Clamp nosebands

Jennyharvey

Jennyharvey

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Hiya. On the front page of H&H today, there is a picture of pippa funnel on her winning horse. But i cant get over how tight his flash noseband is. Does any one else have a problem with these nosebands, any sort that close the horses mouth?
I dunno, maybe its just me but i would rather my horse learn to accept the bit(if he wore one) and keep his mouth closed. Instead of needing a device to keep it closed. At the end of the day, the only reason a horse will open his mouth is to avoid the pain caused by the bit. If you solve the problem, there is no need for these types of noseband. Especially tight ones, as seen on pippa's horse.
 
some people use crank nosebands, there done up really tight, i myself prefer a plain caveson that's not done up too tight, i agree with you, proper schooling and acceptance of the bit is far better than some contraption.
 
I totaly disagree that a horse only opens it mouth to get away from pain caused by the bit. My mare will do it to try and get her own way eg if I ride her in a snaffle or a 3 ring bit she knows that by opening her mouth she can get away with doing things. But if I put her myler combination bit in she doesnt open her mouth no matter how much rein contact is applied.
 
Completely agree with you jennyharvey. few horses really need to have their mouth clamped shut, other than a short-term 'fix'.

Don't really understand you post berry. You are basically saying with the two bits, horse opens mouth, with the third type he doesn't. Does this not suggest he is unhappy in two but happy with the third?:confused:
 
Donkeymad said:
Completely agree with you jennyharvey. few horses really need to have their mouth clamped shut, other than a short-term 'fix'.

Don't really understand you post berry. You are basically saying with the two bits, horse opens mouth, with the third type he doesn't. Does this not suggest he is unhappy in two but happy with the third?:confused:
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Its saying that she knows how to evade cetain bits. She is an extremmley (sp) strong mare when doing faster work or when wound up, in the combination she respects it more because of the pressure points. However I dont like riding her in strong bits all the time so sometimes I will put a snaffle in her mouth if I know we are very unlikley to be doing anything which sets her off ie just doing road work!!. But on the times where she has went off in one in a snaffle she will open or cross her jaw because she knows she can.
 
berry said:
Its saying that she knows how to evade cetain bits. She is an extremmley (sp) strong mare when doing faster work or when wound up, in the combination she respects it more because of the pressure points. However I dont like riding her in strong bits all the time so sometimes I will put a snaffle in her mouth if I know we are very unlikley to be doing anything which sets her off ie just doing road work!!. But on the times where she has went off in one in a snaffle she will open or cross her jaw because she knows she can.
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Or because it hurts?
I think a lot of people underestimate the amount of pain the bit causes. The only time the bit doesnt hurt the horse is when its never used.
I think that people are so convinced that we need to put something in our horses mouth to be able to control them, that we really do believe the bit doesnt harm the horse.
I would rather not use something in case it hurts them, instead of use something with the chance it doesnt.
 
Oh God Jennyharvey I so agree!!! I've been thinking on posting something similar recently.

What happened to the old rule that you should be able to fit 2 fingers under a noseband?
This included the lower strap of a flash/grackle/drop.

I realise that some horses need a noseband that will stop them opening their mouth and locking the jaw sideways (i.e. berry's mare) to avoid the bit. But it doesn't need to be done up as tight as it can.

The whole concept of a 'Crank' noseband I find horrifying, just the name should put everyone off using one. Considering all the outrage recently about the use of rolukur and other techniques that force a horse into a position I can't understand how they slipped under the radar.
As others have said if your horse opens its mouth when schooling you obviously have some fundamental issues to work on - like accepting contact.
Apart from that they have to be SO uncomfortable for the horse. How would you like a leather strap clamping your mouth shut?
There is one horse on my yard who is ridden in a tight crank-flash noseband - this gelding is the sweetest most obliging chap you will ever meet, but he just about stands on his hindlegs when it comes to having his bridle put on he hates it so much.

They are also used by bad riders to cover come a whole load of issues that are the riders fault. I regularly ride/school horses for people that are busy/away and 90% of the horses I can ride in a loose plain cavesson and get them going as well or better than their owners happily accepting the bit just becasue I'm able to use that forgot tool 'The Seat'.
 
