Choosing foundation mares

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jamesmead

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In choosing foundation mares for a small stud- what do you look for?

I realise that the answers to this question are, at the same time, open-ended and obvious; that ideally the mare should be sound, have good conformation, good temperament and good pedigree and that she should move well and have shown some ability in whatever she is bred for; but what REALLY matters? What matters most? What wouldn't you sacrifice, or what would you go out and look for, above all else?

For the first time in my life I am going out to look for mares rather than just using mares that I have owned already. Ideally I need two mares; one aimed at eventing, one at showjumping; neither too big; I would be aiming for a teenage competition niche. Please note that this post is not a plea to be offered mares, or a request (at this stage) for critiques of particular animals; I have a long list of likely animals and I have viewed some already; but I am spoilt for choice, especially as prices are so low at present.

Is there anything you would put first in an eventing broodie? In a showjumping broodie? Where you can't see the horse jump (one mare was injured in a field accident; another that I really like is just a yearling - one for the future) is there anything in its build or movement that suggests that its foals will jump?

Sorry if I sound a bit of a numpty; in fact I do know good conformation and movement from bad and am not asking to be told (as I have seen others told whilst a guest on here) that I would be better forgetting about it and leaving breeding to the professionals. My concern is that I may not be able to tell good from exceptionally good.

Thanks in anticipation.
 
I would go for good conformation for the chosen discipline and good bloodlines with if possible a competition record that looks to be going somewhere (in the event of injury) but more importantly go with your gut feeling that you like the mare, temperament wise and looking over a stable door at you for the foreseeable future has got to be a face you want to see!!!!!! (And obviously manage without major issues!!!)
 
for me temp is important, as is comformation. all my mares at present, are mostly showjumping bred, but some have more blood than others. i have chosen stallions i think will suit them best, two will hopefully produce event types, one an out and out jumper?? but all should have the movement to be dressage stars if they dont jump. no garauntees with breeding but if the bloodlines are there also you have a chance.
 
Conformation for me again! I would also look at conformation of relatives to see whether they all carry same traits. Ability to carry foal should also be top on the list i.e. vulva confomation I know so many people who have had mares with good comp record etc but if they aren't put together well behind it can make such a big difference to success of getting mare in foal! For the market you are going for I would say nice compact horses with good conformation and temperament would be what I would look for. I hope your search is successful :-)
 
All the above plus lots of money, time and a bloke or other half that will put up with you. Seriously though, think through your target market and make sure the mare has ALL of the above mentioned, do not compromise on the mare. Wish you well.
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Conformation and toughness, and a solid, long lasting and good performance record from the mare.
And even more importantly- the damline. What the dam of the mare has done and produced, what the granddam has done and the great granddam...this is soooo important!!

In racing mares that have been bred out of generations of non-performers in the dam-line never tend do very well nor stay very sound..even when they are put to good stallions...the same goes for sport horses as well I think.
 
A performance record, good conformation and temperament, and for me, a lot of or pure TB blood - as that is the basis for my breeding program no matter what I am trying to breed. IMO too many people have forgotten about the attributes quality TB blood brings to every kind of sportshorse.
 
All the above plus a good motherline. For me at least it is easy to find a lot of nice mares with nice pedigrees and nice competition records or grading results.
I have learnt now that to stand out/make a difference, I want all that plus top mare families. In fact I will put mare family above competition record.
 
For me its performance and soundness all the way. If a horse has proven itself as a competition horse then you have a good chance of getting what you want in terms of foals.
If the mare is already a broodmare I would defenatly look at what the mare is throwing, a mare i know who was bred for dressage and only competed as a dressage horse throws eventing types regardless of the stallion she has been put to.
 
Well for me it needs to be temperament first, followed by good feet, thereafter conf, athleticism and pedigree. My theory though is that if you do not have something that has a temperament to make it trainable everything else is irrelevant-it is amazing how foals mirror their dam's behaviour during those first few months, there have been many debates on this forum about stallion's temperaments and how sharp they may, or may not be-but what about the mare? Therafter the old adage ' no foot no horse ' needs remembering. Aim for a temperament to make them trainable and feet to stay sound.
 
