Cheltenham Thread

Theres a thing called racehorse death watch or similar collectsthe stats

The fact something like that even exists is a total disgrace

Greyhound racing is banned in some countries and a blxxdy good job, i never thought that would happen

The day racing horses is banned i will celebrate a toast to all the magnificent horses killed by brainless idiots who cant breed sound horses, cant train them and cant ride properly

The black horse in coolmore book finished me, but i knew already worse almost, seen it in person, if that book is untrue why didnt magnier sue the author, i have books quoting breeders from 100 yrs ago one joking she only bred cripples

The rspca is taking an interest in the 4 deaths this year

One year 5 horses died in 2 days at cheltenham, it must have been like a slaughter house

Stats show that this year so far 24 horses have died racing , its only mid march!!!!!!!!

And horses dieing next to a supermarket, where surely they were seen, humans dont deserve horses
 
Janique said:
Currently horse racing is ruled by a pretty iron fist and welfare is right up there.

Well, when you see that a jockey walking a exhausted horse over a fence in a race when all the others have fallen by the way side,
hitting the horse and pushing him through the finish, praying that the horse will not collapse before the line, so the greedy owner can
pocket the money, do you really think that racing is ruled by an iron fist ?

The jockey was thinking of the money as nearly all the others punters who had backed him, not the horse well being.....

If I was the lass looking after the horse, I would have cut the jockey's balls off, believe me ! :mad:

The jockey getting a 12 days ban is a joke....
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I am most definitely not condoning his actions and having seen the replay yesterday I’ve realised quite how bad it was but a couple of things to bear in mind it was a hunter Chase which means he is an amateur jockey and the trainer was an amateur trainer. Again, that does not excuse it. The 12 days ban is because it affects him differently as a nonprofessional jockey. I’m sure for a professional jockey it would’ve been much higher. This is not condoning in any way shape or form but just a little additional information.
 
Crazy_cat_lady said:
Know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but did they really need to run Envoi in this, its such a tough race

Feel like "one last race before retirement" is tempting fate, sure its happened before but cant remember who the horse was
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Willsford is who you're probably thinking of if you're old enough. Jenny Pitman's horse, and it was equally as devastating.

I was at work on Friday and recorded the racing, I've watched up until the lead up to the Gold Cup, I don't think I can watch it knowing about poor Envoi. Please for Gaelic Warrior though especially given what a tearaway he can be when he cuts loose!
 
Clodagh said:
One side, who admit in other threads they don’t really think horses should be ridden any more v those who think that we have dominance and should fill our boots.

🤦‍♀️
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surely with any animal welfare views get updated and we start to question if what we are doing is acceptable. (not just horse or racing) that is how we progess animal welfare over time.

For instance I remember in around 1999 a lot of comments about horses in cages (stables) there was horror from some that we should even call them cages. Now there are endless views about single cell accommodation, stabling 24/7, freedom/friends, track systems etc. so this aspect of horse welfare progresses.

Personally I don't think we should ever consider "dominance and filling our boots" a worthy viewpoint with animals and their welfare.
 
Burnttoast said:
The fatalities resulting from jump racing can be stopped by banning it, as some states in Australia have done. No more fatalities. Is the improvement you mention in racing in terms of injuries and deaths? I don't have any knowledge of the historical figures, or when statistics began to be kept.

'A sense of realism' here is being leveraged in support of no change, I feel. I can draw one line very easily and that's public entertainment. That's pretty cut and dried. No one is denying that stress is a (necessary in some ways) part of life, but a lot of efforts normally go into alleviating chronic or unwarranted stress, which makes it feel disingenuous to argue that it's suddenly ok for a horse to be a bit stressed now and then purely in pursuit of a good time for humans.
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Well no. Because horses die when being exercised, see my examples above. Just stop riding horses, not breed them, that would stop it.
 
Just imagine that horse racing didn't exist and someone came up with the idea for it to be established in 2026. What would the pitch be to get the funding to put it in place? How about this?

