Christmas Livery

As this is the H & H forum I would anticipate that you all read H & H! Last week there was a very interesting article about the difficulties employing yard staff and a possible looming crisis as the industry is currently about 800 staff short.
This, coupled with the new pension regulations, the living wage etc etc will inevitably mean that staff costs will rise. For those of you on livery and expecting (and may be paying for) a 365 day per year service , expect huge rises in your livery bill and maybe yards closing if they cannot recruit staff.
One way to retain staff is to improve their lot ie thoughtfully consider exactly what you expect on major Bank Holidays and being prepared to pay sufficient to attract people to work those days.
 
sport horse said:
As this is the H & H forum I would anticipate that you all read H & H! Last week there was a very interesting article about the difficulties employing yard staff and a possible looming crisis as the industry is currently about 800 staff short.
This, coupled with the new pension regulations, the living wage etc etc will inevitably mean that staff costs will rise. For those of you on livery and expecting (and may be paying for) a 365 day per year service , expect huge rises in your livery bill and maybe yards closing if they cannot recruit staff.
One way to retain staff is to improve their lot ie thoughtfully consider exactly what you expect on major Bank Holidays and being prepared to pay sufficient to attract people to work those days.
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Actually, there are a lot who don't, but I am in the minority and subscribe!. I thought the article was thought provoking and the other scary thing I have personally seen is a lot of big yards going in my area. This is due to getting planning permission. My old yard which was very picturesque with Victorian stables has shut down and is being turned into a house. Another showcentre near me has apparently been sold for building and I understand some other local yards are under heavy threat from builders as well.
 
There is no full or part livery option available from around about 20th Dec - 3rd Jan or any public holidays normally at the yard I'm at, DIY only those days but it's reflected in what's charged. We all help each other out those days and it's a really good atomosphere on the yard round Christmas time :)

The yard also closes at 2pm both Christmas and Boxing Day, which has always irked me a wee bit, but I do understand the reasons why so I get just on with it and work round it.
 
The problem I have is that I too am working Christmas and New Year so need my horse doing because I am working not because it's Christmas.

He's on full livery for the very reason that my job works long hours and my shifts get changed very short notice (ie same day) which makes planning difficult.

I do agree that everyone is entitled to Christmas/new year but plenty of other people aren't getting one either. Luckily one of the liveries has agreed to do my horse on those days.
 
Emmangel said:
Just being nosey here, what do other peoples' yards do at Christmas.

My yard have said they will feed, hay and water only - no turn out or mucking out on Christmas Day and New years Day (full livery yard). Is that normal ?

I will turn out/muck out myself rather than leaving the horses in pooh all day. I know it's everybody's Christmas but I would expect my horses to be skipped out. Am I being a bah humbug ??
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the yard is skipped out and a section hay given - then someone comes down lunch time and another section give -

pm feed given and skip out and last thing hay given - no turnout
 
I'm a YO, my staff work either Christmas or New Year doing two hours on Christmas Day / New Year's Day and a half day the following day. On Christmas Day / New Year's Day the horses are fed and mucked out but not turned out, My OH, Son and I do the yard the rest of the day. The following day the horses go out but come in earlier than normal, again we do the yard in the afternoon and evening. It's hard work for us but the staff all get plenty of time with their families and the horses survive being in for one day especially as they get treats in their feeds!
 
The yard I'm on normally does DIY, part and full livery, on Christmas there are no livery services. The yard will do the morning feed as usual but you have to do everything else yourself.
 
I'm firmly on the side of the yard owner and staff. It is absolutely the yard owner's prerogative how they decide to deal with Christmas Day and from the sounds of it they probably don't have any staff on Christmas Day, whether because they've decided to give them all the day off (in which case, good for them) or because they can't get anyone to work. Imagine being the YO and having to muck out however many horses on your own, on Christmas Day! It is a a huge national holiday, so no surprise normal rules don't apply. It sounds like all the basic needs of the horses will be met, although as an owner I wouldn't want my horse standing in on a dirty bed all day, so I'd be up there myself, with no complaints. It doesn't take long to muck out one or two horses, but it takes a very long time to do a yard full. Yard staff work very hard, all year round, for very little money. Usually they work weekends and bank holidays with no complaint. It is true that you pay for a service when you put your horse on full livery, but I do think people should remember that without people willing to accept the low pay and long hours, this service wouldn't exist. So have a little Christmas spirit people, and let your grooms have a Christmas lie in ;)

Also, it seems like the yard has given plenty of notice. The OP has plenty of time to make alternative arrangements if necessary.
 