We've been breeding for some time now so know what works with our stallion and what doesn't.
One bloodline which is the one Cruising was from (Seacrest/Knockboy) is not only working with our chap but also producing lots of successful horses in disciplines eventing and SJ. So when I searched for a broodmare I wanted that line plus some proven competitive results.
It took many many months, some people asked ridiculous amounts of money etc, but eventually I found an ex Intermediate event mare proven broodmare who was the right size and type for my purpose. I paid £6000 for her already in foal to a hosteiner stallion, and she foaled a lovely colt, and is now in foal to our own stallion.
The other broodmare I bought this year was by our now deceased stallion who was by Knockboy, and she had successfully BSJA'd, she was a hot ride and had ended up in a field after frightening her rider, we rode her in a big field when we tried her, she was fine for my daughter a very experienced rider so I bought her for £700.. She is near identical in looks to two of our other broodmares by that stallion but has better conformation, so should in theory produce something possibly as good as the expensive mare..
I think you should look at the possible stallion you want to use first, then search for a broodmare to suit him. Certain traits do pass down from some bloodlines, the Knockboy ones are all talented jumpers but can be fizzy, but suit us because our stallion is ultra sensible.
I can sacrifice the hotness of the bloodline I like because I seem to have eliminated it by my choice of stallion. I would tolerate lameness if an injury, but not any other reason.
What also comes into it is personal preference.
Some people think chesnuts are vulgar, others bays plain, so you have to know what you like yourself and aim for that in a foal.
I don't ever profess to know much about breeding, I chose our original broodmare because after seeing her trot past me on a windy welsh hillside I fell in love on the spot and thought she was the loveliest thing on four legs. She turned out to be a mare professional SJ harangued us to sell to them, but who'd have guessed it from first sight?
Our first stallion I saw as a two year old in a friend's stable, there was just something about him, and I asked the ownere to let me know if she ever wanted to sell him. That was a long time ago and it seemed he was the first Knock Boy stallion in the UK, I didn't know that, I just liked his shape/temperament and he had something about him.. He ended up living with us for 19 years and sired most of our broodmares. Of course now horses by that line are ten a penny..
I would find something that makes your pulse race, and that you just like. Provided it's parents have good comp records then even a yearling is a good prospect. Two of our mares have never competed, but their three siblings have all done well in comps, and their progeny have too, reaching national level in RC and PC champs.
I'm hoping as more yougsters get competing they will prove my hunches for good horses has been right.
Hope this helps, I think you will get different answers from other people to mine, who will say buy the very best you can afford; I think that's fine if you want to breed international horses, I don't, I just want to breed horses who their owners adore and enjoy competing.. Nothing beats the regular updates I get telling me how well they have done and how thrilled they are to own such a horse.. blow the financial side, that's where the real fun is in breeding!
I wouldn't touch anything with early arthritis, navicular or a bad temperament.
 
One important thing people tend to forget about until they register the foal is what studbook papers will you require. It is no good having papers from one studbook for the mare that is not acceptable to the stallion studbook or vice versa. Only choose graded mares from studbooks with high grading standards and a stallion graded by a studbook that requires stallions to have ridden performance for grading.
 
James, every response to date makes perfect sense, but as a tangent to this, at what stage in a mare's life does she become the ideal brood mare?

I'm simply not prepared to spend a fortune on an advanced mare who's reached the end of her ridden career , and has no known breeding history. The foal which she will produce as a 3 year old, will stand a much better chance in life than the foal produced later in life, I suspect. It would be an interesting point to research the ages of the mares, which have produced those horses which have made National or better standards.

Temperament? VITAL! A very well known International dressage rider, and teacher, said to me last week, and I quote "I don't mind riding the horse, providing that I don't have to ride it's brain", and I can see his point. Horses must be trainable.