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Some horses do open their mouths purely to avoid having to work hard. The mare I've been riding recently does, she will open her mouth so that she can ignore the rein aids and run through the hand. With her mouth "strapped shut" she will realise this option isn't open to her stop fighting and work nicely. She isn't in any pain, and does have the schooling to work correctly, she just prefers not to make the effort.

Having said that, a drop noseband will acheive the same effect without needing to be adjusted so tightly and is therefore kinder. I would prefer to ride in a drop and would prefer to see others doing so too, but they seem to be out of fashion. The only reason for using a flash rather than a drop is that you can use a standing martingale with it, and very few people use those these days.

It is the pure mechanics, I don't see the point of an overly tight crank or flash when you could have a looser drop and the same end result.

Oh and FWIW I've no objections to grakles where needed.
 
Katt said:
Some horses do open their mouths purely to avoid having to work hard. The mare I've been riding recently does, she will open her mouth so that she can ignore the rein aids and run through the hand. With her mouth "strapped shut" she will realise this option isn't open to her stop fighting and work nicely. She isn't in any pain, and does have the schooling to work correctly, she just prefers not to make the effort.

Having said that, a drop noseband will acheive the same effect without needing to be adjusted so tightly and is therefore kinder. I would prefer to ride in a drop and would prefer to see others doing so too, but they seem to be out of fashion. The only reason for using a flash rather than a drop is that you can use a standing martingale with it, and very few people use those these days.

It is the pure mechanics, I don't see the point of an overly tight crank or flash when you could have a looser drop and the same end result.

Oh and FWIW I've no objections to grakles where needed.
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I wonder if people who ride horses that open there mouths, were to ride bitless and see what happens. Its weird to me that people blame the horse for not wanting to work, and why would they with something uncomfortable in their mouths.
Maybe if bitless was more widely accepted and more people were made aware of the benefits, and it could become legal in competitions, that a lot of these strong bits and clamp nosebands wouldnt be needed to make a horse work.

I have seen first hand how a horse who opens mouth and doesnt want to work, can be transformed into a willing partner just by removing the bit. I guess its just kind of an alien concept to remove the bit and put the point of communication somewhere else.
 
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Interestingly this mare is ridden in a very mild loose ring shaped NS lozenge. She doesn't open her mouth and resist if ridden in a double or a pelham.

Because she is only ridden in one of those bits when it means work, she respects it and knows that she won't "get away" with going like a yack, so she gets on with it. She works in a riding school, she's a bright horse with a lot of physical strength and she likes to test her limits. If she was in pain you would know about it very quickly!

Sadly as she isn't mine the choice of what bit/noseband/bridle she goes in isn't mine......

Personally I don't necessarily think bitless is the answer, it can be for some horses, they are individuals and have their own preferences and quirks. I have ridden in one, but bitless bridles can be very harsh. A hackamore is not kinder than riding in a snaffle.

For example I know of a couple of horses with very sensitive noses, who could not cope with bitless, one goes beautifully and will do half pass and passage in a snaffle with no noseband (not dressage legal I know, for dressage he has a noseband unfastened that is worn only for the test), the other is actually happiest in a twisted snaffle (it isn't sharp like a corkscrew before people jump on me, it is more of a spiral) he had a myler comfort snaffle for a while and was noticeably uncomfortable in it, he is fine with a loose cavesson but can't take pressure on his nose. Lots of horses won't tolerate poll pressure and for them bitless would also be impossible.

Lots of horses go best in mexican grakles, not because they need their mouths clamping shut but because they find the cavesson uncomfortable on their cheeks. I know a couple that are fine and happy in a fairly loose mexican grackle, happier than in a cavesson regardless of how they are ridden.

It really is horses for courses, and unless you have sat on the horse in question you really can't say whether it is a rider issue, a training issue, or a bitting/tack issue or what is best for it. I dislike this "shutting its mouth is cruel" approach, there is no one approach that works for all horses, without a doubt these nosebands are overused and people do not question the tack their horses are in enough (how many people when asked about their tack reply "Oh this is what he came in" and have never wondered whether what he came in is suitable). There is also far too much following of fashions in something that should be chosen to suit the horse and rider not because such and such showjumper uses one.
 
