Claiming against a YO/YM

Honey08 said:
It works both ways. How would DIYs who have their horses turned out in the morning for them feel if the YO sued them because their horse pulled and they fell over? Or for damage that their horse did to the stable?

To me, horses are an outdoor sport that will lead you into bad weather and ice and snow. Youve just got to cope with it.

Sorry if this sounds like vitriol to some. I just detest this blame culture of wimps that is evolving. It effects everyone.
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I feel a bit like my posts on this thread are are invisible... if the livery has been negligent (which probably wouldn't be the case on the basic facts of either of the examples you cite), then they deserve to be sued. Negligence is not the same as 'an accident' as calling it 'an accident' (which some things are) implies that no one is to blame. Negligence is having a duty of care towards a person or group of people and not upholding it. Genuine accidents are rare.

Call me a wimp if you like (fwiw I have never brought any claims myself) but I call people who don't uphold their duties negligent. Doesn't matter if they are a Tesco superstore or a one man band, the damage is the same.
 
Puppy said:
Tort law is a little more complex than the trashy tv ads make out ;)

If you read some of the cases about how people have suffered due to others negligence then you may change your mind. :)
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No Somehow I don't think I will thanks and I do have some decent knowledge of Tort Law, get off your high horse my post wasn't even directed at some of the comments you made.
 
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MissCandy said:
You don't have to suffer financial hardship to be able to sue - is breaking a bone not enough? Why shouldn't somebody be compensated if they were injured through somebody elses negligence?
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Umm. Why should you get a pot of money for a broken arm? It isn't going to unbreak it is it? Definitely there should be an apology if the YO is found negligent, and if the 'victim' can prove financial loss then that should be recouped. I'm sorry and I don't mean to be rude but no, absolutely breaking a bone should not guarantee you a pay out if financially it has had no effect on you
 
fadedv said:
I feel a bit like my posts on this thread are are invisible... if the livery has been negligent (which probably wouldn't be the case on the basic facts of either of the examples you cite), then they deserve to be sued. Negligence is not the same as 'an accident' as calling it 'an accident' (which some things are) implies that no one is to blame. Negligence is having a duty of care towards a person or group of people and not upholding it. Genuine accidents are rare.

Call me a wimp if you like (fwiw I have never brought any claims myself) but I call people who don't uphold their duties negligent. Doesn't matter if they are a Tesco superstore or a one man band, the damage is the same.
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I can see your posts I promise :)
 
fadedv said:
And again, why shouldn't the YO take responsibility for his (in)action? Yes, the person could have bought her own grit but why should the YO be able to derogate from his responsibilities?
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You miss my point. I would agree that he should take responsibility for making his yard safe, and that he obviously hadn't, was not good. However, as I said if the person had slipped over on ice that she hadn't seen or was not aware of for any reason then I could quite understand that she would claim and he would have to be responsible. The thing is that she could see the ice she slipped on, knew it was there, knew is was dangerous and yet did nothing to protect herself against the dangers. If she had there would never have been an accident if the first place.

It is all very well to say it was the YO responsibility to grit the yard and why should she buy a bag of grit but when you can obviously see a danger why not do something to protect yourself rather than simply say 'it is so an so's job to sort that out so I won't do anything'.
 
When we start seeing threads about how no-one can find DIY livery yards, I hope that people remember this incident. IMO if you are paying for DIY livery you are paying for a stable and safe grazing, with access to clean water. If you want anything else, then pay for the service. People want YO's to 'just pop a hay net in', or a bucket, or top up the water etc. Why should other people subsidise your horse, with either their money or their time. The OP of the original thread made a comment about it being cheap, and also about another yard, my guess is that it costs more to keep your horse at the other yard.
With regard to why should you get a better service because you pay more, er that is how it works, that is why a mini costs less than a BMW!
 
Snow Tiddely Pom said:
You miss my point. I would agree that he should take responsibility for making his yard safe, and that he obviously hadn't, was not good. However, as I said if the person had slipped over on ice that she hadn't seen or was not aware of for any reason then I could quite understand that she would claim and he would have to be responsible. The thing is that she could see the ice she slipped on, knew it was there, knew is was dangerous and yet did nothing to protect herself against the dangers. If she had there would never have been an accident if the first place.

