Claiming against a YO/YM

Allover said:
Will be interesting to hear your thoughts :)
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My thoughts are that a sheep is worth let's say £500 tops dead weight, horse you were riding, must be worth 4 times that (at least).
Look after yourself and your horse and sod the sheep :o:cool:.

As for claiming, I would say no as your own actions caused your injury.
 
Allover said:
Said sheep was out of its field on public bridleway that runs through private land (owned by owner of the sheep), inadequate control of livestock?
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But I suspect the location of the escaped sheep did not pose a serious threat to public health (unlike if they had escaped on to the road), so therefore no case to answer?????
 
Allover said:
Said sheep was out of its field on public bridleway that runs through private land (owned by owner of the sheep), inadequate control of livestock?
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As far as I'm aware, there is no law stating that there can't be sheep on a bridleway.
If you were to claim from somebody, it would be your employer as it was their horse that injured you.
 
I havnt read all the posts so this may have been covered.

In yesterdays thread the OP was getting told its people like you why liverys so expensive and there eventually only be full livery.
My therory is the reason alot of insurance premiums are because although theres good YOs there, theres also bad ones that are negligent and do get sued. Surely that needs tackling more than the people that sue as for them to win the claims there must have been some kind of negligence!

Although on a second note i probaly wouldnt claim for that.

The thing with this YO there was no comprimise he had very easy access to grit, he could have left some out for the liveries to spread themselves. This is what happened at our DIY yard, the tractor scraped up the snow, the YO put grit on the car park and leading to school, she then left us access to the grit to do outside our stables.

DIY or not i think the YOs should provide grit for there property to be safe, at the end of the day just because its DIY you are still paying for a service and I would at least expect it to be provided.
 
MissCandy said:
BBH said:
Thankfully the law is not there just to protect the people that pay more!

YO's don't have to offer DIY and if they do then surely they have taken into account how much they can afford to offer it at?

I agree that DIYers help and support each other but being DIY does not mean that you are not owed a duty of care for goodness sake!

FWIW our yard was not cleared by the YO, we did it ourselves. Livery's did fall over. I'm not suggesting that anyone who falls in ice or snow should be able to claim compensation but if somebody is NEGLIGENT and somebody is injured as a result then they are entitled to sue regardless of how much they pay!
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I think you'll agree from the sentiments on these posts that most people agree that its not appropriate to sue and common sense should prevail. Maybe its an example where the legal obligations due not marry / tally with people's sense of whats logically right.

In the case of the original OP she could be deemed negligent herself in most people's eyes because she put herself in a place of danger. She knew there was a leaking gutter and she saw the patch of ice that she slipped on and yet still chose to walk over it. She knew the yard was not up to par but still kept her horse there. How far do you have to go before common sense prevails and personal responsibility kicks in and if you're saying that absolutely every incident can be suable then there is no hope or future for horses and yards.

Maybe the only safe option is to stay in bed till the snows are over, yard owners so they're not sued and liveries so they don't get injured.

Its an example where I don't think anyone will agree on whats sensible. Yes YO's should remove obvious hazards but snow / ice is an act of god and individuals should do what they can to keep themselves and others safe.
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amymay said:
But I suspect the location of the escaped sheep did not pose a serious threat to public health (unlike if they had escaped on to the road), so therefore no case to answer?????
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The gate that i got off to shut meant that the sheep could not get onto a public highway where it could have caused an accident?
 
quirky said:
As for claiming, I would say no as your own actions caused your injury.
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These were my thoughts exactly, though the amount of people who said "oh you gonna claim you will get thousands for that" was unbelievable.

It was an accident pure and simple, IMO opinion you have to take responsibility for yourself and face the consequences if you make the wrong decisions. Obviously if there is negligence (speeding car, drunk driver, dangerous work enviroment etc) then claims should be made, but not for accidents.

As for ice on yards, i had a vet coming and knew i needed to be able to trot one of the horses up so i got to work with shovel, fork and salt and cleared a 40 foot "track" on my yard so i could do so safely, we had had 14 inches of snow so was not easy but necessary!
 
My daughter, when 3 had her thumb shut in the hinge of an exterior door at nursery. Initially, I didn't even consider suing, even though she had it operated on. It was only a month down the line when they said she'd need plastic surgery on it that I instructed solicitors. Nursery were very understanding and didn't contest that they had been negligent, in fact, when she next went in, hinge guards had been fitted on all doors.

Had it been me, I wouldn't have dreamt of suing as I would consider it was my own stupid self but you can't expect a 3 yr old to have that level of reasoning.

So, the same accident with different permutations could call for a different course of action, if you see what I mean.

Allover - sounds a bloody painful injury mind ..... can you still bring yourself to eat lamb, or can you not bear the sight of it :p:D:D?
 
quirky said:
Allover - sounds a bloody painful injury mind ..... can you still bring yourself to eat lamb, or can you not bear the sight of it :p:D:D?
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It was and funny enough i enjoy a nice bit of lamb more than ever (i gonna get shot down for that one!!!):D

When people were telling me to claim i always used to think of Mr Sheep in a suit defending his actions...............:D
 
I don't think it is right to sue the yard owner in that instance at all. I think there are very few scenarios when it would be morally right to sue someone. As I said before, the reason why there are no village gymkhanas held anymore, why there are now only a tiny number of local fun shows compared to a few years ago, and one of the main reasons why riding schools are closing down across the country is because of the compensation claim culture that has swept the country.