I've been on full livery for 20 years, and never been told that the horses wouldn't be mucked out / turned out.

I usually approach the owner before christmas and offer to muck out and bring in, if they're ok to do breakfast and turn out - some yards say yes, some have said don't worry business as usual.

But if someone is doing him as usually, I always leave chocolates / wine as a thank you.
 
The last time I was on part / assisted livery they would turn out the well-behaved ones on Christmas day if the weather was okay, but horses had to wear their turnout rugs etc overnight so they were ready to go and keep them on when they came back in. There was an extra charge, and if it was foul they didn't turn out. They skipped out and added bedding if they were kept in, but not a full muck out. If the weather was suitable, the sensible ones (that wouldn't kick up a fuss) would be left out Christmas Eve to Boxing Day, with prior agreement and suitable shelter and rugs of course.

I think for full livery I would want either skip out or turnout - though I would expect an extra fee. After all people choose full livery because they can't necessarily be there, what if the owner was abroad or something.
 
Our yard is assisted DIY and it works the same on Christmas Day and Boxing Day but you pay double for all services - perfectly sensible if you ask me.

For those saying that yard staff need Christmas Day off - surely there must be more than one person of yard staff available or they could never have a day off all the rest of the year! Some people may be happy to work Christmas Day for extra cash - I don't really see why that cannot be done if you operate a full livery service. I do have sympathy for on site YOs who want to close the yard early - as otherwise they could have people trampling all over their property all day on Christmas Day, which must be a bit dreary.

To be clear, I'd expect to pay a good bit extra for 'normal service' on Christmas Day.
 
The last sizeable livery yard I was on used to turn all the horses out on Christmas Eve, and they came in on the 27th. They were hayed in the field and as the yard owners lived on site, they were checked periodically.
 
When I used to work with horses (albeit at a riding school not a livery yard) we were expected to look after the horses as normal. There were no lessons and we were allowed to go home between t/o and catch in, but that still left 15 horses to feed, rug change, turnout, muck out, bring in later hay feed and put to bed, and only one or 2 members of staff were on so you'd sometimes be doing it alone. Our only compensation was a day off in lieu because we'd worked a bank holiday.

And that was just what we did, it would never have occurred to us to leave the mucking out...

There are plenty of people who have to do their jobs on Christmas Day, and I'd not be impressed if the yard neglected my horse for a day because it was Christmas - what if you were abroad?!
 
My last full livery yard 6 years ago, Xmas eve all horses were out, rugged up and left out till boxing day - if you wanted your horse in on Xmas day you did your own stables.
 
Lammy said:
That sounds terrible! If they're up there anyway to feed/hay/water does it really take that much longer to turn horses out?
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yes, it can take ages to turn out once you've figured in rug changes-then someone has to come back after dinner and bring them all in again, change rugs etc. In a yard of say 40 horses, it can take over an hour to turn out for 4 staff. If owners care that much they should go and exercise their own but honestly, most horses should be able to cope with a day in!

Whenever I groomed, we did not turn out at any yard but we did muck out full liveries (makes Boxing Day so much harder if you don't). I don't remember being paid more when salaried-deal was you got xmas or NY. When I was freelancing I did charge double time and could earn loads over the xmas and new year period..
 
Animals don't do holidays. Farmers still feed and water their animals and milk the cows. DIY/part may be entitled to take it off but full livery who offer 354days service otherwise need to employ freelance grooms if they don't want to do the work..
 
sport horse said:
As this is the H & H forum I would anticipate that you all read H & H! Last week there was a very interesting article about the difficulties employing yard staff and a possible looming crisis as the industry is currently about 800 staff short.
This, coupled with the new pension regulations, the living wage etc etc will inevitably mean that staff costs will rise. For those of you on livery and expecting (and may be paying for) a 365 day per year service , expect huge rises in your livery bill and maybe yards closing if they cannot recruit staff.
One way to retain staff is to improve their lot ie thoughtfully consider exactly what you expect on major Bank Holidays and being prepared to pay sufficient to attract people to work those days.
Click to expand...

no, I don't read H&H, there's very little in it to interest me these days. tbh staff working conditions and pay have always been dismal for 90% of people-working on xmas day is the least of their worries and I am not sure slightly improving one day a year would help that much-although it would be nice.

