Christmas Livery

HashRouge said:
Seriously???
The YO provides the service, it is up to them to decide what the terms of that service are. If they want to have a bit of a break on Christmas Day, that is 100% their prerogative. As a horse owner, if you know you will be away at Christmas, you need to make sure that full livery will be available on that day when you move onto the yard. According to you, the YO has to provide care on Christmas Day because they choose to run a full livery service...but the horse owner chooses to own a horse, they have to accept responsibility for that horse! I can understand keeping a horse on full livery, but I can't understand the absolute horror expressed by some posters on this thread that they might, one day a year, be expected to care for their own horse. If the YO wants to provide a full service on Christmas Day, fair enough. If not, that is their right so long as they give the owner plenty of notice, which they have done in the YO's case.

Also, I don't understand why people seem to think the YO is compromising the welfare of the horses. They have simply said that they won't be mucking out on Christmas Day, but the owner is welcome to muck the horse out themselves or make alternate arrangements.

Personally, I wouldn't just expect someone to muck my horse out on Christmas Day, full livery or no. If I knew I would be going away for Christmas, I would make sure I knew well in advance whether or not normal service was provided, so that I could make alternate arrangements if need be. But then again, maybe it's because I've worked as a full time groom and understand how hard people work in the equine industry, and for how little money.
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*applause*

You made the choice to have horses. Why cant you take some responsibility for them for just one day? You could swear the YO was totally refusing to give the horses any care at all. If you really are so bothered about the horses being mucked out or turned out then either do it yourself or move to another yard.
 
Little lack of Christmas spirit it would seem. I accept someone working shifts might struggle but it can be worked around. I didn't turn mine out today. He was hacked this morning and has survived being in all day.
 
I'd say its something that YOs should mention initially rather than later on. When I had my horse for three years on full livery my parents lived 300 miles away and as I was single I visited them for the festive period.

Thankfully OP in this case seems to be able to go visit her horse and muck it out and/or turn out on xmas day..

And as an aside. .. I've had emergency vet visits on both xmas day and NY day because of turnout incidents :( but we still turnout on those days if we are going to be at home and weather is suitable. . Think hubby might shoot the self harming TB himself if she does it again though ...

Fiona
 
I work on two livery yards and have my own at a different yard. At my horses yard there are no services Christmas Eve, Xmas day, boxing day. At one of my work yards my friend is working at £10 an hour and I am helping. At the other I am doing Christmas Day freelance at a cost of £20 a horse.

I understand that horses are not a 9-5 job and that they do not understand Christmas. However we work very hard, every day of the year come rain or shine for a very poor wage. Having one day off for family is hardly laziness, it's hardly inexcusable when everyone else is doing the same thing. I will be working for the money, it will pay for my families Christmas presents

On Christmas day I will be getting up early and going to do my own horse. I will then be off to my first yard of the day to do the full liveries. I will then be going to the yard I am doing freelance to turn out, muck out and poo pick at least 7 horses. I will then be going back to the other yard to help my friend muck out more horses. I will pop back home (half an hour drive away) to catch Christmas lunch with my family then back to both yards to bring in and put to bed. I will then go to my own yard, ride and put mine to bed.

I am doing that because I care about the horses and because I want their owners to have a day for themselves. I just hope they're grateful that I am giving up my day to care for their horses.
 
Our yard is business as usual, except they come in at 2pm instead of 4pm. I'm on part/full and I'd absolutely expect services on Christmas Day - although I'd also be happy to pay a supplement.

As someone who is single and lives hundreds of miles from the nearest family, my Christmas would be pretty dire if I had to stay home alone every Christmas in order to muck out. Taking responsibility for your horse means making sure the care gets done - not necessarily by you! - so frankly yards should make the most of it and charge what the service is worth.

As someone perfectly prepared to pay a fair price for livery, I have no sympathy for YOs who undercharge all year then complain about delivering services at Christmas. Charge properly for a 365 service and pass your costs on! I'd be very much in favour of paying more to ensure good staff got a decent wage - all year round.
 