We're going to start a thing called racing. We'll breed lots of these horses that can run very fast. We'll call them thoroughbreds. We'll have to breed lots of them because only a small percentage will actually have the speed, physique and temperament to be able to cope with the life they'll have to lead. We've no idea what will happen to the ones that we don't want. Hopefully people will buy them to do other things with and if not there's always the meat money angle. The ones we pick will have to start to be broken in from about 12 - 18 months old. Now, I know that sounds young and at that age their skeletons still aren't properly formed but these horses will be expensive to buy to we need to see some return asap. Other horses will still be chilling in the field at that age and learning how to have their feet picked out and wear a headcollar but ours have to be different because they'll have this job to do.

We aim to start them racing at two years - again that seems quite young but they are very expensive to keep and money doesn't grow on trees. There's all this nonsense now about 'friends, forage and freedom' when it comes to horses but we won't have to worry about that. Because of what they've got to do they'll spend most of their time in a stable and if over 80% of them get ulcers then it's nothing to do with how we treat them. Admittedly there will be some stressful aspects of their lives - travel, intense training, lack of pasture access, inappropriate diet, but when push comes to shove we can say they'll live like kings. When they run they'll enjoy it especially if there are huge fences in the way and the rider has a whip to encourage them if they're not really going fast enough.

Now I have to be honest - there is a slight chance that some of them may actually die when they are doing the racing. We've done an estimate and it's only about 3-4 a week so we don't think it will affect the bottom line too much. And of course if one of them does die then we'll all be very sad and thoughts and prayers will be with everyone associated with the poor creature. We're also putting some sort of board in place which will look carefully at what happens if too many die at once but you don't have to worry as they won't really do anything to change the actual racing. Anyway life has to go on and the good thing about the system we're putting in place is that there will be plenty more runners in the pipe line to replace the one's that don't go home one day.

We're still working on what to do when they either get so badly injured that they can't race, but don't need putting down, or they just get too old to carry on. Bit tricky this. We're hoping that the owners of the very famous ones - who'll have done very nicely out of them- will give them a home somewhere. Of course we can't force them to do that. There might be a chance a few could get retrained and then rehomed out of racing. That's obviously a fairly limited market as they're not exactly child's first pony material. The decent mares - who've won lots- can go and have lots of babies - feeding the machine you might say. The rest, well, once there out of racing they're not really our concern so you don't have to worry too much about it. You certainly won't be expected to put you hand in your pocket to make sure they're all happy somewhere. We're hoping market forces will probably take care of the one's that weren't that successful on the track.

So - any takers? We think it's a winner all round. Public will love something else to bet on. Bookies will love taking the bets. Govt will love taking the tax off the bookies. Everyone's a winner.

Would it get get the support it needs to be put in place? Everyone seems to win expect the horses.
 
I used to love racing, now although I don't dislike racing ( i always remember how excited my old pony got when we went into a stubble field knowing he was going for a gallop) I do dislike the racing industry. Like everything, money corrupts. If owners weren't greedy to get a return on their investment ( financial or just enjoyment) flat horses wouldn't race at 2 and be started at 1! They could be babies in a field, they could be started at 3 or 4 when they can physically and emotionally cope better, but that would mean money spent on their keep with no return and also they risk being injured in the field before they ever get to a racecourse. If horses started later and ran older then breeding would shift to horses that can cope for longer so those that don't cut it are more likely to have a career afterwards. If the industry cared more about the horses welfare they would pay more attention to breeding traits and breed physical strength back into NH horses, are some of these fatalities that they are bred from flat racehorses and just too lightweight? The amount of wastage in racing is horrible. Whilst some yards do really look after their horses and treat them fairly there are others who absolutely don't, my ex racer fell over hurdles and rotated her pelvis, racing stables didn't bother getting a vet, she started being difficult and refusing hurdles, still no vet just lots of beatings and in the end she was sold to a 14 year old novice as "she wasn't good enough" ( or more likely wasn't worth the effort). Why is there not more unannounced visits to yards? Why can't they find a way for stewards to pull up horses mid race when they think they are being pushed too hard? There must be lots of things racing could do to improve welfare standards but they don't do them because they are not cost effective and owners wouldn't like them.
 