It is all very well to say it was the YO responsibility to grit the yard and why should she buy a bag of grit but when you can obviously see a danger why not do something to protect yourself rather than simply say 'it is so an so's job to sort that out so I won't do anything'.
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Even though I can see your posts fadedv I totally agree with this. YO should have fixed it, no one disputes that but why not, in the mean time, make the situation safe yourself.

I think both parties are a little bit guilty in this instance.
 
MissCandy said:
Do you know what pee's me off more than anything with these recent threads? The recurring suggestion that if a person is on DIY livery they can fend for themselves. So for everyone on full or part livery I suppose you expect your yards gritted and cleared of snow for you do you?

It doesn't matter what type of service you pay for, the fact is you are paying for a service and the provider has a certain duty of care to each person - not a higher duty to the higher paying customers jeeeeesss

You don't have to suffer financial hardship to be able to sue - is breaking a bone not enough? Why shouldn't somebody be compensated if they were injured through somebody elses negligence?
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See to me DIY isn't a service. It is rental of a stable and Turn out, No services mentioned.

DIYers dont pay enough to expect all these extra's.

In this case common sense could have prevented such an accident. No one maliciously / willfully caused dangerous situations, snow happens to us all. We didn't all fall down and break bones, no we got together and resolved the hazard ourselves. Don't forget the OP of the other thread new the hazard was there but still fell having chosen not to to go around the area. Should the YO counter sue for her stupidity in not assessing a situation and acting accordingly. I wasn't really wanting to criticize the original OP because obviously she has been injured.
 
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Had it been about a horse I think your replies may well have been different- and I think the YO would be liable- here is a situation at an old yard of mine. Girl A had a horse who trapped its shoe in poorly fenced fields- a number of liveries asked for sheep net to be removed. Nothing was done. 2 liveries left- YO spread rhumers about them so no one else left. Girl B's horse cut throat on barbed wire- again liveries complained at poor fencing, nothing was done (one livery paid to fence her own paddock on the yard) YO daughter's horse dies in a fencing accident YO- then changes most of the fencing. 2 fields still to be done- no one has left for fear of the 'talk' by YO (and there were only 4 yards within 20 miles of this yard. Girl B's new horse arrives she is told to place in one of the fields that has yet been newly fenced- she says no, so yard owner tells her it has to stay in then until fence is doen- no room anywhere else. New horse hoonies when turned out after 3 days in a new fencinf still unfinished and slices leg- girl B claims and wins in court.

I find it interesting that when its a human thats injured its not a big bother. I can see both sides to the fence- but I think for me when the OP said that the YO had managed to grit elsewhere and keep that ice free suggests it could and should have been done, also the fact that people asked and these issues were ignored, and finally that the slippy area was in a place that had to be accessed- there was no choice suggests there may be some liability on the part of the YO. My yard was not gritted and it was dangerous- so bad that no horses were brought in- all stayed out- this was the decision of the YO to keep access to the yard limited and therefore safer. My OH slipped and fell but only a bruised ego resulted! A broken arm in 2 places is severe and should it affect the wage earning of the OP just because YO cant be bothered to grit/fix leaky gutter then there seems to be some level of blame.
 
jesstickle said:
Of course the law is there to protect people and if there is a genuine case of negligence fine (by which I mean someone couldn't possibly have been aware of the risks involved). However, it does seem to encourage people to completely wash their hands of having any common sense and self preservation. If you can see a problem you should do something about it. Not just ignore it and then try to sue after something happens. Surely? Or am I just old fashioned?
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This! I'm old fashioned too obviously!

There is no difference in a full livery yard and a DIY when it comes to how the yard should be. But most DIY yards are making nothing, and can't do all the jobs that need doing straight away. Until you run a yard, you have no idea how many more jobs will occur - our yard gutters got damaged by a livery who backed her trailer into it. We didn't sue her - we just fixed it as soon as we could. It wasn't straight away. Normally a leaking gutter wouldn't seem an urgent job - that early snow and frost took everyone by surprise - even the blinkin roads weren't cleared by a council with full time workers, so how can you expect Jo Public with a job to do your yard perfectly? How would you feel if, in future, your yard said "sorry I can't afford to grit the yard, and I'm worried about getting sued, so I'm shutting down next week and you need to find somewhere else"? Most DIY YOs have full time jobs too. We did DIY simply to have company for my horse at first - cost us money.
 
jesstickle said:
I think both parties are a little bit guilty in this instance.
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That I completely agree with, which is I suspect with alot of claims made these days is often the case.