I bought a relatively inexpensive, and fairly well bred mare from Ireland last year. She was in foal to Puissance, the jumping stallion. She can be a bit crabby when it comes to food. She has a delightful colt foal at foot, and guess what? he's just the same! With luck, at weaning he'll learn some manners.

Whilst I'm not entirely convinced that I'm right, I would suggest, that my constant search for the right foundation mares, should centre around a 3 year old, which my advisors would tell me has an inbuilt and importantly, a jumping, or a dressage ability which is TECHNICALLY correct. If she has good feet, conformation and breeding, then I suppose that should be enough.

Assuming that she exists, this wonderful 3 year old filly is going to cost a great deal of money! Should she be denied a career? There has to be a financial balance. The cost of putting that mare into training, assuming that she foals as a 4 year old, and the foal is weaned when she's rising 5, would be huge, and one which I can't and don't want to consider.

You most certainly aren't being a numpty! It's the eternal question, and one to which those with serious thoughts, might like to assist with. Those small studs in Germany which I visited many years ago had their best mares as youngsters, indeed many were never even backed, or so it seemed to me. Again, the problem with that argument will be, that a filly which shows a very real level of promise will be offered at a cost which will reflect her potential as a competition horse.

We tend to denigrate brood mares, and we really shouldn't. Brood mare selection is VITAL, and it seems to me that the stallion selection, is a relatively simple matter!!

I've rather rambled on, and quite simply, I haven't the faintest idea, which direction we should travel in!!

I have yet to reply to your PM of a few days ago, in part this is it, but I'll be in touch later on today by PM.

Alec.
 
I think what you are saying Alec follows the phrase 'Breed the best, ride the rest'

To me, the fillies I want to retain in my broodmare herd are the ones that are almost too good to waste spending years competing. Their offspring, parents and siblings can prove themselves in competition, I want those super fillies in the broodmare herd.

They will do their ridden performance test though, so have to prove that they have that trainability too, but financially it is not worth me spending a lot of time and money putting them through a high level ridden career and then only get a few foals from them at the end.

My best sport mare (advanced eventer) has only produced 2 foals and we cant get back in foal. And her oldest (now 3) is stunning, I just wish she was 10 years younger so I could have chance to breed a few more like him from her
 
Volatis,

finally the penny, for me, is starting to drop! "Breed from the best and ride the rest", is new to me, but faultless by intention. To date, I have used the odd mare which is proven, in work, and those which I have taken on simply because I liked them, and occasionally because I was sorry for their existing plight. Not really the right way to go about things, is it?!

If I'm to have any success, I think that I need to re-think my breeding strategy. I need to source mares of, perhaps and ideally, 3 years of age, be certain that they have the technical ability, in at least one discipline, that they are of sound mind, that their conformation is reasonably correct, that they have demonstrated an ability to accept training, and perhaps finally, as a bonus, that they have have some level of breeding to support them. For me the last point would probably be the least important, because a good horse is where you find it.

It would seem to me that such a filly, would firstly be very expensive, and then, I would be concerned as to the reason for disposal. Perhaps untried 2 year olds, or even yearlings would be a better bet, and then treat them as stores, do a bit with them, and then assuming that we both like each other, put them in foal.

When we decide upon a change of policy, especially with horses, then what do we do with those which will naturally fall to one side? The idea of sending, relatively young and much loved mares to, God knows where, would be unthinkable. It all needs further thought!

Thank you very much for that, the thinking is becoming clearer!

Alec.
 
I've been asked by the USEA to become a columnist for them writing about breeding Event Horses. The first article they have asked me to write is about selecting your Foundation Broodmares and although this is specifically directed at Event horses the same principles apply broadly regardless of intended discipline.

The focus for me is without doubt motherline. You need the attributes in the mare of athleticism, good conformation and temperament, but what separates the good offspring, from the exceptional ones as a rule, is that the exceptional ones most often originate from families of top performing horses. There's obviously more to it than that, but that's it in a nutshell.