There are quite a lot of unannounced checks to racing yards but because they’re unannounced, they are probably not generally known about. Yards have regular planned inspections too, and follow ups. I don’t think there is any of the other equestrian disciplines where regulatory body makes inspections and outdoor unannounced. I think the stewards can stop a race at any point so they could’ve stopped that race at Fakenham. I don’t know about stopping a particular horse.

That is very poor if your horse wasn’t checked out properly after a fall. Have you ever looked at Jo Davies Racing Facebook to see the amount of care and attention she puts into finding out what is going on with any horse that is not right. Hopefully that is a much better reflection of what happens.
 
humblepie said:
There are quite a lot of unannounced checks to racing yards but because they’re unannounced, they are probably not generally known about. Yards have regular planned inspections too, and follow ups. I don’t think there is any of the other equestrian disciplines where regulatory body makes inspections and outdoor unannounced. I think the stewards can stop a race at any point so they could’ve stopped that race at Fakenham. I don’t know about stopping a particular horse.

That is very poor if your horse wasn’t checked out properly after a fall. Have you ever looked at Jo Davies Racing Facebook to see the amount of care and attention she puts into finding out what is going on with any horse that is not right. Hopefully that is a much better reflection of what happens.
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I have been to quite a few NH and flat yards over the years and went to Jo Davies' open day last year. She is one of the very good guys, all horses are treated as individuals and not rushed, all had massive haynets and happy faces. Sadly I have been to yards where this wasn't the case - horses were stood hungry and miserable. Talking about the industry in general, what always concerns me is the huge flat yards that, as we speak, will be getting the 2YOs ready to campaign over the summer, the likes of AOB (who is a genius, Im not stating otherwise) have so many babies and only a small proportion will make it to stud so where do the others end up? If anyone can enlighten me I'd be grateful because it never seems to be spoken about. I would welcome a shake up regarding the welfare of these gorgeous creatures.
 
Coolmore is the ultimate business approach to racing. Their discard rate is disgraceful and they mask it slightly by having all their various racing colours but ultimately it's the same group of people.

Personally whilst I accept that Aidan is a horseman I still can't admire him because I don't respect Coolmore so I'm afraid my attitude to AoB runners is to hope 'anyone but Aidan' for the winner.

If they don't make it in this country then the horses appear to be shipped to Australia and elsewhere to continue their careers in a downward spiral.

I have more respect for Godolphin who invest in rehoming and getting the right person to have the right horse.

I've never forgotten the Coolmore group 1 winner st. Nicholas Abbey that got injured and was kept under ever increasing vet treatment for months that was painful to see until he eventually had to be put down. All in the pursuit of stallion fees by people who already have enough money to last several lifetimes.
 
Yes I agree re seeing horses sold abroad where the aftercare may not be in place. There are still issues here but with RoR and the international work progress is made but some places do worry me. I don’t know enough to answer other points.
 
Clodagh said:
These endless arguments always end up so full of crap!
One side, who admit in other threads they don’t really think horses should be ridden any more v those who think that we have dominance and should fill our boots. Also with a bit of ‘well, donkeys in Egypt have it worse.’

🤦‍♀️
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Interesting perhaps (well, I think it is) that the former side almost all started out enjoying horse sports, grew up thinking of them as normal, watched them at the top level and often engaged in them well into adult life in various ways. What do they see that changed their minds?
 
Burnttoast said:
Interesting perhaps (well, I think it is) that the former side almost all started out enjoying horse sports, grew up thinking of them as normal, watched them at the top level and often engaged in them well into adult life in various ways. What do they see that changed their minds?
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I think there’s middle ground, was all I meant. All arguments on SM get so polarised. I disagree as much with Bonny as I do with Tiddlypom for instance. (Sorry TP without scrolling back up you were the first person that came to mind!).
I think as people grow up their attitudes to things change and we get more caring. Also general sociatal changes as animals are regarded, rightly, as being sentient.
But I’ll never agree horses should not be used for sport. They need to be protected and treated well but not just get rid of horse sports altogether.
 
