Churchill downs

[toppedoff]

12 horse deaths in 2 months for 1 track and a racehorse trainer, staffie joseph suspended at the track a few weeks ago due to 2 of his horses had died in what is deemed unusual

a meeting to be held to look at whats going on

Churchill Downs horse deaths: Emergency summit set by HISA after 12th equine fatality at the track in a month

Horseracing Integrity and Safety Authority (HISA) is stepping in as problems mount in Louisville

www.cbssports.com

 

[SilverLinings]

That sounds awful, but what is the death rate usually on artificial tracks in the US? I'm not saying any number is acceptable, just wonder whether 12 is a few or a lot more than usual. It is good that they are looking into it, as long as any recommendations are actually acted upon.

 

[toppedoff]

That sounds awful, but what is the death rate usually on artificial tracks in the US? I'm not saying any number is acceptable, just wonder whether 12 is a few or a lot more than usual. It is good that they are looking into it, as long as any recommendations are actually acted upon.

i cant really find anything, 12 for 1 track seems to be alot in any sort of area (sorry my post doesnt look clear now that i posted it) ill keep looking for the rate of deaths, i think itd be interesting to compare

 

[SilverLinings]

I stand to be corrected but I believe that racing on artificial surfaces is faster than racing on turf (although that would obviously depend on the type and depth of the surface) which is likely to have an impact on the frequency and/or severity of injuries. I don't know much about racing in the US, but as it is usually on an artificial surface does that mean that there is no 'season' and that they continue all year round? That question isn't necessarily aimed at you @toppedoff , just musing about the fact that it is quite a different industry to racing in the UK. Also I believe that racing yards/trainers are often based at the tracks, so if the death rate includes training deaths then it may be difficult to compare to UK track deaths.

 

[toppedoff]

147 in USA, says it doesnt include retired racehorse deaths but i think is of any racehorse in training, it has a small summary of each death

Racehorse deaths 2023

List of racehorses that have died in incidents or have been killed after an incident on or at horse racing courses in the USA, UK, Australia, Ireland and Dubai in 2023.

www.wikianimal.org

 

[SilverLinings]

So it sounds like 12 in two months is very high compared to the average.

 

[toppedoff]

I stand to be corrected but I believe that racing on artificial surfaces is faster than racing on turf (although that would obviously depend on the type and depth of the surface) which is likely to have an impact on the frequency and/or severity of injuries. I don't know much about racing in the US, but as it is usually on an artificial surface does that mean that there is no 'season' and that they continue all year round? That question isn't necessarily aimed at you @toppedoff , just musing about the fact that it is quite a different industry to racing in the UK. Also I believe that racing yards/trainers are often based at the tracks, so if the death rate includes training deaths then it may be difficult to compare to UK track deaths.

yeah, thats what i was thinking im quite new to the world of racing so thought itd be interesting to see what others say

 

[SilverLinings]

@Elf On A Shelf would be able to help I'm sure, hopefully they will join the thread at some point!

 

[toppedoff]

@Elf On A Shelf would be able to help I'm sure, hopefully they will join the thread at some point!

what i hope too!

I feel the ground could be a contributor but im not so sure, i would say drugs could have a play but its weird it is just one track having a massive spike?

 

[SilverLinings]

The fact it is (apparently) only one track could be explained by the going, local weather conditions, the size/shape/direction of the track, the trainers it attracts and/or the type of races it runs. The fact that a trainer has been suspended points to him currently being seen as a significant factor. I don't know what the attitude towards drugs is in US racing, in the UK it is very strict, with regular random testing.

 

[GSD Woman]

Santa Anita had a horrible record for horse deaths in a previous year.

From what I've read British racehorses are kept very differently. Riding out and not always being worked on a track and the tracks being turf have to help a lot. JMO.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

American racing is very very very different to British racing and its not something I know much about.

I doubt the track is any different to what it has been for decades. Unless they maybe have a new Harrow that is doing a bad job?

If a trainer has a higher percentage of deaths than others then I would look to see what they are doing. Are they doing all the basic work or are they kicking on with more strenuous work before the horses are ready?

I'm sure it was Churchill Downs that took a stance a good few years ago and banned raceway drugs for 2yo's which had a lot of trainers up in arms.

I do expect part of the problem is the breeding now. I think we have got to the point where we can't keep using the fastest horses regardless of conformation as it is costing them their lives.

 

[reynold]

Could it be related to the fact that american racing is all round one direction, anti-clockwise? Horses are trained on the track and also in training only really go one way.

In the UK there is racing in both directions even on the all weather tracks, although most of the all weather are in the same direction as the US but I know Kempton is in the other direction to say Lingfield/Newcastle.