I am a nurse and I have worked a lot at Christmas, when my kids where small etc. My family live 150 miles a way, some times you just can not go, tough.
I have used DIY most of my horse owning life, like most people if you really want something you do the work, no one apart from my daughters have ever done my horses, but one Christmas once we ended up doing four plus our own. I made sure my daughters got paid, but not nearly what they would have to pay a freelance groom. So no drink for me until last horses.
If I work Christmas I get paid extra, if you go anywhere at Christmas its extra and I can not understand why anyone would not expect to pay extra for services at Christmas,
If YO charged the going rate for the services there would be very few people who would want a horse. A posh coffee costs £2.25 and the glass of plonk you drink in a pub £3+, but every one seems to want to pay as little as possible for livery. Thank goodness I do not need to have liveries, and yes I will be doing my own Christmas day.
 
Theocat said:
Our yard is business as usual, except they come in at 2pm instead of 4pm. I'm on part/full and I'd absolutely expect services on Christmas Day - although I'd also be happy to pay a supplement.

As someone who is single and lives hundreds of miles from the nearest family, my Christmas would be pretty dire if I had to stay home alone every Christmas in order to muck out. Taking responsibility for your horse means making sure the care gets done - not necessarily by you! - so frankly yards should make the most of it and charge what the service is worth.

As someone perfectly prepared to pay a fair price for livery, I have no sympathy for YOs who undercharge all year then complain about delivering services at Christmas. Charge properly for a 365 service and pass your costs on! I'd be very much in favour of paying more to ensure good staff got a decent wage - all year round.
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I think you may be in the minority here. We see plenty of posts on here of people already claiming the livery is too high.
I'm sure if I go to the yard tomorrow and announce a big rise in livery to pay the staff more I won't be met with the best response sadly.
And I think this is the case across a lot of yards , people don't want to pay what they really should unfortunately.
If you compare livery price to putting a dog in the kennels, livery is far too cheap.
 
If it was full (or possibly part) livery, I'd be annoyed honesty. Full livery should mean full livery, regardless of the day. Yes, I can understand not turning out - but to refuse to muck out IMHO isn't acceptable.
 
I cannot agree that any horse is more likely to injure itself in a field I have seen in 50 years of horse ownership both in and out far more illnesses and injuries from being stable too long than I have ever seen in a grass kept horse. only colic I have ever had was bringing a pony into a stable to wean its foal I should have stuck to instinct and done it in the field. To suggest vets recommend box rest to prevent injury is an total mis leading statement the only recommend it to restrict movement the same effect can be achieved in a small pen in a field weather permitting. Most injuries occur during ridden work and competeing, or maybe by bad pasture management allowing a horse to get caught in fencing or having holes in fields. Broken legs, a broken back, severe tears in tendons in more than one leg all caused by getting cast in a stable. One horse ripped its foot off under a stable door and bled to death I know there are injuries in fields usually happen when horses are first turned out after a period in a stable so they to can be attributed to stabling. for the last 10 years mine have lived out 24/7 touch wood without a single problem not even a small cut. They are settled rarely run about and are in a stable group so no kicking and biting
 
My old yard (part livery) the owners clubbed together to give YO the day off. Those who did not go away helped. Ie 1 person turned out. 1 person brought in. Anyone else who could did what they could. So not a huge yard 15 horses all got done and turner out for a few hours. It was an unusual yard as the YO and groom treated the horses as their own, would groom pet and generally really look after the horses. This meant the liveries were so happy they would gibe the YO and groom time off. It was quite jolly, I only helped one year a family all far away but other liveries did not hold it against me!
 
