Clarification on the Barefoot/Shoes debate

roshah

roshah

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Hi... I'd just like clarification on the barefoot/shoes debate, which admittedly is fairly new to me. When I started riding 20 years ago, horses had shoes, simple as.

I've returned to riding recently... and now it seems like most people are almost apologetic for having their horse wear shoes. This I find a bit strange. I trust you aren't doing a lot of roadwork then without shoes, mainly on a surfaced arena? Do people really gallop and event without shoes?

My ID gelding has never had shoes and creeps along tarmac and over stones. He has extremely sensitive feet. I have been advised by both by farrier and sveral friends, as well as a trainer, that a horse really must have shoes if we're going to do road work... one friend was actually a little disgusted that I was considering keeping him barefoot knowing how much work on the roads I do per week. TBH I think I'm a bit of a traditionalist and would prefer him have a set of shoes.

Does anyone have any links to veterinary journals on the topic? I'd really like to know the science, rather than simply hearsay or personal opinion.

thanks and sorry for what has probably been a well discussed topic previously.
 
I am tempted to just not bother replying as these threads often turn into a bunfight......

But I'll tell you my story......

When I first started with horses, if I wanted to ride a horse it needed to be shod.

The Farrier had sole control over my horse's feet and I need not worry about a thing.

Then I had a break from horses for a few years while I had my son (surprise!) and put myself through uni.

When I got my horse back from loan I carried on as normal and put shoes on to ride.

Then I got a second horse. A BIG one. With HUGE feet.

Farrier said it would cost me extra to have him shod.

That's when I started looking around for alternatives!

There was the option of boots, but not in my horse's size.

So I did a little research and discovered that some nuts from the internet were claiming that horses could work WITHOUT shoes:o

Seven years later and I have learnt alot of things.

I've learnt that when a horse has trouble on certain surfaces, that I should look into the cause and fix it rather than just slap some shoes on and ignore it.

I've learnt that Farriers and Vets are not gods and that I have a responsibility to look after my horses' feet and health. And that sometimes SOME Farriers and Vets don't really know what they're talking about.

I've learnt that remedial farriery and all its wonderous tools are just a poor and expensive mimic of a balanced, bare hoof.

I've learnt that feed companies take the p*** and overcharge us for crap feeds that don't help.

I've learnt what a healthy diet can do for a horse - miracles!

I've learnt that navicular is no longer a death sentance.

I've learnt that lots of issues like laminitis, navicular, tendon issues, behavioural issues, tripping, corns, thin soles, lacklustre preformance, joint issues and lots of other things can be helped by simply taking the shoes off and letting the feet do their thing without inteference.

From time to time someone will post on here with a problem and a few of us will try to point out that taking the shoes off may help.

Then the name calling starts.

Apparantley it's a sinister cult;)

But if anyone wants to put shoes on their horse - then cool.

None of my business what they do.
 
^ Almost the same story!, although I do have one of my ponies shod, even after trying for three years barefoot, and being treated the same as the others he is still uncomfortable over some terain. I need to exercise this pony everyday to keep his weight down :)

So, like Oberon says, what works for one and all that;

Oh and I've tried every boot in the book! none stay on his little feet, his name's not Turbo for nothing!
 
Well my farrier refused to put shoes on my cob cos his feet were 'too good' he does everything without his shoes and to date has never been even a bit 'footy' I like to see a set of shoes on a horse tbh as I think they look smart and my DWB is shod as his feet flakPpe v easily. I personally am of the belief that it depends on the horse... Saying you can change the nature of a horse's hooves by diet is like saying that everyone can have perfect fingernails... A nice dream but not entirely realistic....**ducks for cover**
 
Depends on the horse really, Mine get shod if they need it, others can work better without. I prefer them to be unshod,, but if its isn't working and they are uncomfortable, they get shoes. My hacking cob can do miles of roadwork daily and has such good feet, he manages fine with a trim.
Stay open minded, get the info but steer clear of evangelists and if your horse is comfortable, moving freely without shoes and able to do all you ask of him, then save your money and leave them off.
 
You are entitled to your opinion.

With regards to hoof improvement through diet, I have seen it with my own eyes.

Stuff like Farrier's Formula etc is around for a reason.

Our fingernails can't be compared to a hoof.
 