The best way to get through life is to look after and take responsibilty for yourself, and not blame someone else.
Of course there are times when we have to rely on the competance and safety standards of others, and there are instances where compensation for losses is required. For example; If you are travelling on a train which crashed, and it turns out track maintenance work was not carried out correctly, you have a case for sueing for your losses!

You don't sue your poor yard owner because England has a snowy winter and you decide to waltz across the ice and fall over!!!!!!!
 
I'd be interested to hear from YO's who have been sued by a livery client.

Two questions...

1. Would you be prepared to keep boarding the particular livery that made a claim against you?

2. Did it make you rethink having any liveries full stop?



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As an ex-YO of a VERY small set up, I can assure you that had I been sued, I would have closed down as soon as I'd been given the opportunity to remove all liveries from the premises, within the notice periods.

Some times accidents happen which are out of the control of YO's but they're held ultimately responsible for the sole purpose of being able to sue. It's the old "they'll have insurance/more money" so sue them.

I remember hearing about a case where a YO was successfully sued because a livery's horse had sweet itch and cut itself when rubbing it's tail on a fence post. Owner knew the horse had sweet itch but did nothing to relieve the horse's symptoms at all. As soon as the horse was injured, the livery made a claim against the YO.

How is that fair? How can any yard owner indemnify themselves against that type of thing?

I had a livery whose horse had feather mites. He got his leg caught in a five bar gate because he was frantically rubbing at it. He had a cut, but this not require veterinary attention. The gate lived to fight another day when re-hung. Said horse would rub on water troughs and fences too. I did make a complaint to the livery, as I was worried the horse may break the large troughs, sitting on them to rub his legs, but thankfully it never occurred to them to sue me for their horse's injury in the gate. I'm sure they'd have been successful too, but how it can be my fault that their horse is itchy is beyond me. I bet I wouldn't have been successful suing them for damage to fencing, troughs etc. had I incurred any major costs.

It never seems to work the other way. YO's seem to be expected to put up with damage/destruction because ALL damage/repairs is perceived to be included in the livery money.

This was my point on the other thread. I only charged £15 per week, as there are yards in our area with manèges charging just over £20 per week. How can that £15, for example, be expected to cover EVERYTHING if you have a particularly damaging horse on your premises?
 
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Patches said:
I'd be interested to hear from YO's who have been sued by a livery client.

Two questions...

1. Would you be prepared to keep boarding the particular livery that made a claim against you?

2. Did it make you rethink having any liveries full stop?
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I have not been sued, but if I had:
1. not a chance in hell and I would make sure other YOs in the area were aware of the case.
2. I would probably fold the business, not worth the hassle.
 
I think a case comparison with renting a house is relevant.
If you rent a house you have to clear your own paths put down grit etc. If you rent a hotel room you expect it done for you.


On DIY livery you are just renting the stable & field so like renting a house. On full livery it compares to a hotel.

In the OP of the other thread's case - if she knew it was icy she should have done something about it.

I run a kennels and have limited access to clients while weather is yukky - they can access the gate bell and then a path to the building.
I used to take work experience students but haven't since a groomer I know had a claim via an ambulance chaser when a WE slipped on water that she herself had spilt. (Groomer won but a lot of hassle)
 
Going back to law in the most simple terms- doesn't it first ask what a reasonable person would do? I would think a reasonable, well rounded person, with a level of common sense would note the weather conditions and act on this accordingly- in this case gritting the yard to prevent herself from slipping over.

With regards to YO & legal action- my mum ran a DIY yard, one of her liveries tried to sue for her horse going bonkers and running into a dry stone wall. After the claim was dismissed my mum gave everyone their notice and got rid- you wonder why there are less and less private DIY yards? Insurance and claim culture. Everyone is terrified of being liable for other people's fick ups.
 
fadedv said:
Puppy, I am a property lawyer so my tort knowledge is largely now related to the property torts...


However, on the subject of ice and gritting property, a quick google reveals this:

http://www.taylorvinters.com/newsandopinions/slipping-on-ice-and-snow

They don't look like a dodgy firm to me and it broadly correlates with what I know about occupier's liability.
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Yup! :) They're local to me in fact, and yes, well respected :)


A good summary of the law on this scenario is covered in this paragraph - taken from the link Fadedv posted:

The position is different in respect of snow/ice on your land/premises. In this situation the occupier of the property owes a duty of care to all those who enter the land (even uninvited guests/trespassers) to ensure that they are reasonably safe whilst on his/her premises. The obvious example is of people coming onto your property to make a delivery. The best advice is to clear and/or grit the snow/ice properly to reduce the risk of injury to people entering your premises (as well as to yourself and your family!).
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MissCandy said:
Do you know what pee's me off more than anything with these recent threads? The recurring suggestion that if a person is on DIY livery they can fend for themselves. So for everyone on full or part livery I suppose you expect your yards gritted and cleared of snow for you do you?

