cheltenham

MyBoyChe said:
Thanks for the link to that article RTE, agree, well written. I think where Ruby fell down was in failing to dress his comments up in sugar to make them more palatable. I think the vast majority of folk who have the countryside in their blood, horses in their lives etc will understand only too well what he meant. It doesnt make him callous or uncaring, just sensible and level headed. Of course it is sad when a horse loses its life racing, but better PTS at the scene than carted off to endure treatment that may not work and an uncertain future at best if it does. The loss of a horse impacts on many but nowhere near as many or as badly as the loss of a person. Sadly in this day and age too many people just do not want to understand the unpalatable realities in all walks of life and cant handle a bit of plain straight talking.
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Well said, I absolutely agree.
 
May we all take a moment to remember, and wish well, John Thomas McNamara. A year ago today he paid a very big price in the name of racing and his life will never be the same again. We should also remember all the other injured jockeys past and present.

These are brave men who put their lives on the line every single time the flag falls. May all the horses and jockeys that start today at Cheltenham and elsewhere return home safe.
 
amandap said:
From the perspective stated repeatedly above, one partner in the team being worth less, can be easily replaced, it's only a horse!
From my kitchen chair btw!
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He was putting the horse's death in perspective to a person's death - can you honestly put the two as equal? I love both my horses and my OH a great deal and would be crushed to lose them but I know I would find it a lot easier to replace my horses than my OH.

Perspective is such a tool - there are over 230 people gone missing in a jet out of the sky in the last week, as tragic as the horse's death was, it puts the situation into balance.
 
Caledonia said:
That's not what you said. You said horses are considered only as a tool which is nonsense. Clearly your kitchen chair perspective is tunnelled by your bias against racing.
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Well we all have a bias don't we!

Horses are tools because they are disposable, we use them purely for our entertainment, kudos and for money. They are looked after well from human perspective and when no longer of use, passed on.
Its the mix of sentimentality v real life (sugar coating) that irritates me for eg. quote from the article Run to earth put up:-

"Racehorses are pampered and loved like few other animals – and I include cats and dogs in that. They live in five-star equine hotels, their sheets are changed daily, they are rugged up at night, they are exercised every day; we bring in psychologists if we think they have a mental problem, they might spend part of an afternoon in a solarium, they get holidays, the vast majority like what they do and want to do what they do, and occasionally they die in action."

Humans might like 5 star hotels and sheets but it really is getting desperate to use those terms as a measure to convince Jo Public of how good we are to race horses!

If horses were considered more perhaps NH would again be bred for strength and stature as opposed to light frames for speed for eg! If they are so well looked after (in horses eyes v human eyes) then psychologists wouldn't be required!

I forget which trainer said words to the effect of "we harness their fear and flight instinct and use it in racing" Someone speaking a truth!

Anyway, I'll take my bias and leave you experts to it.
 
RunToEarth said:
He was putting the horse's death in perspective to a person's death - can you honestly put the two as equal?
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I just don't look at it that way. I don't compare which is worse, they are both tragic. I don't see how comparing horse v human value/worth is helpful and it doesn't even make any sense to me. That's my perspective.
 
amandap said:
I just don't look at it that way. I don't compare which is worse, they are both tragic. I don't see how comparing horse v human value/worth is helpful and it doesn't even make any sense to me. That's my perspective.
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Really? Really? Paraphrasing a quote from Ruby there's a big difference between going home and finding something seriously wrong with your dog and going home to find something
Seriously wrong with your child!
I love my horses but we do need some perspective. Are you telling me if you had to choose between saving the life of your horse and saving the life of your mother that would present a big dilemma to you???
 
minesadouble said:
Really? Really? Paraphrasing a quote from Ruby there's a big difference between going home and finding something seriously wrong with your dog and going home to find something
Seriously wrong with your child!
I love my horses but we do need some perspective. Are you telling me if you had to choose between saving the life of your horse and saving the life of your mother that would present a big dilemma to you???
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Why does making that sort of choice come into it in 21C UK? It seems to me an unnecessary and emotive thing to do, to pit us against horses and other animals.
 
amandap said:
I forget which trainer said words to the effect of "we harness their fear and flight instinct and use it in racing" Someone speaking a truth!
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That would have been Luca Cumani.

I too dislike sentimentality and sugar coating. "At least he [or 'she', but never 'it' in this context!] died doing what he loved" always irritates me somewhat, although I understand the sentiment behind it. It's meant to comfort people, not justify the event. That's not to say that racehorses don't enjoy running because they are bred to race after all. Running is in the genes that determines their instincts. However, in my opinion it is going a step too far to claim that all horses love to race, when the love for sport than (some) humans have is clearly different from horses' instinct to run in the motivations for each. If they were that motivated (or motivated that way), they wouldn't need jockeys.

None of which is intended to imply that there's anything ethically wrong with racing per se (although abuses do occur, as with any sport, equine or human).
 
amandap said:
Why does making that sort of choice come into it in 21C UK? It seems to me an unnecessary and emotive thing to do, to pit us against horses and other animals.
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But that is how you are coming across. There is absolutely no comparison to be made to which live has the most value , it is coming across as an hysterical stubbornness on your part, I'm sorry.
 
Completely on a different line of interest:

My ginger square runs on the 4pm at Cheltenham today. Tap Night with Barry Geraghty in the saddle. Keep your eyes peeled for him scooting up the home straight!