honetpot said:
I am a nurse and I have worked a lot at Christmas, when my kids where small etc. My family live 150 miles a way, some times you just can not go, tough.
I have used DIY most of my horse owning life, like most people if you really want something you do the work, no one apart from my daughters have ever done my horses, but one Christmas once we ended up doing four plus our own. I made sure my daughters got paid, but not nearly what they would have to pay a freelance groom. So no drink for me until last horses.
If I work Christmas I get paid extra, if you go anywhere at Christmas its extra and I can not understand why anyone would not expect to pay extra for services at Christmas,
If YO charged the going rate for the services there would be very few people who would want a horse. A posh coffee costs £2.25 and the glass of plonk you drink in a pub £3+, but every one seems to want to pay as little as possible for livery. Thank goodness I do not need to have liveries, and yes I will be doing my own Christmas day.
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I think everyone is saying that they would be happy to pay extra for Christmas (or will do it themselves) but the issues is if they can't do it so there horse won't be turned out or mucked out. Even more of an issue for Criso who's full livery yard won't allow her to pay a freelance groom onsite to muck out give her horse a leg stretch.
 
windand rain said:
I cannot agree that any horse is more likely to injure itself in a field I have seen in 50 years of horse ownership both in and out far more illnesses and injuries from being stable too long than I have ever seen in a grass kept horse. only colic I have ever had was bringing a pony into a stable to wean its foal I should have stuck to instinct and done it in the field. To suggest vets recommend box rest to prevent injury is an total mis leading statement the only recommend it to restrict movement the same effect can be achieved in a small pen in a field weather permitting. Most injuries occur during ridden work and competeing, or maybe by bad pasture management allowing a horse to get caught in fencing or having holes in fields. Broken legs, a broken back, severe tears in tendons in more than one leg all caused by getting cast in a stable. One horse ripped its foot off under a stable door and bled to death I know there are injuries in fields usually happen when horses are first turned out after a period in a stable so they to can be attributed to stabling. for the last 10 years mine have lived out 24/7 touch wood without a single problem not even a small cut. They are settled rarely run about and are in a stable group so no kicking and biting
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I am not going to alter my view or turn out on Christmas day. It's one day in. They stayed in today due to weather and were fine ( on owners request)
Our horses have superb grazing,post and rail fencing and no holes! They do run about at times as they are all competition horses that are clipped and fit so are more likely to have a run about.
The horse that broke is leg on Xmas day was also in a good field, with grass . she slipped whilst cantering over for hay. She was also out 24/7.
But this post isn't about the wrongs and rights of turn out, what suits one doesn't suit the next. It's about Christmas day and I really don't think it harms to leave in for a couple of days to allow the hard working staff a few hours with their families on Xmas day .
I do not agree with not mucking our but there are many horses that are barn kept and not mucked out daily that survive.
 
I should clarify that I wasn't just talking about my current yard but experiences at different yards over the last 8 years. Where I am now horses can go out if you turn them out and bring them in yourself. There are simply no services at all.

And I'm on 5 day not full livery and I completely sympathise with the yard manager wanting time off and not wanting to work Christmas and Boxing day. However I can't get there, as I said not won't but can't. Even if I did not join my family who live abroad and spent Christmas alone, I get to the yard by train and they don't run.

Problem is its a small mixed yard (4 other liveries as a couple of boxes empty), and I have 2 horses so it's a lot to ask someone to do them even if you offer to pay. And the emergency vet call out boxing day (when stabled) last year won't have helped. On bigger yards it's easier to find people to swap favours with though still difficult. It's easy to say move but there is no perfect yard and do I compromise on their care and environment all year for 2 days?

I completely understand the security concerns as I would have to give details of how various bits of the yard are secured to a complete stranger - how would you feel if I gave the code to where your saddle is kept to someone I'd found on facebook - but it may come to that.
 
I agree, it is totally up to YO to decide what services they are willing to provide and when. If it is normally 7 day livery except for xmas and boxing day then they need to be up front with potential customers and make it clear that they won't be providing those services on xmas and boxing day. If they also will not allow a freelance groom or non livery to come in and cover those days then they also need to be clear about that too.