As an example - Cornish Faer, a multiple CCI4* mare has had a number of offspring one who has already gone Advanced and others on the way up. Her dam produced 5 Advanced horses and 3 who went to CCI4*. Her grand-dam jumped 7' in the Puissance at HOYS and was a Grade A showjumper. Cornish Faer and 2 of her daughters who are full sisters, all had foals this year that were presented at the BEF Futurity evaluations where over 100 Event foals were graded.

Daughter no.1 had the Highest Graded Event Foal of the year.
Cornish Faer had the 3rd Highest Graded Event Foal of the year.
Daughter no.2 had the jt 5th Highest Graded Event Foal of the year
- ALL three foals graded with ELITE status
- all three foals were by different stallions.

- co-incidence? I think not. This is a classic example of the potency of a top performing motherline.

Once the articles I write are published by US Eventing I'll set up a blog and post them there too if anyone is interested in reading my musings!
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Julia FSH,

you are absolutely right. In my considered opinion, and PROVIDING that the principle of the plan is correct, then success is the more likely outcome. Take, as an example, your paragraph 3 & 4. Who would be brave enough to argue with that?

Jamesmeade, your thought provoking thread, may well be of more use to British Breeding, than mine!

Very well done, both of you, and thank you.

Alec.
 
Without posting my article chapter and verse it's hard for me to put across all the points that need considering. My article is based around creating an objective framework against which potential broodmares can be scored and evaluated. The framework is designed to drive as much risk as possible of not getting what you want, out of your programme, and building in as much predictability as possible.

IMHO the best prospects are those that have already bred more than one proven offspring. They may be older but they've shown the are mechanically sound breeders, that they pass the required attributes and it wasn't just 1 great offspring who was a freak. With embryo transfer it's possible to keep breeding these mares to much greater ages with no appreciable loss of vigour in the youngstock.

Proven under saddle is a good test of the mare's ability as a ridden sporthorse but until we see the foals she produces we don't know whether she was a freak herself or whether her characteristics are inheritable WITH CONSISTENCY.

Using an unproven ridden horse who is also an unproven breeding animal e.g. a 3/4 yr old introduces two aspects of risk into your programme. Now it might be worth the risk if the mare's siblings, mother and father are outstanding performers (the implication being that she is also likely to share these characteristics), but without this supporting information, she could just be another nice animal who may or may not pass on those attributes.

What I've begun doing in my programme is breeding my best young mares (the ones who demonstrate all the required attributes PLUS come from a very good family) at 3 years old. I do little with mine at 3 years old anyway, so it suits my approach of backing them in their 4 yr old year and producing them as 5 yr olds. This way they have a foal on the ground before they start work themselves. It means I have the next generation already produced (which helps me start to form a view of the quality of the mare as a potential future breeder), but also means I don't have to interrupt her career or spend additional money doing embryo transfer once the mare is in competition work. This way I can prove the mare as a breeding animal and a performance animal.
 
^ But hasn't that been the "traditional" European studbook model? Have a first foal young has a couple of advantages for the program. One, if the mare is not going to be a good producer the breeder can send her straight to the "sell" stream. Two, if the mare goes on for her gradings most books want to to see at least one foal on the ground so the sooner the mare can show a superior offspring the sooner she can attain that goal. (I've also seen mares "on the edge" at inspections move up a level on the strength of a fantastic foal - it doesn't negate an obvious problem but it can bump a mare up from "promising" to "proven".)

I would strongly agree that you're not breeding the individual, you're breeding her genetics. This is not to say a mare with a problem should be bred from as, after all, the problem is the result of her genetics. But we've all seen lovely mares who did not reproduce themselves or, even worse, had some problem they themselves did not possess but which they passed on religiously. (I think this is even more a problem now, when so much can be done to make a horse *look* right. I do wonder how many of those mares that consistently produce, say, foals with crooked legs would be crooked themselves without human intervention.)