Clodagh said:
I think there’s middle ground, was all I meant. All arguments on SM get so polarised. I disagree as much with Bonny as I do with Tiddlypom for instance. (Sorry TP without scrolling back up you were the first person that came to mind!).
I think as people grow up their attitudes to things change and we get more caring. Also general sociatal changes as animals are regarded, rightly, as being sentient.
But I’ll never agree horses should not be used for sport. They need to be protected and treated well but not just get rid of horse sports altogether.
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What have I said that you disagree with ?
 
Brummyrat said:
I have been to quite a few NH and flat yards over the years and went to Jo Davies' open day last year. She is one of the very good guys, all horses are treated as individuals and not rushed, all had massive haynets and happy faces. Sadly I have been to yards where this wasn't the case - horses were stood hungry and miserable. Talking about the industry in general, what always concerns me is the huge flat yards that, as we speak, will be getting the 2YOs ready to campaign over the summer, the likes of AOB (who is a genius, Im not stating otherwise) have so many babies and only a small proportion will make it to stud so where do the others end up? If anyone can enlighten me I'd be grateful because it never seems to be spoken about. I would welcome a shake up regarding the welfare of these gorgeous creatures.
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I did my work experience from school in a flat yard ( very successful 2yo trainer who had very few good 3yos) and it was a truly horrible experience, horses were visibly scared of people and aggressive as a result ( I often saw stable staff waving shavings forks at them and yelling so they backed into a corner, bit of a chicken and egg situation here with fear and aggression), I was told it was to keep the adrenaline running through them to build muscle and strengthen them up quicker, not sure on the science of that but thats not the point. It put me right off racing. Many years later a friend worked at Mark Johnstons and they were short staffed so she arranged for me to help out and things were so different there, happy horses, engaging with staff, rustling through pockets looking for treats. That's what annoys me when people say that the horses are looked after like kings ( I mean their not in terms of no turnout etc but hey ho) but that is such a sweeping statement to make about all racing yards when it's clearly not the case and it's not just the low end trainers who's horses run at Hexham etc that don't care about them.
 
humblepie said:
I am most definitely not condoning his actions and having seen the replay yesterday I’ve realised quite how bad it was but a couple of things to bear in mind it was a hunter Chase which means he is an amateur jockey and the trainer was an amateur trainer. Again, that does not excuse it. The 12 days ban is because it affects him differently as a nonprofessional jockey. I’m sure for a professional jockey it would’ve been much higher. This is not condoning in any way shape or form but just a little adding some more infos.
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Come on !!!!

Amateur or not, it doesn't make any difference.... He is arider, he is probably been riding for years !

Even a person riding once a week at a riding school would understand and feel that the horse was exhausted !!!

The jockey knew exactly what he was doing, he wanted to cross the finish line to get the prize money and he believed that the horse could do it,,,

What he didn't realise is that millions of people were watching him ! Let's hope, he uses his brains next time, not sure that he has any tbh.....
 
Janique said:
Come on !!!!

Amateur or not, it doesn't make any difference.... He is arider, he is probably been riding for years !

Even a person riding once a week at a riding school would understand and feel that the horse was exhausted !!!

The jockey knew exactly what he was doing, he wanted to cross the finish line to get the prize money and he believed that the horse could do it,,,

What he didn't realise is that millions of people were watching him ! Let's hope, he uses his brains next time, not sure that he has any tbh.....
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very good post

Clodagh said:
But I’ll never agree horses should not be used for sport. They need to be protected and treated well but not just get rid of horse sports altogether.
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the problem is not riding them or sport but competitive sport where wining, money, prestige etc come at the price of the horse.
 
paddy555 said:
the problem is not riding them or sport but competitive sport where wining, money, prestige etc come at the price of the horse.
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I’d be accused of whataboutery if I said that.
Leisure riders good, competition riders bad possibly a bit sweeping?

I’m not saying bad things don’t happen in racing.

Another point is the amateur rider on the pointer only got 12 days as that is the maximum ban for that offence.
 
It's a long time ago that I worked for a NH permit holder but now myself and OH have 'tail hair' shares in nearly 20 horses with two of the racing syndicate clubs.

