Claiming against a YO/YM

[outandabout]

I haven't read all the threads, but the OP attitiudes towards all YO's has really p****d me off. In all walks of life there are good and bad people but YO's seem to get tarnished with the same brush all the time. I, as a YO, care about all my clients and horses and worked DAMNED hard to supply a service to them. There have been people in the past that have tried to take advantage of this and they have been weedled out. I now only have a handful of (good) DIY liveries and the rest are part/full liveries as quite frankly I earn less money and get more hassle from DIY liveries in my experience.
So please, before you tarnish every YO with the same brush, please get a wider view of the whole equestrian community!!

Vix - look through my past posts if you want to see what I think of YOs. My YO is excellent and she and her staff have worked very hard (even more than usual) to keep the yard clear in the snow. I think very highly of good YOs, as it is a lot of hard work for not much reward. This is not about tarnishing all YO with the same brush, it is about YOs who don't fulfil their responsibilities and duty of care towards their customers, for that is what liveries are.

 

[Tinypony]

My YO did the best he could in the bad weather, he made sure I had water and helped carry the containers, cleared and gritted little pathways and even chucked hay out for the horses in the mornings when he knew I'd have trouble getting to the yard. So, if I'd slipped on ice and broken my arm I wouldn't have sued him because in my own mind I know he did his best. However, if like Op's YO he was aware of problems but had done nothing to remedy them, and had even cleared and gritted paths at his other businesses but not the yard, and I'd then injured myself I might well have decided to take legal action.
I think that's the difference for me, I'd make my own judgement and act on it. If I am injured and can't work I lose money because no work = no money in my job. So if I felt the YO had been negligent I would sue. If I felt in myself that the YO hadn't been negligent I wouldn't sue.

 

[Jesstickle]

I just choked on my pizza, i mean WTF goes through their minds

Dunno. There is something especially special about horsey bosses I went to pick up said hat when I was still on crutches three months later and they tried to give me someone else's rubbishy kids jockey skull when the one I had had on was a really nice Charles Owen J3 with all the properly laced leather harness. Mate told me it had been rehomed to one of the lads. Oh well. Like I say, chalked it up to experience and got out of working with horses pretty sharpish!

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

If I slipped on my yard i couldnt sue anyone but myself as I am there myself and its MY responsibility to clear paths so I dont slip.

When your running a business I see it as different. You HAVE to clear paths for people and horses (I had to do it in the winter when I worked on a yard, salt and shovel were my friend!!) so if someone slips because you were negligent in your duties to clear a path or the yard then I think she has every right to sue. Shes incurring expenses, might not be able to do her job and is in discomfort all because someone didnt do something that takes 15/20mins to do

 

[cbmcts]

What nobody seems to have mentioned is that it is relatively easy for YO to protect themselves and no, it doesn't mean banning all liveries All a YO needs to do is highlight hazardous areas i.e with notices warning of slippy areas and in cases like the one mentioned in the other thread the onus of care moves to the OP. Of course, this assumes that it is a hazard that is isn't 'reasonable' to fix immediately.

ALL yards/businesses should have a H&S policy, it is very often part of the small print of your insurance and done regularly it only takes minutes to update. And believe me, if you don't have your risk assessments and other paperwork up to date you have very little chance of defending a claim against you - on the flip side if they are up to date you have immediately have a very strong defence against negligence, also your insurance company will not be able to withdraw cover from your business.

To the people who had accidents while working - did you fill/have filled in accident books as a record of your injury? Was the Health and Safety Executive informed of your absence from work as required by law(RIDDOR)?
If not, why not? These are legal requirements..... Company owners/directors have ended up being prosecuted for not following these laws!

FWIW, I consider the DIY part of livery to include the care of the horse not the maintenance of the fabric of the yard and land.....

I personally wouldn't claim for the 'pain and suffering' part of an injury as long as it was temporary but if I had long term physical damage and/or suffered financial losses, then sorry, but I would consider suing.

