severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Does freezing chicken kill of Salmonella?
Chicken
- Thread starter severnmiles
- Start date
sunflower
Well-Known Member
No, not necessarily. It will stop them from multiplying but as you bring the temperature up to defrost they may well multiply.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
No, not necessarily. It will stop them from multiplying but as you bring the temperature up to defrost they may well multiply.
[/ QUOTE ]
So boiling or cooking at a high temp is the only way to kill the bug?
No, not necessarily. It will stop them from multiplying but as you bring the temperature up to defrost they may well multiply.
[/ QUOTE ]
So boiling or cooking at a high temp is the only way to kill the bug?
sunflower
Well-Known Member
Yep, and make sure it's cooked through.
piebaldsparkle
Well-Known Member
Yep (to cooking being the only way to kill bug).
ShadowFlame
Well-Known Member
I was told that salmonella doesn't affect dogs anyway?
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I was told that salmonella doesn't affect dogs anyway?
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats what someone just told me, BUT mums JRT was a bit peaky and the vet has said its salmonella poisening and he's in isolation because it can pass to the other dogs....
She says its from feeding Barf, but I can't find anything and I've never had problems in over 2 years and always fed chicken.
I was told that salmonella doesn't affect dogs anyway?
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats what someone just told me, BUT mums JRT was a bit peaky and the vet has said its salmonella poisening and he's in isolation because it can pass to the other dogs....
Tia
Well-Known Member
I feed raw meat (beef and venison) but never uncooked chicken or pork. Sorry to hear about your little dog - hope he feels better soon.
This vet paper may be of interest to you;
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339295
This vet paper may be of interest to you;
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339295
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Can't offer any advice on the chicken, but a friend had a whole litter of pups with salmonella according to the vet, so would appear dogs can definitely catch it.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Can't offer any advice on the chicken, but a friend had a whole litter of pups with salmonella according to the vet, so would appear dogs can definitely catch it.
[/ QUOTE ]
But that may be the Salmonella found in the ground?
Can't offer any advice on the chicken, but a friend had a whole litter of pups with salmonella according to the vet, so would appear dogs can definitely catch it.
[/ QUOTE ]
But that may be the Salmonella found in the ground?
sloulou
Well-Known Member
Salmonella doesn't just come from chicken... you can get it from any food that is contaminated including any meat or vegetable... I guess it is about sourcing your meat well?
my dog gets get raw chicken, lamb, pork, beef, game etc... I freeze it all first (esp the beef because of the Neospora). I just make sure I buy him good quality meat.
my dog gets get raw chicken, lamb, pork, beef, game etc... I freeze it all first (esp the beef because of the Neospora). I just make sure I buy him good quality meat.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Yeh, could have been from anywhere. Thought the previous post meant that dogs just couldn't catch salmonella. Although mine aren't on barf diet I would have thought there would have been more publciity about the risk of salmonella for dogs on it before now, particularly by the dog food manufacturers!
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I feed raw meat (beef and venison) but never uncooked chicken or pork. Sorry to hear about your little dog - hope he feels better soon.
This vet paper may be of interest to you;
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339295
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the link, it says they can pass live Salmonella which I knew but it doesn't say they can get Salmonella poisening FROM chicken. I also wonder who conducted the study - it seemed to me it was a very 'Feed Barf your dog may get Salmonella - Feed commercial feed and it won't', though they don't say he/she may well get cancer/tumours/liver failiure e.t.c
You're brave re. vension, my dogs love it but I can't cope with the presents the following day due its richness
I feed raw meat (beef and venison) but never uncooked chicken or pork. Sorry to hear about your little dog - hope he feels better soon.