Oh and bitless bridles are legal for showjumping and for everything but dressage in eventing, there was a time when hackamores were VERY fashionable for showjumping.

Do not think that a horse will be more "comfortable" with leverage being applied to the nose and poll than it would be with pressure to the tongue/bars/lips. Some horses may prefer this, but there is still pressure. There has to be as this is the method of communication, the issue is getting the most effective form of communication for that individual horse.
 
I wouldn't normally reply to this type of post, but it really riles me!

Of course in a perfect world every horse would go sweetly in nothing more that a rope headcoller or simple snaffle.

But we don't live in a perfect world. Some horses, no matter how well schooled they are, can be fly to evading the bit. People who criticize others, quite often experienced riders, for using stronger bits or nosebands have clearly never ridden a VERY strong horse.

I am certainly not advocating the misuse of strong bits or tying a horses mouth shut, but in some certain circumstances a snuggly fitted crank noseband can be very effective. And I certainly feel that unfortunately very useful bits now have a bad reputation due to them being fashion accessories and used by very inexperienced riders.

As for suggesting we should be more open to bitless, this is an interesting point. Unless you look at straightforward scrawbrig, or even a bosal (if an englishman could fit one correctly), hackamores can be extremely severe and even lethal in a novices hands. Most people see an english hackamore as not much more than a headcoller, yet every time rein pressure is applied, it squeezes the jaws.

Hackamores, like other bits and nosebands should be used with care and consideration for every horse and not as a quick fix. But schooling will not always make a strong horse easier to handle
 
I guess i should know better than to start a debate on bits vs bitless. Sorry if i have bothered anyone.

Foxglove, you do make very valid points. We dont live in an ideal world, and very often the actual training of the horse is not as good as it could be, so people opt for certain gadgets to aid in training. I quite often advise people with exercises that can help with their brakes, but quite often they dont want to know, they just want a quick fix and a stronger bit.
I think there is also a misenterpretation around bitless bridles. I dont think we can class them all as the same thing. The hackamore, for example, is very severe, especially in novice hands. Whereas, a snaffle or pelham in good hands is quite mild.

There are so many different styles of bitless, and i dont tend to class a hackamore as one that i would use. I normally ride in a rope halter, or a Dr cooks. Although not all my horses like the Dr cooks. I like the halter because the horse knows how to respond to the nose pressure. So as soon as i ask for a halt from any pace, i just pick up the reins and the horse stops. Im not a big fan of any bridle that restricts around any part of the head. Thats why i rarely use the Dr cooks, except to compete. I dont think the horse needs his head squeezed or pressure on his poll to work well. I like to use the mildest and lightest bridle, so that my horse is always light for me.

I suppose the thing that is most important is the actual training of the horse. Im not sure how many people who how soft and light a horse can be with the correct training, in a bit or without one. We teach the horse everything he knows. If we teach him to pull and resist, he will. If we teach him to be as light as a feather, he will be.
Even a strong horse can be taught to come lightly off pressure, but it has to be taught well, and quite often from the ground.

I guess im not really a believer in strong horses needing bigger bits. I believe strong horses need training to not be strong. We tend to teach horses to be strong. Maybe out hunting, and the horse gets a bit carried away. If we start to pull on him, he will resist. I guess the trick is to not ever let the horse learn to pull in the first place.
Back to the main point, i feel that correct training should always be more important about which bit or flash to use. Its a matter of finding what your horse likes wearing, so that he doesnt need to wear a restrictive noseband.
In my opinion, if a horse is happy in his mouth, he wont open his mouth or evade the contact. All you have to do it remove the bit and see how he goes. If he still opens his mouth and tries to evade the contact, then the problem isnt the bit.

Again, sorry if what i say bugs any one. Just puting my opinion out there.
 
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I use a crank noseband however I dont use it to clamp my horses mouth shut, I do it up so that two fingers can be fitted underneath like with any other noseband, I simply use it because of the padding under the chin which my mare much prefers to a normal noseband
 
Crank noseband is different from a clamp noseband, they are not used as a flash to keep the mouth closed as far as i know. I dont have an issue with this type of noseband, as they can be adjusted to be quite loose if required.
 