I knew a mare that had produced a winning racehorse, a graded stallion, a successful Advanced dressage horse, a Working Hunter that sold for as much as a house, and a spectacular young horse that won on the line but alas, went off the rails due to no fault of his own. All by different stallions, all fantastic. When you look the books are full of such mares. Abdullah's dam also produced a Pan Am (like the Europeans) eventing medallist, another good 3/4* horse, two GP jumpers, and an amateur jumper that went for years packing people around 1.20/1.30. She also produced a couple of good broodmares who did not compete, but were bred from young. Look at Urban Sea . . .

I think the necessity of getting good, proven genetics, not just a good individual is even more important for a small breeder who cannot afford to experiment. That way you win any way - a filly to carry on the program, a potential stallion prospect, or, worst comes to worst, a good gelding to sell as a competition horse.
 
Yes mother line all the way. A German breeder I respect massively (who has plenty of fabulous stock to prove his point) said to me he would rather have a nice mare frmo a fabulous mother line than a lovely mare from an unknwn/unproven motherline.

Its the same in racing, fillies from super solid black type families may never make the track themselves but they are sought after as broodmares because they carry the genetics.

Obviously I would exclude a mare with conformation faults, bad temperament or soundness issues (non accident related ones) but all things being equal I want a proven mother line.

Now, the problem in the UK is the lack of historical record keeping relating to bloodlines which can make it very hard to track successful mare families in the UK foundation stock.
 
Volatis,

further to your fourth paragraph, you have of course, led us, quite neatly, into yet another topic!

We have a nice little flat bred mare, by Miswaki, which makes her a half sister to the dam of See The Stars. I paid my 50 bob, to Wetherbys via a debit card, to see which TB we should put her to. The mare had won a race of no significance, and been placed, several times. The outcome, of course was that, it would be more economical to simply burn money.

Following my investigations, I contacted BEF, and suggested that it would help if we could mirror the Wetherby's system of tracing lineage. The response which I received was, to the effect that, there are so many different, and various registration authorities for Sport Horses, that a clear set of records would be near impossible to realise.

We don't have a centralised body, and if I'm really honest, I for one wouldn't really want one. To be quite truthful, I'd rather listen to you lot!!

Alec.
 
But of course as she's by Miswaki, she's not a half sister, she's simply by the same sire, as are, I'm sure a great many horses.
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(Even so, you can get on Racing Post or similar and easily see what nicks have worked for him so if you were bound and determined to breed the mare you could still likely shorten your odds a bit.)

Which is exactly the point a few people have made and why horses by the same sire are not seen as being half siblings - because it's the motherline that breeders are looking for. Not to denigrate the stallions very important contributions, just to go back to the point made, which you've neatly illustrated.
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BEF has a point, too. Given the relatively small samples and the almost infinite mitigating factors involved in breeding sport horses, the same sort of statistical "bottom line" would be tough for sport horses. That said, that's a version of what the traditional European studbooks have been doing, for decades if not longer. If you know where to look there are stats on things like what walk mark a stallion's get have got on their inspections, which can be cross referenced with the dam's marks and the marks of her other offspring, so you can get an idea if that's a stallion that generally improves the walk.

Interestingly, QHs in the US do something similar but it's completely competition based and similar to the racing and sales stats for TBs. The AQHA publishes constantly updated class results referenced by breeding so you can see at a glance who is dominating every thing from working hunters to reining. But, again, that's only possible because of the centralised system. (Which is supported and popular because of the amount of money available to competitors, which is the by product of the centralised registry and so on . . .)
 
"Those small studs in Germany which I visited many years ago had their best mares as youngsters, indeed many were never even backed, or so it seemed to me" - I have one reservation about this & that is soundness. I have over the years seen a lot of horses struggle to stay sound in anything other then a general hack. Not all have been down to obvious conformation problems. I do though agree with breeding from the good 3yos even if they are not destined to be broodmares until later in life.
 
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