This vet paper may be of interest to you;
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339295
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the link, it says they can pass live Salmonella which I knew but it doesn't say they can get Salmonella poisening FROM chicken. I also wonder who conducted the study - it seemed to me it was a very 'Feed Barf your dog may get Salmonella - Feed commercial feed and it won't', though they don't say he/she may well get cancer/tumours/liver failiure e.t.c
You're brave re. vension, my dogs love it but I can't cope with the presents the following day due its richness
sloulou
Well-Known Member
Murphy'sminder - sorry my reply wasn't aimed at you!
Severnmiles - have you seen this: http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/doghealth01salmonella.pdf
a bit one sided perhaps - but still interesting..
Severnmiles - have you seen this: http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/doghealth01salmonella.pdf
a bit one sided perhaps - but still interesting..
Tia
Well-Known Member
LOL!! The venison is killed on our property once a year. It isn't hung for long; pretty much butchered straight away so it isn't so gamey for them.
pocomoto
Well-Known Member
Have probably said this before, the gut of the canine has evolved over some 55 million years to be able to digest carrion, ie completely disgusting and skanky meat, full of bacteria that would kill a human, regardless of freezing.
To do this the canine has a VERY short gut, it does not need to ferment fibre to get nutrients from plant cells, like omnivores and herbivores. This means that the skanky meal moves very quickly through the gut and does not allow bugs like Salmonella to take hold also a healthy Canine gut is very acidic to break down bone, so this will kill most bugs.
Along comes man and in the space of about 80 years we feed them all the wrong things, cooked meat and cereal derivatives that takes ages to travel through the gut reducing its efficiency to repel the bugs. So feed a proper BARF diet and you might get the odd loose stool but with a healthy gut no salmonella poisoning as we know it.
To do this the canine has a VERY short gut, it does not need to ferment fibre to get nutrients from plant cells, like omnivores and herbivores. This means that the skanky meal moves very quickly through the gut and does not allow bugs like Salmonella to take hold also a healthy Canine gut is very acidic to break down bone, so this will kill most bugs.
Along comes man and in the space of about 80 years we feed them all the wrong things, cooked meat and cereal derivatives that takes ages to travel through the gut reducing its efficiency to repel the bugs. So feed a proper BARF diet and you might get the odd loose stool but with a healthy gut no salmonella poisoning as we know it.
Tia
Well-Known Member
Pocomoto (and all other BARF feeders); out of interest, do you feed raw pork and uncooked offal?
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Pocomoto (and all other BARF feeders); out of interest, do you feed raw pork and uncooked offal?
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I know that question wasn't for me but we feed raw pork...and uncooked hearts...
Isn't it funny, wolves see the offal (liver, heart e.t.c) as the prized pieces and the lower ranking wolves get rump... yet we see it the other way around!
Pocomoto (and all other BARF feeders); out of interest, do you feed raw pork and uncooked offal?
[/ QUOTE ]
I know that question wasn't for me but we feed raw pork...and uncooked hearts...
Isn't it funny, wolves see the offal (liver, heart e.t.c) as the prized pieces and the lower ranking wolves get rump... yet we see it the other way around!
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
[ QUOTE ]
To do this the canine has a VERY short gut, it does not need to ferment fibre to get nutrients from plant cells, like omnivores and herbivores. This means that the skanky meal moves very quickly through the gut and does not allow bugs like Salmonella to take hold also a healthy Canine gut is very acidic to break down bone, so this will kill most bugs.
[/ QUOTE ]
so wild dogs never die from bone fragments piercing the gut then? because domestic dogs fed on a raw diet certainly do. do wild dogs never die from eating something they perhaps shouldnt?
obviously feeding poor quality food, high in carbohydrates can cause problems such as small intestine bacterial overgrowth, but to be honest-this BARF = the Holy Grail of dog food is about as true as saying feral horses never go lame-lets not shoe our horses.
have seen dogs with severe impactions due to being fed too many chicken wings-its really not something people should just try with the family pooch because they read it on a forum.
To do this the canine has a VERY short gut, it does not need to ferment fibre to get nutrients from plant cells, like omnivores and herbivores. This means that the skanky meal moves very quickly through the gut and does not allow bugs like Salmonella to take hold also a healthy Canine gut is very acidic to break down bone, so this will kill most bugs.