Common sense suggests that no matter who is responsible for what, you ultimately have to be responsible for your own safety by making informed and sensible decisions.
 
having had a broken arm myself - just over a year ago, I can really sympathise with OP on the other thread HOWEVER... I would like to agree with the others who say 'WHY CAN'T PEOPLE TAKE SOME PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR HAZARDOUS (weather) CONDITIONS??

Weather is a natural ocurrence (an act of god you might say). The broken gutter wasn't posing a H&S risk until it froze - why not sue him up there for his freaky weather???!! Or instead, on arriving at the yard on a snowy morning you could feed your horse then get out your shovel and clear a path and or any lumps of ice anywhere. I do this routinely after snowfall and it takes me all of 5/10 minutes to clear a 2metre wide by 10 metre long section of the yard to walk on. I have NEVER slipped on this ground after doing so. Generally when the weather is so appauling, we only have one tap working (the one that I keep thawed on a daily basis, for my benefit - NB I am NOT the y/o) and guess what... everyone uses it but not only this - they empty their 'dirty' water over the yard just outside this tap... so I routinely put straw down to prevent me going arse over tit whenever I enter or exit my feed room... added to that I am one of 4 people on a 30 horse yard who actually breaks ice on the water troughs / makes sure the horses have access to water in the field. Seriously. Food and water are the BASICS for keeping a horse alive. WHY don't people take responsibility???
 
I don't agree with the whole "I'm injured, I'm going to sue" mob.

If there's been negligence and there's been a real accident, then fair enough. To me, if I fell due to having gone on ice, which I knew was there and still didn't do anything myself to make it safer, then I would be calling myself every name under the sun!

Yes, the YO could have done something with this, but so could the person that fell. If you can't afford to have a broken arm, then make everything you do as safe as possible. The poster went over a patch of ice, which she KNEW was there. I would NOT have taken a horse over. If I make the decision that it's safe to remove my horse from field/stable, then if she has an accident, then it's my fault for deciding that it was safe to proceed.
In this instance, I would probably have asked the YO to supply grit and I would grit yard myself.

I go DIY not due to cost (although it helps) but because I like to be the main carer of my horses, spend time with them and I didn't buy them for someone else to spend time with them instead of me.
 
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I haven't read the original thread but I'm someone else who doesn't like the blame and compensation culture we now have in this country. We were at a yard where the YO was the same and didn't put salt down. So we got together and put our own down. It was simpler to do that to avoid horses or humans getting hurt. Maybe some will say it wasnt down to us to do that but safety has to come first.

That said I am genuinely sorry to hear someone broke their arm whatever the circumstances.
 
OK here is my story.......

Loose sheep on bridleway (on private land, 2nd time loose animals belonging to farm owner had interfered with my hacking out), had to get off horse (4yr sports horse owned by employers) to close gate as next gate was onto road and did not want the sheep to follow me onto road and cause accident, as i got off the sheep charged towards us which caused the horse to kick out, he made contact with my arm and shattered my elbow. Was operated on immediately, all good. I went back to work 8 MONTHS later. It took over 6 months for the bones to knit back together and i had a frozen shoulder. I went onto statutory sick pay and had nowhere to live and could not get any housing benefit etc as i had lived in europe for over 2 years prior to the accident (even though i was paying taxes in that country) could not drive for over 3 months, i had to sell my youngster and live on friends and families kindness!

Should i have claimed?

Will be interesting to hear your thoughts :)
 
I do take the point, I really do - but in terms of the poster on the other thread doing things to make herself safe, in reality, on a livery yard with lots of liveries how easy is it to get organised to buy grit? Simple in theory, but in practice...? I know I wouldn't feel inclined to buy enough grit to do the entire yard, as I would never see the money from the half the people there! And clubbing together is great if you can do it, but in my experience you don't see half the people as they are on different timetables to you. In fairness, I would probably have chucked some muck down as I believe it is better to light a candle than curse the darkness, but hindsight is a wonderful thing as the other poster has presumably discovered. In reality, a lot of people just cross their fingers and hope for the best in this sort of circumstance and take the ostrich approach! Sometimes they get lucky (on both sides), sometimes unlucky as in this case.