I totally agree that breeding 'rabbits' with finer and finer bone is no longer acceptable but as with the law of supply and demand if people are still prepared to pay £££s for the youngstock with bad legs and feet and continue to use the stallions/mares with poor conformation then they will continue to be bred.

Strong stallions with good soundness are around but often are not fashionable. Stradivarius springs to mind. Raced at top class for 8 (?) seasons and remained sound (admittedly with a genius trainer). It will be interesting to see if he 'takes' as a stallion. I somehow doubt it but his soundness as a cross could be a good injection of blood into the gene pool.

The days of the small and caring owner breeder seem to be vitually over. Kirsten Rausing, Nielsen, and a few others still go on alongside the Juddmonte and Shadwell operations. I don't count Coolmore in the list of 'nice' breeders as they are totally money oriented bunch with the 'throw 6 into a race and hope one wins' attitude. It will be interesting to see how they get on now that Gallileo is no more and his influence starts to fade.

 

[SibeliusMB]

Santa Anita had a nightmare streak recently and I think weather that year had something to do with it. I haven't been keeping up with the weather back home in KY, but that could potentially be a factor as I believe Churchill is still a dirt (non synthetic) surface.

US horses do gallop and breeze left (counter clockwise) during their training on the track, but do all their slower gaits to the right. Slowest horses (walk, trot, canter?) on the far outside rail tracking right, those galloping/breezing down on the inside going left. So while they always race left, it's not like they only ever go left and have a complete imbalance of muscle/bone/soft tissue strength. As Elf said, Churchill (and Keeneland down the road in Lexington), banned the use of race-day Lasix on 2 year olds, but I'd be curious how many are still training on Lasix and if that has any correlation to breakdowns. IIRC, I don't think there's been a direct correlation before, but I am not embedded in the racing industry.

Part of the bigger issue in US racing is that there is no nationwide racing authority, each state makes its own rules. There has been a movement to establish one, especially following Santa Anita, but I don't know if any momentum has been gained on that front. A national racing authority is badly needed.

The fact that most US trainers base at a track and train dozens of horses daily on the track, does lead to a higher number of incidents at tracks because of the law of averages. But any horse fatality is a tragedy, 12 is abhorrent. I'm sure they will get to the bottom of it, but I hope they do so before that number climbs any higher.

Lastly, there are still small time breeders in the business and I have several friends who are loving, caring breeders who go above and beyond for their homebreds, even after racing. They just don't get the attention and fanfare of the big stud farms. Having lived in Lexington for a couple of years, there are dozens and dozens of family-owned breeding farms dotting the greater Lexington area. Always fun seeing them have a big sale at the yearling/two-year-old sales, or a win on the track, etc.

 

[toppedoff]

American racing is very very very different to British racing and its not something I know much about.

I doubt the track is any different to what it has been for decades. Unless they maybe have a new Harrow that is doing a bad job?

If a trainer has a higher percentage of deaths than others then I would look to see what they are doing. Are they doing all the basic work or are they kicking on with more strenuous work before the horses are ready?

I'm sure it was Churchill Downs that took a stance a good few years ago and banned raceway drugs for 2yo's which had a lot of trainers up in arms.

I do expect part of the problem is the breeding now. I think we have got to the point where we can't keep using the fastest horses regardless of conformation as it is costing them their lives.

breeding aspect has always baffled me with thoroughbreds - i wish we had more regulations

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

breeding aspect has always baffled me with thoroughbreds - i wish we had more regulations

At least they can't be AI'd which does restrict numbers somewhat.

 

[toppedoff]

At least they can't be AI'd which does restrict numbers somewhat.

100%

is the breeding for speed more so for the flat horses? or are both jump and flats both responsible for breeding anything?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Flat breeding is worse than jumps. They are breeding for specific speeds for distances.

Jumps tend to be a little more diverse as staying power is the main thing - they need to stay at least 2 miles. They aren't afraid of introducing French blood either which isn't pure tb. They crossed with Selle Francais a while ago to bring in more bone and soundness. This has been adopted quite well into Britain more through Broodmares than sires but its a start.

 

[GSD Woman]

Jumps tend to be a little more diverse as staying power is the main thing - they need to stay at least 2 miles. They aren't afraid of introducing French blood either which isn't pure tb. They crossed with Selle Francais a while ago to bring in more bone and soundness. This has been adopted quite well into Britain more through Broodmares than sires but its a start.

Elf,

Did the Jockey Club have a hissy fit since these weren't "pure" tbs?
I'm all for outcrossing to keep breeds healthy. The Dalmatian club in the USA refused to accept the outcrossed Dals as purebred. Never mind no one could tell except the outcrosses didn't have the bladder stone issues.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Elf,

Did the Jockey Club have a hissy fit since these weren't "pure" tbs?
I'm all for outcrossing to keep breeds healthy. The Dalmatian club in the USA refused to accept the outcrossed Dals as purebred. Never mind no one could tell except the outcrosses didn't have the bladder stone issues.