It doesn't matter what type of service you pay for, the fact is you are paying for a service and the provider has a certain duty of care to each person - not a higher duty to the higher paying customers jeeeeesss

You don't have to suffer financial hardship to be able to sue - is breaking a bone not enough? Why shouldn't somebody be compensated if they were injured through somebody elses negligence?
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Agreed :D On both points! :D
 
ossy said:
No Somehow I don't think I will thanks and I do have some decent knowledge of Tort Law, get off your high horse my post wasn't even directed at some of the comments you made.
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Alright, chill your beans! :D

I, personally, have incredibly sympathy for those whose lives have been deeply effected/ruined by others negligence :)
 
Allover said:
Said sheep was out of its field on public bridleway that runs through private land (owned by owner of the sheep), inadequate control of livestock?
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If the bridleway was through private land it was almost certainly also OWNED by the owner of the private land. The sheep had every right to be on that land too. If the rider had left the gate open they would have become liable for the safety of the sheep.
 
YorksG said:
When we start seeing threads about how no-one can find DIY livery yards, I hope that people remember this incident. IMO if you are paying for DIY livery you are paying for a stable and safe grazing, with access to clean water. If you want anything else, then pay for the service. People want YO's to 'just pop a hay net in', or a bucket, or top up the water etc. Why should other people subsidise your horse, with either their money or their time. The OP of the original thread made a comment about it being cheap, and also about another yard, my guess is that it costs more to keep your horse at the other yard.
With regard to why should you get a better service because you pay more, er that is how it works, that is why a mini costs less than a BMW!
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But it's nothing to do with what kind of a livery you are. The YO has a duty of care to ALL who enter the property - farriers, vets, maintenence men etc etc included.
 
Allover said:
OK here is my story.......

Loose sheep on bridleway (on private land, 2nd time loose animals belonging to farm owner had interfered with my hacking out), had to get off horse (4yr sports horse owned by employers) to close gate as next gate was onto road and did not want the sheep to follow me onto road and cause accident, as i got off the sheep charged towards us which caused the horse to kick out, he made contact with my arm and shattered my elbow. Was operated on immediately, all good. I went back to work 8 MONTHS later. It took over 6 months for the bones to knit back together and i had a frozen shoulder. I went onto statutory sick pay and had nowhere to live and could not get any housing benefit etc as i had lived in europe for over 2 years prior to the accident (even though i was paying taxes in that country) could not drive for over 3 months, i had to sell my youngster and live on friends and families kindness!

Should i have claimed?

Will be interesting to hear your thoughts :)
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Your employer should have compensated you.
 
Puppy said:
Your employer should have compensated you.
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PMSL :D

In fact what they did was promise they would "look after me" financially, and buy me a new jacket to replace the BRAND BLOODY NEW one that had to be cut off. What they did was feck all, apart from turn the heating off in the grooms apartment in -6 degree temps so the pipes burst and flooded my personal effects and then told me i should have had my own insurance. Oh yes and they took my clothes and ariats grasmeres from the hospital and said they would wash and clean them (it was late november and we had had lots of rain and i was lying in inches of mud waiting for the ambulance), when i went to collect my things they were stuffed in a bag in the corner of the tack room untouched:mad:
 
Allover said:
PMSL :D

In fact what they did was promise they would "look after me" financially, and buy me a new jacket to replace the BRAND BLOODY NEW one that had to be cut off. What they did was feck all, apart from turn the heating off in the grooms apartment in -6 degree temps so the pipes burst and flooded my personal effects and then told me i should have had my own insurance. Oh yes and they took my clothes and ariats grasmeres from the hospital and said they would wash and clean them (it was late november and we had had lots of rain and i was lying in inches of mud waiting for the ambulance), when i went to collect my things they were stuffed in a bag in the corner of the tack room untouched:mad:
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Could be worse. My boss pinched my hat and gave it to an apprentice whilst I was at home recovering from surgery :D:D
 
Patches said:
I remember hearing about a case where a YO was successfully sued because a livery's horse had sweet itch and cut itself when rubbing it's tail on a fence post. Owner knew the horse had sweet itch but did nothing to relieve the horse's symptoms at all. As soon as the horse was injured, the livery made a claim against the YO.
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That is just ridiculous :confused:
 
I haven't read all the threads, but the OP attitiudes towards all YO's has really p****d me off. In all walks of life there are good and bad people but YO's seem to get tarnished with the same brush all the time. I, as a YO, care about all my clients and horses and worked DAMNED hard to supply a service to them. There have been people in the past that have tried to take advantage of this and they have been weedled out. I now only have a handful of (good) DIY liveries and the rest are part/full liveries as quite frankly I earn less money and get more hassle from DIY liveries in my experience.
So please, before you tarnish every YO with the same brush, please get a wider view of the whole equestrian community!!
 
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