To those who say 'Oh, it's DIY so you should expect to' - It's not about how much you pay/don't pay/what type of livery you are on. The owner/occupier of the land has a responsibility to all those who access his land irrespective of whether/how much they pay.
 
jesstickle said:
Umm. Why should you get a pot of money for a broken arm? It isn't going to unbreak it is it? Definitely there should be an apology if the YO is found negligent, and if the 'victim' can prove financial loss then that should be recouped. I'm sorry and I don't mean to be rude but no, absolutely breaking a bone should not guarantee you a pay out if financially it has had no effect on you
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Umm. You should get compensation for the pain and suffering caused by somebody elses negligence.

So would you say the same thing for any injury caused by someone else through NEGLIGENCE? A few missing teeth, a badly scarred face, a broken back, a head injury, brain damage - you should only be entitled to compensation for your financial loss?
 
MissCandy said:
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So would you say the same thing for any injury caused by someone else through NEGLIGENCE? A few missing teeth, a badly scarred face, a broken back, a head injury, brain damage - you should only be entitled to compensation for your financial loss?
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Yes of course I would. Although if money was required for specialist care or adaptation to your house or car due to the negligence that should be available. If you are brain damaged, can no longer work and need full time care a financial pay out is wholly appropriate as you have lost your income and are paying extra as well. Like wise for any serious, permanent and debilitating outcome which financially affects you.

If you have broken your arm, which will mend, and cost you nothing due to the glory of the NHS how on earth is money going to help?
 
BBH said:
See to me DIY isn't a service. It is rental of a stable and Turn out, No services mentioned.

DIYers dont pay enough to expect all these extra's.

QUOTE]

See I thought full livery extras would be for somebody's time to look after (muck out, water, feed) and exercise my horse. I would also be paying them for the hay, bedding and feed.

So full liveries should have thier yards cleared of ice and snow for them?

So what would happen if DIY and full liverys are on the same yard?

If the DIYer fell she wouldn't be able to claim, but if the full livery fell she would?

The fact is that the YO does owe a duty of care to ANYBODY using the yard regardless of how much they pay.
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shadowboy said:
Had it been about a horse I think your replies may well have been different- and I think the YO would be liableI
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shadowboy said:
Actually I don't think mine would, the fact is the OP of the other thread new it was very icy and walked across it with a full wheelbarrow anyway. If the horse slips and gets injured on that same piece of ice you would say the horse did not choose to walk across that ice, the Owner decieded to walk the horse across a strentch that was known to be very icy and the horse gets injured you then come back to the same argument was it the owners fault for walking across knowing it was very icy and not doing anything herself ie not taking any responsibility for the accident or the YO for not gritting or fixing gutter? Your senario is a bit different and obviously showed some negligence did occur by the YO, i'm not sure if this situation is as extreme.
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a bit off topic, but both this winter and last our local retail park went uncleared or salted for weeks. No attempt at all was made to remove the snow and ice, yet all the shops were open as usual, and the car park was appalling, makes me wonder what would have happened if someone had slipped and broken a bone there, where would they stand legally?

just wondering???........
 
ossy said:
shadowboy said:
Had it been about a horse I think your replies may well have been different- and I think the YO would be liableI
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shadowboy said:
Actually I don't think mine would, the fact is the OP of the other thread new it was very icy and walked across it with a full wheelbarrow anyway. If the horse slips and gets injured on that same piece of ice you would say the horse did not choose to walk across that ice, the Owner decieded to walk the horse across a strentch that was known to be very icy and the horse gets injured you then come back to the same argument was it the owners fault for walking across knowing it was very icy and not doing anything herself ie not taking any responsibility for the accident or the YO for not gritting or fixing gutter? Your senario is a bit different and obviously showed some negligence did occur by the YO, i'm not sure if this situation is as extreme.
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I totally see your point- and I've never sued so im not 'on the bandwagon' however, I think that what got to me was the fact that the YO had been asked by several people (unless I have misunderstood) and therefore could have taken a variety of options to decrease the risk 1. Grit the yard or 2.Keep everyone off the yard. (which is what our YO did) 3. Ask liveries to deposit muck elsewhere for the timebeing. The fact that nothing whatsoever was attempted despite requests- to me it sounded lazy.