*runs and hides*

 

[Wagtail]

What nobody seems to have mentioned is that it is relatively easy for YO to protect themselves and no, it doesn't mean banning all liveries All a YO needs to do is highlight hazardous areas i.e with notices warning of slippy areas and in cases like the one mentioned in the other thread the onus of care moves to the OP. Of course, this assumes that it is a hazard that is isn't 'reasonable' to fix immediately.

Sorry, I understand what you are saying but I just had to laugh at the thought of the horses freaking out at all of the new signs around the place, blowing over and rattling across the yard. Putting up notices on all the slippery bits is just not practical on a yard.

Besides I would probably get sued if a livery was knocked over by a horse freaking out at the sign.

 

[Jesstickle]

To the people who had accidents while working - did you fill/have filled in accident books as a record of your injury? Was the Health and Safety Executive informed of your absence from work as required by law(RIDDOR)?
If not, why not?

Because I was carted off in the air ambulance so wasn't there to check it got done!

 

[Patches]

I feel a bit like my posts on this thread are are invisible... if the livery has been negligent (which probably wouldn't be the case on the basic facts of either of the examples you cite), then they deserve to be sued. Negligence is not the same as 'an accident' as calling it 'an accident' (which some things are) implies that no one is to blame. Negligence is having a duty of care towards a person or group of people and not upholding it. Genuine accidents are rare.

Call me a wimp if you like (fwiw I have never brought any claims myself) but I call people who don't uphold their duties negligent. Doesn't matter if they are a Tesco superstore or a one man band, the damage is the same.

I think you're missing the point.....

The whole compensation culture has evolved to challenge the very definition of the word "accident". Infact, it's fair to say that there are no longer any accidents as these no win-no fee lawyers ultimately seem able to find blame in most cases. Somewhere along the line a very loose case was won, which resulted in costing the insurance company a substantial amount of money. It now seems most companies are prepared to settle on whim, however much of an outside chance the case being brought against them seems to have.

 

[Allover]

To the people who had accidents while working - did you fill/have filled in accident books as a record of your injury? Was the Health and Safety Executive informed of your absence from work as required by law(RIDDOR)?
If not, why not? These are legal requirements..... Company owners/directors have ended up being prosecuted for not following these laws!
I personally wouldn't claim for the 'pain and suffering' part of an injury as long as it was temporary but if I had long term physical damage and/or suffered financial losses, then sorry, but I would consider suing.

*runs and hides*

Another fabulous aspect of working in horsey jobs is that the rules are rarely followed, horsey employers get away with murder.

 

[Allover]

I think you're missing the point.....

The whole compensation culture has evolved to challenge the very definition of the word "accident". Infact, it's fair to say that there are no longer any accidents as these no win-no fee lawyers ultimately seem able to find blame in most cases. Somewhere along the line a very loose case was won, which resulted in costing the insurance company a substantial amount of money. It now seems most companies are prepared to settle on whim, however much of an outside chance the case being brought against them seems to have.

From what i understand, and i may be way of the mark, these cases rarely even go to court but are settled before it gets that far?

 

[Patches]

My daughter, when 3 had her thumb shut in the hinge of an exterior door at nursery. Initially, I didn't even consider suing, even though she had it operated on. It was only a month down the line when they said she'd need plastic surgery on it that I instructed solicitors. Nursery were very understanding and didn't contest that they had been negligent, in fact, when she next went in, hinge guards had been fitted on all doors.

Had it been me, I wouldn't have dreamt of suing as I would consider it was my own stupid self but you can't expect a 3 yr old to have that level of reasoning.

So, the same accident with different permutations could call for a different course of action, if you see what I mean.

Allover - sounds a bloody painful injury mind ..... can you still bring yourself to eat lamb, or can you not bear the sight of it ?

Out of interest, and not a criticism, did you sue for financial compensation or just to ensure action was put in place to prevent this happening to another child?

If it was the former, I presume any financial reward has been held in trust for your daughter when she's older? I hope her thumb healed with no lifelong complications.

 

[Patches]

From what i understand, and i may be way of the mark, these cases rarely even go to court but are settled before it gets that far?

Exactly the point I was making!! Insurance companies these days "settle on a whim", after a seemingly easy case to defend was lost, some time ago, setting a precedent (and opening the flood gates) for no win-no fee cases. They refuse to even defend cases these days, even when it would seem they couldn't lose!