If people actually paid a real going rate for their livery, many would not be able to afford it. I know prices have gone up a bit in recent years but it was long overdue.
 
Possum said:
When I used to work with horses (albeit at a riding school not a livery yard) we were expected to look after the horses as normal. There were no lessons and we were allowed to go home between t/o and catch in, but that still left 15 horses to feed, rug change, turnout, muck out, bring in later hay feed and put to bed, and only one or 2 members of staff were on so you'd sometimes be doing it alone. Our only compensation was a day off in lieu because we'd worked a bank holiday.

And that was just what we did, it would never have occurred to us to leave the mucking out...

There are plenty of people who have to do their jobs on Christmas Day, and I'd not be impressed if the yard neglected my horse for a day because it was Christmas - what if you were abroad?!
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But it's not like they're just not doing the horses. They have given the owners plenty of notice (over a month till Christmas) that full service will not be happening on that day, so the owners can make alternate arrangements if they don't want to do the jobs themselves. Is it just me who thinks that owners ought to take some responsibility for their horses, even if they are paying for full livery?? I mean, it is one day of the year, let the yard owner (and staff) have a break!!
 
When I was on full livery it was business as usual. Which was lucky as I was working Xmas day. I did have to pay extra which was fine by me. The whole point of being on full livery was someone to care for my horse when I couldn't. Now I rent my own place so I will do them myself with help from OH.
 
As someone who is rarely in the same country over Christmas and even if I was, can't get up to the yard as the trains don't run I can honestly say this whole issue has made me dread Christmas.

Some yards I have been on don't offer livery at all on Christmas Day, others have offered it a much higher price, double or more which is fine IMO.

However, I think not mucking out is not acceptable. Either as a yard you say we can't 't provide livery so make your own arrangements or it's done properly. If rug changes are an issue I would be happy for my horses to stay in turnouts for a couple of days. I like the leave in a field for 2 days option too but turnout is something that seems to be rationed round here.

I feel this way because one of my horses is very wet and dirty and his usual bed after overnight looks like most horse's after a week. If you don't turn him out you really need to muck out twice a day, he is so disgusting. When he was on box rest, I was on 5 day livery and also mucking out after work again. The other gets fat legs if he doesn't go out so while I understand the not turning out it does cause problems.

When I only had one at 2 yards I had friends who were away over the new year so they did mine on Christmas day and I did theirs New Years Day. Now it's more difficult to beg favours with 2 big dirty horses and no one seems to be away at new year and needing favours in return.

Current yard doesn't offer anything, year 1 my old yard manager was doing some cover at another yard nearby and I offered her a large sum to pop in and do mine on the way. Last year I paid the same amount to someone on the yard. Both times I suggested leave turnouts on to save time but I don't think they did. Not sure if that is an option this year as last year one developed cellulitis on boxing day and probably now no one wants the responsibility.
 
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We have a nice arrangement at our yard (full livery). It's a family owned and run yard, so the staff all get the day off and the family all pitch in to do the whole yard (30 horses) but liveries are asked if they would be willing to do their own mucking out and other chores that day. The more who do, the easier it is for the YO to get done. Liveries can turn out if they want but must also commit to bringing in. Lots of liveries help out, most double up and help each other at either end of the day and somehow the whole business of horse care turns into a bit of a christmas party. Sherry and mince pies with added mucking out .... !
 
HashRouge said:
I'm firmly on the side of the yard owner and staff. It is absolutely the yard owner's prerogative how they decide to deal with Christmas Day and from the sounds of it they probably don't have any staff on Christmas Day, whether because they've decided to give them all the day off (in which case, good for them) or because they can't get anyone to work. Imagine being the YO and having to muck out however many horses on your own, on Christmas Day! It is a a huge national holiday, so no surprise normal rules don't apply. It sounds like all the basic needs of the horses will be met, although as an owner I wouldn't want my horse standing in on a dirty bed all day, so I'd be up there myself, with no complaints. It doesn't take long to muck out one or two horses, but it takes a very long time to do a yard full. Yard staff work very hard, all year round, for very little money. Usually they work weekends and bank holidays with no complaint. It is true that you pay for a service when you put your horse on full livery, but I do think people should remember that without people willing to accept the low pay and long hours, this service wouldn't exist. So have a little Christmas spirit people, and let your grooms have a Christmas lie in ;)

Also, it seems like the yard has given plenty of notice. The OP has plenty of time to make alternative arrangements if necessary.
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Completely agree!
 