In Criso's situation where they are not offering any services so not even basics such as feeding and watering, I would sit down and have a chat with the YO and see if you can come up with an option that is acceptable to both of you, it might be that the YO knows a trusted freelancer or friend who would be willing to cover over xmas that she would allow on the yard. I think in your situation where you have two horses on the yard and you are a 5 day livery and there is empty boxes you are in a stronger case because your YO may not want to lose you as a customer and may give in and allow you to get a freelancer in or see if she would be willing to let you leave them out for a couple of days with loads of hay and then see if one of the other liveries would be willing to do a field check for you. If the freelancer doesn't ride then they may not need to be given the code to the tack room. Also if you were able to find out what times the other liveries were coming and were able to arrange your freelancer to come at the same times perhaps they would not need to know all the codes for getting on to the yard as the other liveries could let them in and lock up. The only other option I can think of would be to try and find a yard that takes on holiday liveries and book both horses in there for the time you are away - but this would probably be very expensive as you would be paying for livery at both yards and the holiday livery may have a minimum amount of time you have to stay there for such as a week.

There are quite a lot of people who don't celebrate Christmas and would be pleased to work for extra money over the festive times, as they celebrate their religious holidays at a different time of year. Unfortunately a lot of these people who have different faiths or religions are from ethnic minorities which are very under represented in the horse world both as horse owners and working on yards.
 
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Some people need to remember they are horses. In my opinion family always comes first. I also want to have a drink on xmas so driving to a yard a pain. When I was a kid it was a real bind and I would walk to the yard to do it as parents were having fun. This year we have horses at home but need to be away as family over from Australia. I am planning to leave them out, they are out mostly anyway. Leave plenty of hay in the feeder. They will be checked xmas eve am and then back late boxing day or following am. Farmer will cast eye over them when checking the sheep to make sure no legs hanging off. May sound a little unfeeling but they are animals not people. other animals the same, chickens locked in a large stable with lots of food and water. Cats big pile of food and water. All survive quite happily.
 
Limbo1 said:
Some people need to remember they are horses. In my opinion family always comes first. I also want to have a drink on xmas so driving to a yard a pain. When I was a kid it was a real bind and I would walk to the yard to do it as parents were having fun. This year we have horses at home but need to be away as family over from Australia. I am planning to leave them out, they are out mostly anyway. Leave plenty of hay in the feeder. They will be checked xmas eve am and then back late boxing day or following am. Farmer will cast eye over them when checking the sheep to make sure no legs hanging off. May sound a little unfeeling but they are animals not people. other animals the same, chickens locked in a large stable with lots of food and water. Cats big pile of food and water. All survive quite happily.
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I think this is completely fine, it's horses being left in without even a leg stretch or a skip out.
 
Emmangel said:
Just being nosey here, what do other peoples' yards do at Christmas.

My yard have said they will feed, hay and water only - no turn out or mucking out on Christmas Day and New years Day (full livery yard). Is that normal ?

I will turn out/muck out myself rather than leaving the horses in pooh all day. I know it's everybody's Christmas but I would expect my horses to be skipped out. Am I being a bah humbug ??
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Yes, you're being a bah humbug! Embrace horse ownership, even if it is for only 2 days a year.
 
Mine are at home so not an issue, but I would be very unimpressed with full livery being basically every day except the one where it would be really hard / expensive to get cover. Unless it's made really clear upfront I would expect service as usual. Maybe not riding/ training services and ok with skip out over muck out, no rug changes etc, but the essentials that mean an owner can still choose whether they want to come up or not rather than feeling like they have to should happen regardless of what day it is. mine would go crazy with over 24 hours in so I would consider turnout a required essential.
Yes, your horse's care is your responsibility but paying for full livery is taking responsibility for the care and in taking on full liveries the YO should therefore be making sure that they/ their staff / some other contractor can provide the required service every day and factor that into their regular rates. Great if liveries can lighten the load at Christmas but that should be as a gesture of kindness from those who wish to offer it , not a scheduled plan of inadequate service.
 