I'm guessing this is largely due in fact to most claimants not actually seeking a substantial financial reward. Where settlements of only £3 - £5 are readily accepted, they won't risk the cost of legals fees etc if a case is brought to court and lost, however slim the chance of that happening might be.

 

[Puppy]

PMSL

In fact what they did was promise they would "look after me" financially, and buy me a new jacket to replace the BRAND BLOODY NEW one that had to be cut off. What they did was feck all, apart from turn the heating off in the grooms apartment in -6 degree temps so the pipes burst and flooded my personal effects and then told me i should have had my own insurance. Oh yes and they took my clothes and ariats grasmeres from the hospital and said they would wash and clean them (it was late november and we had had lots of rain and i was lying in inches of mud waiting for the ambulance), when i went to collect my things they were stuffed in a bag in the corner of the tack room untouched

Then take legal action, and claim for your losses

 

[cbmcts]

Sorry, I understand what you are saying but I just had to laugh at the thought of the horses freaking out at all of the new signs around the place, blowing over and rattling across the yard. Putting up notices on all the slippery bits is just not practical on a yard.

Besides I would probably get sued if a livery was knocked over by a horse freaking out at the sign.

In the case of ice, one sign at the entrance is all that is required
The whole point of doing things properly is to prevent YOU being sued in the first place....

Because I was carted off in the air ambulance so wasn't there to check it got done!

Did you check when you got out of hospital? Probably not as it didn't occur to you but if you ended up with permanent damage it would leave you unprotected as there would be no record of your accident. Employers Liability Insurance is there to protect both employees and employers - you get compensated for damage/loss following an accident and your employer doesn't go bankrupt paying it from their own pocket.Afterall, it's just the same as claiming your vets fees, house or car insurance.

Another fabulous aspect of working in horsey jobs is that the rules are rarely followed, horsey employers get away with murder.

IMHO it's because of people like yor employers that there is the whole 'no win, no fee' culture.....if people followed the rules,remembering that all you have to do is minimise risk, there would be little or no market for these firms

 

[Tinypony]

What nobody seems to have mentioned is that it is relatively easy for YO to protect themselves and no, it doesn't mean banning all liveries All a YO needs to do is highlight hazardous areas i.e with notices warning of slippy areas and in cases like the one mentioned in the other thread the onus of care moves to the OP. Of course, this assumes that it is a hazard that is isn't 'reasonable' to fix immediately.

ALL yards/businesses should have a H&S policy, it is very often part of the small print of your insurance and done regularly it only takes minutes to update. And believe me, if you don't have your risk assessments and other paperwork up to date you have very little chance of defending a claim against you - on the flip side if they are up to date you have immediately have a very strong defence against negligence, also your insurance company will not be able to withdraw cover from your business.

To the people who had accidents while working - did you fill/have filled in accident books as a record of your injury? Was the Health and Safety Executive informed of your absence from work as required by law(RIDDOR)?
If not, why not? These are legal requirements..... Company owners/directors have ended up being prosecuted for not following these laws!

FWIW, I consider the DIY part of livery to include the care of the horse not the maintenance of the fabric of the yard and land.....

I personally wouldn't claim for the 'pain and suffering' part of an injury as long as it was temporary but if I had long term physical damage and/or suffered financial losses, then sorry, but I would consider suing.

*runs and hides*

Are you sure? When I was involved in H+S we would have considered that the signs just demonstrated an awareness of the hazard, which should then be made safe. If he put up notices about ice, I wonder how long it would be reasonable to expect he could ignore the problem and not deal with it.

 

[Jesstickle]

I
Did you check when you got out of hospital? Probably not as it didn't occur to you but if you ended up with permanent damage it would leave you unprotected as there would be no record of your accident.

No I was in for a week and then back and forth having surgery and generally being crippled. Besides, I still wouldn't have made a claim anyway. I think I was at least half to blame for not raising my concerns and falling off is part and parcel of working with horses I think. And it was cool to get a helicopter ride so all in all I'm happy

 

[quirky]

Out of interest, and not a criticism, did you sue for financial compensation or just to ensure action was put in place to prevent this happening to another child?