3OldPonies said:
Can't see any excuse for compromising welfare just because its Christmas sounds v. lazy to me. Well done you OP for sorting out your own horse, shame about the lack of turn out though - the horses don't know its a special day for humans, they'll just be bored to tears and not understand why.
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This ^^ I would rather pay extra for staff to be paid extra to sort my horse out properly on Xmas day, not all people want to have family time and some people like myself don't celebrate xmas at all and would be happy to work it!! Plenty of decent freelance grooms out there who will!! If I had a yard it would be business as normal for the horses even if I did the work myself on that day. I just don't get why the horse should be compromised because it's christmas....take a leaf out of the dairy industry, those cows can't just be left on 25th dec.....
 
When I was a YO, some of the horses were mine, some were full liveries, some were part, some DIY and some belonged to my WPs.

I gave my WPs the choice of working either Christmas or New Year - they had a week off, but were to work out between the 3 of them who was to cover which week.

They couldn't decide between them, so I got fed up and sent them all home for Christmas. None of them was local so they each left their horse(s) behind.

I did all 17 for the whole week. Happy Christmas!
 
My yard owner will not turnout on Christmas and no one is allowed to turn out either, this came about after turning a horse out on Christmas Day and it careered off, slipped and shattered it's leg.
Horrific having to phone the owner on xmas day to say the vet was on their way o put the horse down.
Oh and most vets charge at least triple time on xmas day so for us that means a call out fee of nearly £200 alone.
So now horses stay safely in their stables, it's nothing unusual for them as the sometime spend random days in when the fields flood or the weather is horrific.
Hay and water are given morning and evening.
 
maisie06 said:
This ^^ I would rather pay extra for staff to be paid extra to sort my horse out properly on Xmas day, not all people want to have family time and some people like myself don't celebrate xmas at all and would be happy to work it!! Plenty of decent freelance grooms out there who will!! If I had a yard it would be business as normal for the horses even if I did the work myself on that day. I just don't get why the horse should be compromised because it's christmas....take a leaf out of the dairy industry, those cows can't just be left on 25th dec.....
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Or.......owners could *shock horror* sort their own horses out on christmas day or make other arrangements. Why does it have to be livery service as normal or a compromise of horses welfare? Why cant owners play their part to?

I get its a service that you pay for but as in the OP if the YO is prepared to do the basics (feed, water, hay) then I dont see why the owners cant do their bit for just one day of the year if they're that concerned about their horse not being mucked out or turned out ? I wouldnt want my horses stood in their own muck for 24hrs but I would happily muck out myself. Its Christmas for everyone after all
 
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I've had four emergency callouts, two on bank holidays (easter and christmas), two friday evenings and they were injuries that happened when stabled so it can happen anytime. Our vets charge double call out fee on bank holidays, weekend and evening but other charges are the same.
 
conniegirl said:
My yard owner will not turnout on Christmas and no one is allowed to turn out either, this came about after turning a horse out on Christmas Day and it careered off, slipped and shattered it's leg.
Horrific having to phone the owner on xmas day to say the vet was on their way o put the horse down.
Oh and most vets charge at least triple time on xmas day so for us that means a call out fee of nearly £200 alone.
So now horses stay safely in their stables, it's nothing unusual for them as the sometime spend random days in when the fields flood or the weather is horrific.
Hay and water are given morning and evening.
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We also had the same on boxing day. Horse broke its leg in the field. What a horrible Xmas. A
There was skeleton staff on too so very stressful all round. Then the on call vet took hours to come as was already at an emergency.

From that moment on I have always said no turn out Xmas day, boxing day and new years day. Basically the days myself and my staff would also like some family time. We are there 365 days a year and we will still be there on these days but only for the minmum time. We do not exercise liveries on Xmas day. We do lunge on boxing day and new years day.
We still muck out the full liveries both ends of the day having given them extra bedding on xmas eve.
We leave them on day beds with plenty of hay and treat balls and go back around 6pm , skip out , bed down and put to bed. I think this is more than fair.
All part liveries are diy on these days, its in the contract.
If the part liveries want the horse done am and pm its £50.
 
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