As it is even if the OP wins- the payout will be linked to severity of the injury so relavitely small which the YO should be covered for.

I think blame lies on both parts- i.e. OP could have bought specialist shoes etc. to help too.
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MissCandy said:
BBH said:
See to me DIY isn't a service. It is rental of a stable and Turn out, No services mentioned.

DIYers dont pay enough to expect all these extra's.

QUOTE]

See I thought full livery extras would be for somebody's time to look after (muck out, water, feed) and exercise my horse. I would also be paying them for the hay, bedding and feed.

So full liveries should have thier yards cleared of ice and snow for them?

So what would happen if DIY and full liverys are on the same yard?

If the DIYer fell she wouldn't be able to claim, but if the full livery fell she would?

The fact is that the YO does owe a duty of care to ANYBODY using the yard regardless of how much they pay.
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I do agree with your sentiment but at the end of the day full liveries pay more so ultimately more profit for the YO's to do all these extra bits IMO.

Can I ask you how you think a yard with for example 8 DIYers on 25 quid a week can operate ?? Thats 200 a week. Exactly how far do you think that can stretch.

I fully understand that YO's dont have to offer this option but likewise its just aswell some small cheap operations do otherwise horse ownership for the majority will be an impossible dream. Would you be prepared to triple you weekly bill to cover all eventualities. These cheap yards rely on the sense and goodwill of the DIYers to help / support each other. Anyone who expects all the regulations fully covered and will sue as soon as sneeze should give them a wide berth.
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birchave0 said:
a bit off topic, but both this winter and last our local retail park went uncleared or salted for weeks. No attempt at all was made to remove the snow and ice, yet all the shops were open as usual, and the car park was appalling, makes me wonder what would have happened if someone had slipped and broken a bone there, where would they stand legally?

just wondering???........
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LOL the only place I slipped this winter was the local Tesco's when my trolley went steaming ahead in front of me on the ice. None of the car park was gritted we just were extra careful and avoided the worst bits.If I had fallen I would have been embarrassed, dusted myself off and hoped no-one saw.
 
The recurring suggestion that if a person is on DIY livery they can fend for themselves.
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It has nothing to do with whether you are DIY or not. It's about common sense, pulling your finger out, and sorting a problem yourself.
 
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BBH said:
MissCandy said:
I do agree with your sentiment but at the end of the day full liveries pay more so ultimately more profit for the YO's to do all these extra bits IMO.

Can I ask you how you think a yard with for example 8 DIYers on 25 quid a week can operate ?? Thats 200 a week. Exactly how far do you think that can stretch.

I fully understand that YO's dont have to offer this option but likewise its just aswell some small cheap operations do otherwise horse ownership for the majority will be an impossible dream. Would you be prepared to triple you weekly bill to cover all eventualities. These cheap yards rely on the sense and goodwill of the DIYers to help / support each other. Anyone who expects all the regulations fully covered and will sue as soon as sneeze should give them a wide berth.
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Thankfully the law is not there just to protect the people that pay more!

YO's don't have to offer DIY and if they do then surely they have taken into account how much they can afford to offer it at?

I agree that DIYers help and support each other but being DIY does not mean that you are not owed a duty of care for goodness sake!

FWIW our yard was not cleared by the YO, we did it ourselves. Livery's did fall over. I'm not suggesting that anyone who falls in ice or snow should be able to claim compensation but if somebody is NEGLIGENT and somebody is injured as a result then they are entitled to sue regardless of how much they pay!
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Can anyone legally a "duty of care" for me? and in this instance - the YO had been contacted by OP to say it was dangerous, so probably onus on YO to try to do something, but equally as OP had contacted YO, she knew it was potentially dangerous and still chose to go on the yard. I am not getting into the "she needed to be there etc" just interested if from a legal perspective one cancels out the other.

I do vaguely remember and hope someone can validate/rubbish that if someone trespasses on your property and hurts themselves because there were no warnings (ie bitten by a guard dog when there were no signs up) - the property owner could be sued. If that is the case, where do you stand legally if you HAD been invited.

Though in this case, my sentiments are on the don't sue side..
 
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