I often wonder how much people would find to be fair rate per week for full livery, and if they would accept double time being asked for all bank holidays, even if spread out over the year. I used to work in residential child care, many years ago, and the LA found that they had to start paying for bankholidays and overtime, as otherwise they couldn't get people to apply for the jobs. Until people are prepared to pay enough for Yard owners to pay staff properly and make a pofit, then this sort of problem will continue. To those people who say their family live away etc. it is always possible that this is the case for yard staff too, do you not think?
 
At the time I was full livery it was £185 a week. I paid extra for Xmas day. Not for other bank holidays though. I wouldn't have minded. I work a fair few bank holidays and get double time so wouldn't mind paying more to have my horse looked after.
 
That works out at about just over £800 which is quite a lot of money - just wondering what you got for that. Did it include exercise, tack cleaning, grooming as in traditional full livery or was it more like part livery without grooming and exercise? What facilities did you get as well.

Copperpot said:
At the time I was full livery it was £185 a week. I paid extra for Xmas day. Not for other bank holidays though. I wouldn't have minded. I work a fair few bank holidays and get double time so wouldn't mind paying more to have my horse looked after.
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Copperpot said:
At the time I was full livery it was £185 a week. I paid extra for Xmas day. Not for other bank holidays though. I wouldn't have minded. I work a fair few bank holidays and get double time so wouldn't mind paying more to have my horse looked after.
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Minimum wage, for about 3 hours a day (assuming staff groom and exercise) per horse, on seven days full livery is 157 pounds, leaves 28 pounds for feed, bedding,, maintenance and any profit for the yard!
 
SO1 said:
That works out at about just over £800 which is quite a lot of money - just wondering what you got for that. Did it include exercise, tack cleaning, grooming as in traditional full livery or was it more like part livery without grooming and exercise? What facilities did you get as well.
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That included everything except shoes and feed. Tack cleaning, exercise etc
 
YorksG said:
Minimum wage, for about 3 hours a day (assuming staff groom and exercise) per horse, on seven days full livery is 157 pounds, leaves 28 pounds for feed, bedding,, maintenance and any profit for the yard!
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I had to provide his feed. It was a small yard with only 2 people running it. That was the price they set, so can only assume they were happy with it.
 
YorksG said:
Minimum wage, for about 3 hours a day (assuming staff groom and exercise) per horse, on seven days full livery is 157 pounds, leaves 28 pounds for feed, bedding,, maintenance and any profit for the yard!
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How many people have full livery including exercise though? Mine gets turned out on a morning for me and it takes me about 30 mins to muck out, do waters, hay, feeds and bring in.

I know when I was working with horses for a living I was phenomenally fit and incredibly efficient. I used to muck out and turn out a yard of 14, with another person, in an hour. They were on minimal bedding and rubber mats which helped a bit, as well as automatic waters, but mainly it was set up to be easy and we just got on with it. Probably took us 3 hours to do the yard over the course of a day, including hay and feeds etc.
 
YorksG said:
Until people are prepared to pay enough for Yard owners to pay staff properly and make a pofit, then this sort of problem will continue. To those people who say their family live away etc. it is always possible that this is the case for yard staff too, do you not think?
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If you choose to offer full livery, you should price it properly and staff it as required - exactly as any other service industry does. If you choose to work with horses, you accept you are entering 365 day a year industry - just like nurses, fireman, hospitality and catering, care ...

If people choose to keep horses, it ought to be open to them to pay for support when they need it to make ownership possible, because that's a service people ought to be able to make a living on.

From comments on this thread, the issue doesn't seem to be that people are unwilling to pay, it seems to be that YOs are unwilling to charge - and for an industry that finds it so difficult to run at a profit, I find this whole discussion pretty extraordinary.
 
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