[/ QUOTE ]
so wild dogs never die from bone fragments piercing the gut then? because domestic dogs fed on a raw diet certainly do. do wild dogs never die from eating something they perhaps shouldnt?
obviously feeding poor quality food, high in carbohydrates can cause problems such as small intestine bacterial overgrowth, but to be honest-this BARF = the Holy Grail of dog food is about as true as saying feral horses never go lame-lets not shoe our horses.
have seen dogs with severe impactions due to being fed too many chicken wings-its really not something people should just try with the family pooch because they read it on a forum.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
Why hasn't my OH ever come across this in foxes?
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
[ QUOTE ]
Why hasn't my OH ever come across this in foxes?
[/ QUOTE ]
come across what? salmonella, impactions or perforated gut? I dunno-would he know what he was looking at? does he do PMs on them? I am just relating what I have seen, and veterinary friends have seen in practice.
Why hasn't my OH ever come across this in foxes?
[/ QUOTE ]
come across what? salmonella, impactions or perforated gut? I dunno-would he know what he was looking at? does he do PMs on them? I am just relating what I have seen, and veterinary friends have seen in practice.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why hasn't my OH ever come across this in foxes?
[/ QUOTE ]
come across what? salmonella, impactions or perforated gut? I dunno-would he know what he was looking at? does he do PMs on them? I am just relating what I have seen, and veterinary friends have seen in practice.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dead foxes... caused by the above.
You sound like you're on comission for Pedigree Chum
[ QUOTE ]
Why hasn't my OH ever come across this in foxes?
[/ QUOTE ]
come across what? salmonella, impactions or perforated gut? I dunno-would he know what he was looking at? does he do PMs on them? I am just relating what I have seen, and veterinary friends have seen in practice.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dead foxes... caused by the above.
You sound like you're on comission for Pedigree Chum
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
[/ QUOTE ]
Dead foxes... caused by the above.
You sound like you're on comission for Pedigree Chum
[/ QUOTE ]
like I said-how would he know?
and lol at your last comment, I am not a big fan of the pet food companies.
interesting that you resort to playground retorts when someone rationally points out an alternative viewpoint & experience though, well done
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
Dead foxes... caused by the above.
You sound like you're on comission for Pedigree Chum
[/ QUOTE ]
like I said-how would he know?
and lol at your last comment, I am not a big fan of the pet food companies.
interesting that you resort to playground retorts when someone rationally points out an alternative viewpoint & experience though, well done
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen.
Like I said, he's out digging (protecting game birds) 3 times a week and has done for 10 years, he's come across a fox with an amputated leg and stitches left in (we get a few released from the larger towns and cities) and others that have died of shot wounds, yet not one that died with its body in perfect tact...bizarre do you not think?
There are no problems when a dog is brought up on BARF from word go, they don't bolt it because its the norm, they chew the bones properly. As Poco says, they can't get poisened from Salmonella. I can't eat raw meat, it would make me ill yet a south african friend has been brought up on it and still eats raw meat.
Just as our digestive systems are meant for a diet of 98% protein and fat just because we may get food poisening once in a blue moon doesn't mean its not our natural diet.
At a hunt ball last year a gent choked to death on a piece of pork....should we all give pork up???
[/ QUOTE ]
Dead foxes... caused by the above.
You sound like you're on comission for Pedigree Chum
[/ QUOTE ]
like I said-how would he know?
and lol at your last comment, I am not a big fan of the pet food companies.
interesting that you resort to playground retorts when someone rationally points out an alternative viewpoint & experience though, well done
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen.
Like I said, he's out digging (protecting game birds) 3 times a week and has done for 10 years, he's come across a fox with an amputated leg and stitches left in (we get a few released from the larger towns and cities) and others that have died of shot wounds, yet not one that died with its body in perfect tact...bizarre do you not think?