Op, I think that sometimes we need our horses to wear shoes more than the horse actually needs to wear them, if that makes sense. If a horse doesn't take easily to going "bare" then there are various things to take into account when looking for the reason. Diet, environment and management and of course the way the horse is trimmed will all need to be considered.
I suppose if I had a barefoot horse and it wasn't quite working, but I wanted to keep it that way, I'd do a lot of reading and get a really good recommended trimmer in for a second opinion and advice.
I could be wrong, but I don't think people are going to be able to refer you to a set of veterinary journals on the topic (yet!). However, if you are interested there are plenty of interesting sources of information, including Rockley Farm, quoted on the many previous threads.
Yes, you can compete and event barefoot (I have several friends out doing that). Of course you can gallop! Yes you can ride on varied surfaces with no problem, including roads which should be one of the easier surfaces. If your horse can't be ridden at all paces and be sound on the road when barefoot, and you tend to prefer shoes, then just shoe him.
As you say, there have been many discussions about this recently, and people have patiently typed out reams of information. So maybe, if you want to find out more, it would be a good idea to do a simple search and have a read? If you'd prefer your horse to have shoes, as you say you would, then why bother? Just get shoes on him.
 
blitznbobs said:
Ok inform me how keratin differs between horse and human???
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I think Oberon means that a horse's hoof is not just solid keratin like a human fingernail. It's an incredibly complex structure; only the outer hoof wall is made of keratin, and the health of this part of the hoof is just a small piece of the overall puzzle.

Besides, I'd disagree with you on your original comparison; I think saying that every horse can function perfectly well without shoes is more like saying that every person can have perfectly functional fingernails. Which is true, given correct diet and care.
 
horserider said:
Depends on the horse really, Mine get shod if they need it, others can work better without. I prefer them to be unshod,, but if its isn't working and they are uncomfortable, they get shoes. My hacking cob can do miles of roadwork daily and has such good feet, he manages fine with a trim.
Stay open minded, get the info but steer clear of evangelists and if your horse is comfortable, moving freely without shoes and able to do all you ask of him, then save your money and leave them off.
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This is correct. I am having fronts on my horse for a couple of months as the ground has been very hard, his feet are now very short and I don't want to compromise on the riding we are doing.

But we have been happily barefoot upto now and will go barefoot come the wetter weather. When he was younger he was quite trippy and I went barefoot as I felt it was easier for him.

So just use your common sense and don't forget that you know your horse better than anyone else on the forum!!
 
When we take shoes off the wall is compromised by nail holes, and the sole and frog are not toughened up, so at first it is most likely that the horse will be sensitive to stones etc, so people are likely to panic and put the shoes back on, rather than adjusting the riding schedule and general management.
With regard to diet, horses feet are sensitive to sugars in grass, which also makes them footy, and of course the sugars in grass varies day to day and season to season.
Supplements are often used to strengthen hoofs, minerals and vitamins are used as supplements, there are special mixes based on organic sources, and micronised linseed meal is generally recognised as a good food additive, the main thing is to have a fibre based diet, low sugars.
Scientific advice is thin on the ground because we can't really do experiments and compare results as horses and their management vary so much. but Rockley Farm have done some work so it is worth reading up on their ideas, which I have found to be sensible.
There are some "scientific" papers available, but I find them hard going, not to say confusing.
Farriers are trained to shoe horses, that is their background, though most will say shoe-ing is a necessary evil, but they make a living from nailing steel on feet, so only a few will be interested in barefoot horses.
Vets are trained in conventional methods, and will not have much practical experience, they don't look at feet or trim feet day to day,, vet schools and equime practices will usually have a farrier attached who they consult with, and who shoe, they will not often recommend barefoot for problems because ther will be no instant result, and everyone wants an instant result.
you say your horse struggles on roads, and it may be that if you want to try barefoot, you remove the hinds first and see how it goes.
People hack out on roads, and it is argued that the hoof will grow in response to wear.
There is no doubt barefoot is controversial, particularly if the horse has problematic feet, but also it is possible if we have the time and facilities and the will, though it may be easier to shoe.
Feet First is a good read, and will give anyone with a horse an education in feet, their anatomy and their management.
 
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One horse has shoes, the other does not. We have an excellent farrier and no problems.

Depends on the horse.

As for being apologetic, not from me! I'll do what I think is right by my horse, I don't pull any punches when it comes to them, as they belong to me.

A few have tried (and failed) in the past to 'try' to tell me 'how it should be done', not just with shoes, but with other things too....and they get sent away with a flea in their ear!

If something works for someone and their horse, then good luck to them, I don't interfere, and I certainly don't expect back 'opinions' of what they feel is right. I listen to the people I pay for their professional services.

Same with training, if it works, then thats great.
 
My stance (& my farriers) on it all if your horse is happy and sound without shoes *kerching* save money no shoes

If your horse is foot sore and hoof wear overtakes hoof growth then pop shoes on..... Simple
 
We were barefoot for 5 years - a decision I made because of my mares turned in heals. and it completely opened up the shape of her foot. Road work was never a problem in fact she improved but was always picky over stones. This summer I have had to put fronts back on because our new yard is made up of reycycled tarmac - very stoney and her feet were constantly tender she was reluctant to work and I was reluctant and felt guilty to work her as the walk to the school was so painful and if we went hacking I had to mount on the road !! I was also close to starving her thinking that would improve the situation - it didn't.

