NH starts off a bend in the track seems crazy.
 
bonny said:
Have you ever watched people trying to load a reluctant horse into a trailer/lorry ? Now imagine you’ve got up to 20 young horses all needing to go in quickly and then maybe you might understand the problem !
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My point was that if the horses loved racing then they would go into the stalls willingly.
 
Exasperated said:
a jolly good run with their mates - which part they most definitely did enjoy.
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This is where interpretations can differ. John Dunlop is on record as saying that racing exploits horses' fear (like the old joke about two hikers encountering a bear, one bends down to tighten his laces, his friend says you'll never outrun it, he says I don't need to outrun it, I just need to outrun you).
 
Burnttoast said:
This is where interpretations can differ. John Dunlop is on record as saying that racing exploits horses' fear (like the old joke about two hikers encountering a bear, one bends down to tighten his laces, his friend says you'll never outrun it, he says I don't need to outrun it, I just need to outrun you).
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There will always be room for interpretation, until humans telepathise with the horses concerned, allowing that not each individual horse may necessarily experience the racing in the exact same way - like humans.
I genuinely believe that galloping together is exhilarating for the horses involved (which are usually at far higher peak of fitness and health than the average horse). Jockeys also find it exhilarating, likewise some spectators. Colts on youngstock livery find en masse galloping wildly exciting, and sometimes break their legs; as do hacks plodding along that get hit by vehicles. Could more be done to reduce horse and human casualties in racing? Very possibly, which should always be reviewed.
 
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Having ridden young horses from the stalls in France and Switzerland, i can't imagine them being even narrower in the UK !!! :oops:

Once, you are in there, it's seems so narrow, besides you can't really put your irons too short as the horse might not go straight,
you have to be ready for anything.

As far as putting the horses in, I think, France also has troubles, not sure if they have less troubles than in the UK.

I knew a mare that I rode daily, she had clearly enough and refused to go in, point blank, she was small and they sort off carried her inside.

Luckily, the ''blind and deaf '' owner finally saw sens and retired her, she really didn't want to do it anymore...

Sometimes, racing people knows that horses had enough but there is always another lucrative race to be run, it must be hard to draw the line,
guess, it's a bit like that old euthanasia saying, better a day too early than a week too late.

Better a race to early than one too many....
 
Go On Chez at Fakenham got a lot of coverage in the papers, perfect for racing's SLO :rolleyes:


Exasperated said:
There will always be room for interpretation, until humans telepathise with the horses concerned, allowing that not each individual horse may necessarily experience the racing in the exact same way - like humans.
I genuinely believe that galloping together is exhilarating for the horses involved (which are usually at far higher peak of fitness and health than the average horse). Jockeys also find it exhilarating, likewise some spectators. Colts on youngstock livery find en masse galloping wildly exciting, and sometimes break their legs; as do hacks plodding along that get hit by vehicles. Could more be done to reduce horse and human casualties in racing? Very possibly, which should always be reviewed.
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And yet they so often have stress/pain face and indications of mental or physical discomfort at the time and afterwards. Galloping for an extended period causes extremely high blood pressure while the exercise persists. Both hypertension and vigorous exercise in humans can cause headaches (unpleasant ones as I can attest). Hypertension in horses is also suspected as leading to/a cause of headshaking in some cases, and many horses after a race rub/shake/toss the head sometimes violently. Do they just have a banging headache? Has anyone ever asked this or do we just assume that's what horses do and it's completely benign?
 
Burnttoast said:
Go On Chez at Fakenham got a lot of coverage in the papers, perfect for racing's SLO :rolleyes:



And yet they so often have stress/pain face and indications of mental or physical discomfort at the time and afterwards. Galloping for an extended period causes extremely high blood pressure while the exercise persists. Both hypertension and vigorous exercise in humans can cause headaches (unpleasant ones as I can attest). Hypertension in horses is also suspected as leading to/a cause of headshaking in some cases, and many horses after a race rub/shake/toss the head sometimes violently. Do they just have a banging headache? Has anyone ever asked this or do we just assume that's what horses do and it's completely benign?
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Has anyone asked a horse if they have a sore head ? This thread is just getting silly.
I should leave it be really…..
 
Has anyone considered that if racing gets banned what will happen. It would have to be phased out as currently mares are being put in foal so those flat horses wont see the track for 3 years and the NH ones 5 years. So your looking at 12/13 years before they'd all have finished they're racing career. But there is the pointing and flapping side of things to also consider horses run for a lot longer there and if racing was to cease is it not a scary thought version of flapping that's totally unregulated would rear its head then these horses would be subjected to a unregulated and unlicensed form of horse racing taking place on unprepared tracks with little to no veterinary access and stewards will be minimal

Currently horse racing is ruled by a pretty iron fist and welfare is right up there. Every trainer is licensed and has to be prepared for spot checks in the yard and drugs tests for every winner.ban horse racing and theres no regulations but for as long as horses walk on this earth people will want to race them and without regulations and licenses all control of how racehorses are looked after goes out the window. For as long as horse racing's a major industry both in selling horses and gambling it will mean that horses have to have a certain level of care met. Yes this can always be improved but at least there are people trying to do this. Because its front and centre televised and royals and famous people photographed enjoying a day out people will always have a issue with horses being used for our enjoyment but where will these people be when the horses are actually not under good care and being raced on any drug they can get they're hands-on.