There are no problems when a dog is brought up on BARF from word go, they don't bolt it because its the norm, they chew the bones properly. As Poco says, they can't get poisened from Salmonella. I can't eat raw meat, it would make me ill yet a south african friend has been brought up on it and still eats raw meat.
Just as our digestive systems are meant for a diet of 98% protein and fat just because we may get food poisening once in a blue moon doesn't mean its not our natural diet.
At a hunt ball last year a gent choked to death on a piece of pork....should we all give pork up???
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
nowhere did I say that feeding barf would cause these problems in every or even many animals, just that it could and to pretend otherwise is misleading.
just as believing everything you are told by the pet food manufacturers is foolish, so is believing, without question, what the barf enthusiasts spout foolish.
its called being rational,educated, weighing up the evidence, making informed choices. accepting that there may be another POV. goodness, otherwise we'd just be fascists
just as believing everything you are told by the pet food manufacturers is foolish, so is believing, without question, what the barf enthusiasts spout foolish.
its called being rational,educated, weighing up the evidence, making informed choices. accepting that there may be another POV. goodness, otherwise we'd just be fascists
pocomoto
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so wild dogs never die from bone fragments piercing the gut then? because domestic dogs fed on a raw diet certainly do. do wild dogs never die from eating something they perhaps shouldnt?
obviously feeding poor quality food, high in carbohydrates can cause problems such as small intestine bacterial overgrowth, but to be honest-this BARF = the Holy Grail of dog food is about as true as saying feral horses never go lame-lets not shoe our horses.
have seen dogs with severe impactions due to being fed too many chicken wings-its really not something people should just try with the family pooch because they read it on a forum.
[/ QUOTE ]
In answer to the Pork question, yes I feed raw just about anything that a dog would eat in the wild and have never had any problems. I only feed Pork now and again due to Flatulence!!! My feed is frozen for convenience but when it first arrives from the butcher it is all fresh so for a couple of days they are fed fresh raw.
Re above I have seen hundreds of correctly documented cases of bloat from feeding dry dog food and can easily reference those and have first hand experience, even though I only fed sack food for a short while, till my dog died of intestinal cancer. Feed a dog too much of anything and there will be a problem you cannot blame any diet for human excesses and stupidity. Equally I have never seen a report done on any wild canid having died from this. I regularly see my own and friends dogs bolt a whole chicken carcass in 3 bites and no problems, and these lack the padding of the muscle meat.
I am sure wild dogs in famine do die from something they shouldn't eat out of desperation Besides those that do eat bad things die and do not pass that habit on to their offspring! But what natural prey would ever cause them a problem? Unless of course it has been poisoned by a person.
What I will say and I have asked this on here before and never seen any evidence, give me the documented instances of these supposed raw fed splinters of bone with full testimonies from the owners of the actual dog and the exact number of them and we will compare them to statistics of intestinal problems, anal gland problems, and bloat in the commercial fed dog? (I and a growing number strongly believe that bacterial overgrowth is the very thin edge of the wedge when it comes to illnesses related cereal based and some cooked diets in dogs, cats and horses, the research is there but buried by those with a vested interest)
I and my friends have been feeding this diet relatively for a combined period of around 40 yrs and have NEVER encountered a splinter from a raw bone and I feed chicken so called splinter bones!. In fact when I break up bones with an axe for the oldies the bones do not splinter but break and are not hard cement like structures of cooked ones which if you did the same to would leave long sharp splinters of rock hard cement like substance. Raw bones are a living structure and as such are not rock hard.
I have tried to investigate claims of dogs with splintered bone incidents being fed a truly raw diet and have never found an affirmative. But we all have a right to choose and if this is a risk it is very small for the overall health and wellbeing of the 40 or so dogs and handful of cats I have known personally fed on this diet of raw meat and bones.