They have been back on 4 weeks and the change is fantastic - I went against everything I thought was right to do it but I am very very pleased that I did.

I plan for them to come of in the depths of winter time and go back on in spring
 
roshah said:
Does anyone have any links to veterinary journals on the topic? I'd really like to know the science, rather than simply hearsay or personal opinion.
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Don't know of any Vet Journals but here's some research going on about navicular. http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/RockleyFarm/Research.html
Of course funding is the major issue with research in this area so many of us turn to the thousands and thousands of anecdotal examples for answers to our problems.

If you google Dr Robert Bowker, Prof Chris Pollitt, Dr James Rooney you should find links to their research. Some of James Rooney's research into cause of navicular (1970's) was ignored for many years (and is still ignored by many Vets I believe) and for me is an example of the single minded arrogance of humans towards horses. We think we know best and carry on with our medical models regardless. The barefoot approach is based on listening to horses by observing their response to dietry and management changes and looking at the horse as a whole being not just looking at four hooves in isolation.
Most evidence and research is pointing to diet and management being crucial.
Makes sense to me, after all we are what we eat.

It's a case of reading as much as you can and making your own mind up. Learning what healthy hooves are and looking closely at your horses with different eyes.

Mta. Not a scientist, an ex Farrier but a great place to start. Read his articles and follow his links. http://www.hoofrehab.com/
 
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I think Amanda is right, there is little published scientific evidence for the benefits of barefoot. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't any - to me it seems madness to believe that nailing a solid metal structure to a living hoof can be a good idea. The only time it would seem reasonable is where you have a healthy hoof and for some reason need to use studs (eventing for example, and then only for brief periods of the year) - at the moment I don't think there are any hoof boots that can do this well. Otherwise, use boots! The more people that use them, the more the technology is pushed forwards, and better and better hoof boots are the result. If you look at the changes that have occurred in boots over just the past 6 years or so, you can see that working. For me, it is similar to the change that has occurred in rug technology - 15 years ago, I would have struggled to keep my slightly wimpy TB out all winter in the north of Scotland. Now I can put him in fantastically warm and waterproof rugs and he has a lovely time outside. The technology has allowed this - we should embrace it as the sensible route for feet too and drop the 'traditional is best' attitude that much of the horse world seems to suffer from!
 
I'm sitting here winding myself up about 'science'... science ( in this instance) is only as good as it is 'true' to the natural world. :p

Here's the link to LucyPriories' blog. She posts on here and reading blogs and cases like this is I believe just as (if not more) important as any formal research. http://www.barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/

:D
 
I'm not getting into a debate on shod horses V barefoot horses so my comments below are MY OPINION only.

I have four horses, all are barefoot. Three of them have never had shoes, simply as they don't need them. My old boy was shod when I first brought him, I decided to transition to barefoot as I believe barefoot is better for the horses feet, lower limbs and general well-being.

ALL of my horses hack, school, jump and compete barefoot. They have fantastic feet and do not have any problems on any kind of terrain. My old boy has hunted, XC and SJ'd all barefoot. My mare has EMS, which therefore makes her susceptible to lammi. She can get quite tender in her front feet in which case I use hoof boots.

IMO a healthier foot is one that is not constantly nailed into.

Again, these are just my thoughts which is why I choose for my horses to be barefoot. Those that shoe their horses, so be it, totally up to you. Me personally, barefoot.

xxx
 
soloequestrian said:
I think Amanda is right, there is little published scientific evidence for the benefits of barefoot.
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And there is NONE on the benefits of shoeing, but no-one seems to care two hoots about that. In other words they are perfectly happy to accept anecdotal evidence for shoeing but not for barefoot.



ps there are some studies that we were pointed to by a vet some time ago for shoeing for laminitis and navicular but they all had such tiny numbers, and no control group that they were, scientifically, completely invalid.
 
roshah said:
My ID gelding has never had shoes and creeps along tarmac and over stones. He has extremely sensitive feet. I have been advised by both by farrier and sveral friends, as well as a trainer, that a horse really must have shoes if we're going to do road work..
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Roshah I'll eat my hat if you don't tell us that your IDx is a good doer, and that will probably be the root of his sensitivity issues. He will almost certainly need some fairly drastic restriction in his access to spring and summer grass, particularly during the day. He's also likely to be a type who is very sensitive to low magnesium and copper levels in your grazing, or high manganese and iron which prevent the take-up of copper. If you can get that right and keep him on a no-added-sugar, high fiber diet you may well find that he copes fine without shoes. Do you feed him 25g a day of magnesium oxide? That's the first place to start if not.

Your farrier and friends are likely to be wrong. My farriers were wrong when they told me one of mine would never do it, it's quite common. Your friends and trainer don't know enough to be advising you.

In answer to your questions I have evented five horses barefoot and I currently hunt one and do almost all his fittening work on roads and stony tracks.
 
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