Although I can no longer physically cope with attending racing (too much standing and walking around) we enjoy doing the morning stable visits to the various trainers and have so far been to 8 around the country.

At all but one of those stables all the horses were happy to say hello and be patted (unless despite all of us being there they were crashed out asleep!). However that one trainer (I won't say who) the horses appeared 'shut down' and most unwilling to come to say hello and were at the back of their stables with obvious stable vices and many notices saying 'bites'.

Apart from that one yard the only other one (and it's a mix of dual, flat and NH trainers we've visited) I felt sad for was the Newmarket flat yard. All the horses, despite not having any turnout, were happy and relaxed and had no sign of stables vices, even the colts. They were all given a pick of grass and a roll when they got back from morning exercise but unlike the other yards we've visited there wasn't any turnout.

Things are changing in regard to horse welfare in the context of knowledge of horses needs, vet treatments and turnout. Change takes time though and all that can be done is to apply sensible pressure to make things better - without going from one extreme of changing nothing to the other end of banning everything.

Racing requirements have over the years funded a lot of veterinary research that is now available to 'normal' horses. This is similar to the Formula1 motor racing where a lot of the things we now take for granted in our own cars (anti-lock brakes, airbags, etc.) were born from F1 developments. (Personally I find motor racing incredibly boring but I do admire the technology they develop)

There is usually a balance to be found with most things and aiming for slow but maintained progress is usually the best thing in contrast to rapid and not thought through reactions. Trying for too rapid change can often make people dig their toes in and refuse to co-operate. Bit tortoise and hare really....
 
Clodagh said:
Another point is the amateur rider on the pointer only got 12 days as that is the maximum ban for that offence.
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how long he got is unimportant. It is the fact that it was even allowed to happen in the first place and also the fact that the rider and trainer thought it even remotely in the horse's interests. Winning v the horse. The horse doesn't have a chance.
 
reynold said:
It's a long time ago that I worked for a NH permit holder but now myself and OH have 'tail hair' shares in nearly 20 horses with two of the racing syndicate clubs.

Although I can no longer physically cope with attending racing (too much standing and walking around) we enjoy doing the morning stable visits to the various trainers and have so far been to 8 around the country.

At all but one of those stables all the horses were happy to say hello and be patted (unless despite all of us being there they were crashed out asleep!). However that one trainer (I won't say who) the horses appeared 'shut down' and most unwilling to come to say hello and were at the back of their stables with obvious stable vices and many notices saying 'bites'.

Apart from that one yard the only other one (and it's a mix of dual, flat and NH trainers we've visited) I felt sad for was the Newmarket flat yard. All the horses, despite not having any turnout, were happy and relaxed and had no sign of stables vices, even the colts. They were all given a pick of grass and a roll when they got back from morning exercise but unlike the other yards we've visited there wasn't any turnout.

Things are changing in regard to horse welfare in the context of knowledge of horses needs, vet treatments and turnout. Change takes time though and all that can be done is to apply sensible pressure to make things better - without going from one extreme of changing nothing to the other end of banning everything.

Racing requirements have over the years funded a lot of veterinary research that is now available to 'normal' horses. This is similar to the Formula1 motor racing where a lot of the things we now take for granted in our own cars (anti-lock brakes, airbags, etc.) were born from F1 developments. (Personally I find motor racing incredibly boring but I do admire the technology they develop)

There is usually a balance to be found with most things and aiming for slow but maintained progress is usually the best thing in contrast to rapid and not thought through reactions. Trying for too rapid change can often make people dig their toes in and refuse to co-operate. Bit tortoise and hare really....
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Really interesting post Reynold, like you say, the training of racehorses is constantly adapting and I am pleased to hear a lot of the smaller yards are now trying to give the horses as normal a life a possible. One well known GN winning trainer told us on a yard visit a few years ago that he liked buying cheap horses who had a multitude or problems (bleeding etc) and would train them literally from the field, successfully as well. Unfortunately the larger stables don't have the room for turnout and have so many in so they have never incorporated that in their training, I do hope that this continues to change.
 
I've been to a few racing yards now, big, well known names. Some do train from the field, several turnout after exercise (unless the depths of a horrible winter).
 
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