No because they were still at least 7/8 tb and were put in the Non-Thoroughbred Register.

 

[Gamebird]

A surprising number of French NH horses (of which there are a lot running in the UK/Ireland, and now coming through as broodmares) are registered as AQPS (Autre Que Pur Sang) ie. not full blood. Kauto Star, Neptune Collonges, Sprinter Sacre and Quevega would be examples, but if you have a stack of passports from any big NH yard there will be a few AQPS ones amongst them. They are probably as close to TB as you'll get though, the percentage of non-TB blood is tiny, and decreasing generation by generation.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

A surprising number of French NH horses (of which there are a lot running in the UK/Ireland, and now coming through as broodmares) are registered as AQPS (Autre Que Pur Sang) ie. not full blood. Kauto Star, Neptune Collonges, Sprinter Sacre and Quevega would be examples, but if you have a stack of passports from any big NH yard there will be a few AQPS ones amongst them. They are probably as close to TB as you'll get though, the percentage of non-TB blood is tiny, and decreasing generation by generation.

We have a lot of them. They are some of the best put together, soundest horses we have.

So we have Coloured passports for the year they were born. AQPS also all begin with the same letter of the alphabet each year too.

 

[reynold]

The breeding side discussion is making me curious as to what the % of NH fatalities are from ex-flat bred/raced horses vs those bred specifically for NH.

If there is a correlation then it makes the flat breeding from poor conformation horses even worse for the social license of racing overall, as fatalities are more common from NH racing than flat.

 

[Gamebird]

We have a lot of them. They are some of the best put together, soundest horses we have.

I did see a quote somewhere saying that the French horses (in the context of discussing AQPS, but relating to French bred horses in general) are bred to race, whereas the Irish horses are bred for the store sales (ie to look their best and achieve a high price as stores). Obviously a generalisation, but I wouldn't disagree!

 

[Gamebird]

The breeding side discussion is making me curious as to what the % of NH fatalities are from ex-flat bred/raced horses vs those bred specifically for NH.

If there is a correlation then it makes the flat breeding from poor conformation horses even worse for the social license of racing overall, as fatalities are more common from NH racing than flat.

I think there is so much crossover that it would be hard to tease out. Stallions that raced on the flat themselves feature in NH pedigrees at every level - even grand national distance. The horse I have just acquired is by a flat horse, yet won over 3m7, and the stallion sired several other decent chasers. The most fashionable NH sire of the moment, Walk in the Park, was a Derby runner up. Yeats was a flat horse yet sired a whole catalogue of NH Grade 1 winners. And a GN winner.

 

[Gamebird]

Also obviously NH horses are almost always geldings, so any TB sire will have come from the flat.

 

[toppedoff]

A surprising number of French NH horses (of which there are a lot running in the UK/Ireland, and now coming through as broodmares) are registered as AQPS (Autre Que Pur Sang) ie. not full blood. Kauto Star, Neptune Collonges, Sprinter Sacre and Quevega would be examples, but if you have a stack of passports from any big NH yard there will be a few AQPS ones amongst them. They are probably as close to TB as you'll get though, the percentage of non-TB blood is tiny, and decreasing generation by generation.

ah thats interesting, suppose thats why theres bit of a difference between a flat and NH build? Jumpers always look more bulked and put together to me, could be wrong though

 

[bonny]

ah thats interesting, suppose thats why theres bit of a difference between a flat and NH build? Jumpers always look more bulked and put together to me, could be wrong though

On the whole they are older so more filled out.

 

[druid]

French start and race their NH horses earlier which improves bone density (there is studies on this) so they are inevitably sounder orthorpedically than Irish horses which start later.

On USA, the numbers of on track deaths don't relate to racing deaths becuase the horses all train at the tracks as well. Surfaces are under huge scrutiny (Santa Anita ultrasounded their entire track to try find the "pockets" the jockeys were describing feeling!) but the use of medications are a huge issue, just look at the recent FBI lawsuits and prosecutions

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

On the whole they are older so more filled out.

This.

We don't jump 3yo's before June in this country and then they only go over hurdles and never beyond 2miles. Most won't start their careers on the track in juveniles. Most will start towards the end of their 4yo year or the turn of their 5yo year with a couple of seasons of training behind them.

Flat horses can run at 2yo from Easter onwards. They can't run on the AW until the turf season starts so at least that is something. They also stagger the distances they can run. April/May they can only go 5 furlongs. June/July 6 furlongs. August/September 7 furlongs. End of September onwards 8 furlongs. So in theory by the time you have a Miler ready to run it will have done plenty enough work at home to build up the strength and stamina to go a mile. You don't have to of course, you can go at any distance in between.