QR

If people are going to start slagging people off saying that people (ie Pippa) are finding a "quick fix" rather than schooling I'd say you are wrong.
At the end of the day Pippa Funnel produces most of her horses from youngsters bringing them on correctly. How many of us bring on our youngsters to 4* level?

I aggree with princesssparkle, I think it looks tighter because nostrils are flared

(fwiw I use a plain cavesson if that makes anything any better)
 
ilovecobs said:
some people use crank nosebands, there done up really tight, i myself prefer a plain caveson that's not done up too tight, i agree with you, proper schooling and acceptance of the bit is far better than some contraption.
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Are yiu trying to say Pippa doesn't school her horses properly? Let's see you don what she does aye!!!
 
Jennyharvey said:
Or because it hurts?
I think a lot of people underestimate the amount of pain the bit causes. The only time the bit doesnt hurt the horse is when its never used.
I think that people are so convinced that we need to put something in our horses mouth to be able to control them, that we really do believe the bit doesnt harm the horse.
I would rather not use something in case it hurts them, instead of use something with the chance it doesnt.
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Agree with this.
Don't forget single jointed snaffles press on the roof of the mouth as well as a 'nutcracker' action on the tongue and bars... I think I'd open my mouth to evade something poking me in the roof of my mouth...
Shutting the mouth then with a tight flash... well just think about it? Imagine what happens...

Link to interesting articles http://sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php#flash
 
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amandap said:
Agree with this.
Don't forget single jointed snaffles press on the roof of the mouth as well as a 'nutcracker' action on the tongue and bars... I think I'd open my mouth to evade something poking me in the roof of my mouth...
Shutting the mouth then with a tight flash... well just think about it? Imagine what happens...

Link to interesting articles http://sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php#flash
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I never ride my horse in single jointed bits as she has a shallow palate but she still opens her mouth when she wants to evade the bit as said on my prevoius post!!!!!!
 
I was making a general comment on single jointed snaffles berry not meant to point it at anyone in particular. Snaffles are often considered the most 'gentle' bit.
I suppose it's down to how we see bits, as a tool for communication or control?
I personally am not opposed to bits themselves, just the way they are sometimes used.Not meaning anyone in particular here btw. One thing in these discussions that interests me is that people see horses as 'evading' the bit...
Surely it's up to us to use the bit in a way the horse will accept not force him to accept it...
I see a different emphasis here but of course I'm not the most experienced rider...
 
I ride my horse in a loose ring KK Dynamic. She goes very nicely in it until anything exciting happens, then she will hold her head sideways and open her mouth to do what she wants to do and no amount of schooling will change that.

I also have a flash crank noseband which I like because it keep the buckles away from her face which is v. sensitive. It is fitted with two fingers room on each part and a gel pad instead of the leather pad to cushion her jaw bones.

Using that noseband means I can do most things on a somewhat excitable horse in the kindest bit I can find.
 
QR

I would feel rather uncomfortable questionning Pippa Funnel's choice of bit or any other part of the tack, and wouldn't like to say anything is a quick fix at the level of training and professionalism required for eventing at that level.

In my opinion, choose whats best for the horse. Personally, for schooling I don't use a flash, martingale and he has a snaffle but when out on a hack or hunting I have been unable to stop easily without flash and stronger bit. This doesn't mean my horse is unschooled or in pain just very excitable and I would prefer to be safer and have a bit more control.
 
I admire any one competes at a high level. I have no interest in it though.
Im also not addressing any one in particular, just as a general observation.
I guess my main problem with any one who competes at a high level is that sometimes they will do whatever they have to do to get results. That might mean using a harsher bit, smacking the horse more, gadgets etc. Im not taking about any one person, just in general. I worked at a jumping yard in Australia for a while, and even though she was a top show jumping rider, i lost all respect for her because of the way she treated her horses. Im not saying everyone is like this,(but i doutb she is the only rider like this) but if you have people paying you to win, maybe you are more likely to take short cuts or even abuse to improve your chances of success. So just because pippa or any one else is able to produce a horse to win, doesnt actually mean anything to me. The horse is always number one to me, no prize will ever make me put a bit or straps on my horse to make him perform.
I guess what i see as animal abuse is quite often termed 'training' by equestrians.
 
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