Of course feral horses go lame but in nature but that means that those not down to injury but weaknesses, like weak hooves or conformational defects are culled from the herd to the advantage of future generations, they are preyed upon by dogs and cats and dont get to breed! Generally speaking weaknesses in conformation, weak hooves and bright colours are all man made.
I would like to think that readers of this forum are intelligent enough to do their research on ANY feed before they feed it, I certainly did and was horrified what most commercial pet food and some so called natural feeds contain.
Personally there is no going back for me as I see the benefits daily and value my friends too much, but if people do their research and choose a particular feed then that is fine by me. It would be a poor place to be if everyone fed the same, but I would like shares in that company!.
[ QUOTE ]
so wild dogs never die from bone fragments piercing the gut then? because domestic dogs fed on a raw diet certainly do. do wild dogs never die from eating something they perhaps shouldnt?
obviously feeding poor quality food, high in carbohydrates can cause problems such as small intestine bacterial overgrowth, but to be honest-this BARF = the Holy Grail of dog food is about as true as saying feral horses never go lame-lets not shoe our horses.
have seen dogs with severe impactions due to being fed too many chicken wings-its really not something people should just try with the family pooch because they read it on a forum.
[/ QUOTE ]
In answer to the Pork question, yes I feed raw just about anything that a dog would eat in the wild and have never had any problems. I only feed Pork now and again due to Flatulence!!! My feed is frozen for convenience but when it first arrives from the butcher it is all fresh so for a couple of days they are fed fresh raw.
Re above I have seen hundreds of correctly documented cases of bloat from feeding dry dog food and can easily reference those and have first hand experience, even though I only fed sack food for a short while, till my dog died of intestinal cancer. Feed a dog too much of anything and there will be a problem you cannot blame any diet for human excesses and stupidity. Equally I have never seen a report done on any wild canid having died from this. I regularly see my own and friends dogs bolt a whole chicken carcass in 3 bites and no problems, and these lack the padding of the muscle meat.
I am sure wild dogs in famine do die from something they shouldn't eat out of desperation Besides those that do eat bad things die and do not pass that habit on to their offspring! But what natural prey would ever cause them a problem? Unless of course it has been poisoned by a person.
What I will say and I have asked this on here before and never seen any evidence, give me the documented instances of these supposed raw fed splinters of bone with full testimonies from the owners of the actual dog and the exact number of them and we will compare them to statistics of intestinal problems, anal gland problems, and bloat in the commercial fed dog? (I and a growing number strongly believe that bacterial overgrowth is the very thin edge of the wedge when it comes to illnesses related cereal based and some cooked diets in dogs, cats and horses, the research is there but buried by those with a vested interest)
I and my friends have been feeding this diet relatively for a combined period of around 40 yrs and have NEVER encountered a splinter from a raw bone and I feed chicken so called splinter bones!. In fact when I break up bones with an axe for the oldies the bones do not splinter but break and are not hard cement like structures of cooked ones which if you did the same to would leave long sharp splinters of rock hard cement like substance. Raw bones are a living structure and as such are not rock hard.
I have tried to investigate claims of dogs with splintered bone incidents being fed a truly raw diet and have never found an affirmative. But we all have a right to choose and if this is a risk it is very small for the overall health and wellbeing of the 40 or so dogs and handful of cats I have known personally fed on this diet of raw meat and bones.
Of course feral horses go lame but in nature but that means that those not down to injury but weaknesses, like weak hooves or conformational defects are culled from the herd to the advantage of future generations, they are preyed upon by dogs and cats and dont get to breed! Generally speaking weaknesses in conformation, weak hooves and bright colours are all man made.
I would like to think that readers of this forum are intelligent enough to do their research on ANY feed before they feed it, I certainly did and was horrified what most commercial pet food and some so called natural feeds contain.
Personally there is no going back for me as I see the benefits daily and value my friends too much, but if people do their research and choose a particular feed then that is fine by me. It would be a poor place to be if everyone fed the same, but I would like shares in that company!.