I get to watch him on a tv screen from the yak track that is Hexham :-\
 
Maesfen said:
But that is how you are coming across. There is absolutely no comparison to be made to which live has the most value , it is coming across as an hysterical stubbornness on your part, I'm sorry.
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Oh well, I seem to have failed to be reasonable again on H&H.

"There is absolutely no comparison to be made to which live has the most value"
That was the point I was trying (failing obviously) to make to those who kept asking me to compare and choose.
 
EKW said:
Completely on a different line of interest:

My ginger square runs on the 4pm at Cheltenham today. Tap Night with Barry Geraghty in the saddle. Keep your eyes peeled for him scooting up the home straight!

I get to watch him on a tv screen from the yak track that is Hexham :-\
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Good luck to you. AP looks like he is in agony after winning the first.
 
amandap said:
Oh well, I seem to have failed to be reasonable again on H&H.

"There is absolutely no comparison to be made to which live has the most value"
That was the point I was trying (failing obviously) to make to those who kept asking me to compare and choose.
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I am afraid this qualified as a "semi-flounce" and (to paraphrase one of my favourite lines in a movie - from A League of Their Own) "there's no flouncing in racing . . . "

Seriously, though, amandap, I (and others here) get that you care deeply about the demise of these horses . . . and that you feel that, somehow (as evidenced in RW's comments) their connections don't value them as highly as their human counterparts. And, do you know what, you are probably right . . . and RW made that agonizingly clear when he drew the parallel between the death of a (loved) racehorse and a fellow colleague.

I love my horse. I love the bones of him. Ditto my dogs. I love watching racing. I love horses in general. Hell, I'd say I love animals in general. Cruelty to animals appals me. But, even though I don't always like being around them, I'd have to say I "value" human beings more. And I certainly love my children and my husband more than my dogs and my horse. Come the day I have to have either of my dogs or my beloved silver boy PTS, my heart will break. I will cry. I will wail. I won't sleep. I won't eat. For a while. It will hurt. A lot. But it still wouldn't hurt nearly as much as losing a member of my family or one of my close friends.

That's the only point RW was making. And in making it, he didn't once - not in one single second - intimate that he didn't care, deeply, about the horses he rides.

If you don't like the realities that come with watching racing, then don't watch it. It will still go on without you. As will all horse/animal sports.

P
 
amandap said:
I just don't look at it that way. I don't compare which is worse, they are both tragic. I don't see how comparing horse v human value/worth is helpful and it doesn't even make any sense to me. That's my perspective.
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fwiw, I see your POV and what you are trying to say. For me there is no comparison between losing a horse or a person.I have lost both and losing a person is something you don't get over. But in the context of racing, that's not what I am comparing. We are not talking about the random dying of a loved one or someone dying of an illness. We're talking about one half of the 'team' taking a calculated risk. The jockeys have a choice (although it would be nice if jockey/lad welfare could be improved too), the horses do not. I worked in flat racing, in a good yard and then worked in one of the top racing practices in the UK.I am under no illusions about the racing industry.

Horses are kept for our entertainment, that's their job and god knows they need jobs. I don't want to see an end to equestrian sport. Its where the line is drawn-how do we make it safer, improve welfare etc.

The story of how well they are treated in training does nothing for the argument for me either. Its in the peoples interests to look after them well-what happens afterwards is as important.
 
amandap said:
"There is absolutely no comparison to be made to which live has the most value"
That was the point I was trying (failing obviously) to make to those who kept asking me to compare and choose.
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You weren't failing . . . you made your point very clearly . . . but other people don't agree. That's the thing about opinions/points of view :).

P
 
PolarSkye said:
I am afraid this qualified as a "semi-flounce" and (to paraphrase one of my favourite lines in a movie - from A League of Their Own) "there's no flouncing in racing . . . "

P
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Lol! I obviously have no idea how I come across, I thought I was answering questions put directly to me but perhaps I should have ignored them.

For the record I also care very much about Jockeys losing their lives, I have no illusion my thinking makes any difference and (flounce alert!) will try harder to mind my own business. ;)

ps. Also for the record I don't wish to see an end to Equestrian sport either.
 
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amandap said:
Lol! I obviously have no idea how I come across, I thought I was answering questions put directly to me but perhaps I should have ignored them.

For the record I also care very much about Jockeys losing their lives, I have no illusion my thinking makes any difference and (flounce alert!) will try harder to mind my own business. ;)
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Oh Hon, I was teasing you and trying to lighten the (what had become a quite tense) mood . . . you are, of course, entitled to your opinion . . . racing will always engender debate and yours is welcome :).

P
 
We are all entitled to our opinion and differences of opinion make a forum. Wouldn't be very interesting or thought provoking if we all thought the same.
 
Feel desperately sorry for Daryl Jacob there; he's under immense pressure following in Ruby's footsteps and he obviously thought he'd won it. Classy reaction by Dickie Johnson though, he's a gent.
 
EKW said:
Completely on a different line of interest:

My ginger square runs on the 4pm at Cheltenham today. Tap Night with Barry Geraghty in the saddle. Keep your eyes peeled for him scooting up the home straight!

I get to watch him on a tv screen from the yak track that is Hexham :-\
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Fingers crossed for Tap Night at Cheltenham

You're not having too bad a day at Hexham :) - well done to all concerned with Lady of Verona !
 
redstar said:
Happy retirement big bucks, hope you have a long and healthy happy one and you get to stay with your groom. Well done big lad.
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Echo this ^^. A fantastic horse who has clearly given his owner, trainer and Ruby Walsh a lot of pleasure. A happy ending. You thoroughly deserve your applause Big Buck's.

Lovely looking horse that won
 
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