Im not for a second saying improvements can't be made that's a given in life we should all always be learning and trying to improve but perhaps we should be careful that we don't jump out of the frying pan and into the fire.
 
bonny said:
Has anyone asked a horse if they have a sore head ? This thread is just getting silly.
I should leave it be really…..
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You think it's silly to consider that extreme exertion may often lead to significant discomfort? Most human athletes can tell you how crap exceptional exertion can make them feel. Glad I'm not your horse.
 
Dreamon21 said:
Has anyone considered that if racing gets banned what will happen. It would have to be phased out as currently mares are being put in foal so those flat horses wont see the track for 3 years and the NH ones 5 years. So your looking at 12/13 years before they'd all have finished they're racing career. But there is the pointing and flapping side of things to also consider horses run for a lot longer there and if racing was to cease is it not a scary thought version of flapping that's totally unregulated would rear its head then these horses would be subjected to a unregulated and unlicensed form of horse racing taking place on unprepared tracks with little to no veterinary access and stewards will be minimal

Currently horse racing is ruled by a pretty iron fist and welfare is right up there. Every trainer is licensed and has to be prepared for spot checks in the yard and drugs tests for every winner.ban horse racing and theres no regulations but for as long as horses walk on this earth people will want to race them and without regulations and licenses all control of how racehorses are looked after goes out the window. For as long as horse racing's a major industry both in selling horses and gambling it will mean that horses have to have a certain level of care met. Yes this can always be improved but at least there are people trying to do this. Because its front and centre televised and royals and famous people photographed enjoying a day out people will always have a issue with horses being used for our enjoyment but where will these people be when the horses are actually not under good care and being raced on any drug they can get they're hands-on.

Im not for a second saying improvements can't be made that's a given in life we should all always be learning and trying to improve but perhaps we should be careful that we don't jump out of the frying pan and into the fire.
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You have only got to look at unregulated sulky racing to see that what you say is so correct…
 
Marshpiper said:
You have only got to look at unregulated sulky racing to see that what you say is so correct…
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Most of Australia has banned jump racing (some bans are of long standing) and they haven't had some kind of unregulated underground industry popping up. Not sure why you think it would happen here.
 
Currently horse racing is ruled by a pretty iron fist and welfare is right up there.

Well, when you see that a jockey walking a exhausted horse over a fence in a race when all the others have fallen by the way side,
hitting the horse and pushing him through the finish, praying that the horse will not collapse before the line, so the greedy owner can
pocket the money, do you really think that racing is ruled by an iron fist ?

The jockey was thinking of the money as nearly all the others punters who had backed him, not the horse well being.....

If I was the lass looking after the horse, I would have cut the jockey's balls off, believe me ! :mad:

The jockey getting a 12 days ban is a joke....
 
Janique said:
Currently horse racing is ruled by a pretty iron fist and welfare is right up there.

Well, when you see that a jockey walking a exhausted horse over a fence in a race when all the others have fallen by the way side,
hitting the horse and pushing him through the finish, praying that the horse will not collapse before the line, so the greedy owner can
pocket the money, do you really think that racing is ruled by an iron fist ?

The jockey was thinking of the money as nearly all the others punters who had backed him, not the horse well being.....

If I was the lass looking after the horse, I would have cut the jockey's balls off, believe me ! :mad:

The jockey getting a 12 days ban is a joke....
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In that moment the only person making a decision was the jockey so no one else can be blamed.
 
Dreamon21 said:
Has anyone considered that if racing gets banned what will happen. It would have to be phased out as currently mares are being put in foal so those flat horses wont see the track for 3 years and the NH ones 5 years. So your looking at 12/13 years before they'd all have finished they're racing career. But there is the pointing and flapping side of things to also consider horses run for a lot longer there and if racing was to cease is it not a scary thought version of flapping that's totally unregulated would rear its head then these horses would be subjected to a unregulated and unlicensed form of horse racing taking place on unprepared tracks with little to no veterinary access and stewards will be minimal

Currently horse racing is ruled by a pretty iron fist and welfare is right up there. Every trainer is licensed and has to be prepared for spot checks in the yard and drugs tests for every winner.ban horse racing and theres no regulations but for as long as horses walk on this earth people will want to race them and without regulations and licenses all control of how racehorses are looked after goes out the window. For as long as horse racing's a major industry both in selling horses and gambling it will mean that horses have to have a certain level of care met. Yes this can always be improved but at least there are people trying to do this. Because its front and centre televised and royals and famous people photographed enjoying a day out people will always have a issue with horses being used for our enjoyment but where will these people be when the horses are actually not under good care and being raced on any drug they can get they're hands-on.

Im not for a second saying improvements can't be made that's a given in life we should all always be learning and trying to improve but perhaps we should be careful that we don't jump out of the frying pan and into the fire.
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And millions of pounds in research funding would disappear.
 
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