If it was the former, I presume any financial reward has been held in trust for your daughter when she's older? I hope her thumb healed with no lifelong complications.

Ooh, difficult one.

I didn't sue initially because I thought it'd be a 'done and dusted' injury with no lasting effects. When it turned out it wasn't going to be (a month later after 3 times a week visits to hospital), I decided to sue so my daughter had money in the future to be able to mask/disguise her injury.
We went on holiday a week after it happened and had to take her to the local hospital for dressing changes and swimming was out, it pretty much ruined the holiday. I could have pressed to be recompensed for that but I didn't, I did it purely for my daughter.

My suing wouldn't have made any difference to the nursery operating practices, they lied on the RIDDOR as to how the accident happened to cover their own backs. I found out when I was sent a copy of their form by the solicitors dealing with my case. They cared very little and although I reluctantly sued them, they fully understood and said they'd do the same in my position.

Yes, all money is held in Court Funds until she is 18. Apparently, you can apply to the court and request a release of funds but it has to be a valid reason ie. an educational school trip. We won't be doing that, it is her money to do as she wishes.

 

[cbmcts]

Are you sure? When I was involved in H+S we would have considered that the signs just demonstrated an awareness of the hazard, which should then be made safe. If he put up notices about ice, I wonder how long it would be reasonable to expect he could ignore the problem and not deal with it.

According to my training you only have to minimise risk (it's impossible to eliminate it). It also comes down to what is 'reasonable' - it wouldn't be acceptable to leave live electric wires dangling, for instance as there is a very high risk that an accident would happen but as long as basic precautions were taken with ice (notice and maybe a bucket under a leak or have it taped off) then, as weather is something that is uncontrollable.

 

[zoeshiloh]

We recently had a big H&S briefing at work - our insurers (NFU) basically came in and said you are pretty much screwed if anything at all happens, even if you have taken every possible step to prevent it, and what is worse, even if they person claiming against you doesn't have a case, it is normally cheaper for the insurer to settle out of court than drag it out in a court case! Of course, this cost is then passed on to you in higher premiums!

Recently one of OH's employees had an accident whilst at work - he ignored his training, and company procedure, and tried to fix something "quickly" taking shortcuts. It resulted in a massive electric shock (which he was lucky to survive) and broken bones, over a year off work etc. Despite it being 100% his fault, he had completely disregarded company policy and procedure, the insurers still paid out a massive amount to him!

One of my horses recently had an accident - we believe he jumped out of his stable. He cut his leg, and I was worried it might scar - I bought him primarily to show. I had LOU insurance, so sounded out the insurers whether I could claim on this should the worse happen. I was told by them (very reputable insurer) that they would pay out BUT they would then seek costs from the YO, as apparently there is a "duty of care" regardless of whether it is full or DIY livery. Thankfully there was no lasting damage, and no mark whatsoever has remained, but I would not have wanted to go down the route of claiming from YO even if the worst had happened - although they are insured, I do not see how it was their fault (horse is on DIY), and besides that, I think a lot of our YO and I wouldn't want to put her through it. There was also the fact that my horse damaged her stable whilst jumping out, and who is liable for that cost (we repaired it quite happily) for surely if we sued her for damage to the horse, she could counter sue for damage to the stable! It all seems a bit ridiculous! I have fitted a grill to my horse's door which prevents it happening again (which YO was happy for me to do). It was just "one of those things" - the horse is the most laid back animal in the world, no one could have predicted it happening so why should anyone take the blame?

 

[littleme]

I don't think I was particularly vitriolic. I hope I wasn't but I am pretty vehemently anti litigation. In this case it seems to me the whole situation could have been avoided if the liveries had taken some responsibility in making the situation safe themselves and that is what I based my opinion on.

If my YO did something absolutely outrageous, say turned out my horse with a new horse without my permission and without proper introduction and my horse was seriously injured I can just about imagine being peed off enough to take legal action, but for trips, slips and falls. No, I never would. I have eyes in my head and supposedly a brain between my ears and if something was dangerous I would fix it or avoid it.

Totally agree. Can't stand this sueing culture!