Classical dressage training????? :-O

Batgirl said:
The horse is clearly not right behind and the first woman had no clue and no independent hands, the instructor even says how crap the saddle is. However if you removed the lameness, the saddle, the first woman and the weirdly aggressive 'patting' the principle behind the smack instead of nagging is sound.

However what an awful video to be putting in public.
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This. I'm completely ok with the smacking. The first rider is beyond ineffectual, the horse looks lame (less so towards the end when it's moving forwards though) and the instructor is clearly having to correct the saddle slipping, which isn't on.

I'd smack a horse doing that to me (minus the other issues of tack / rider / lameness) but I wouldn't stick the video on youtube!
 
The first rider was completely ineffective and ruining the pony. The second rider I agree with the principle of squeeze legs then tap with whip but that was just showing off and bad horsemanship. There was no need to hit the pony so hard, why would you want it shooting forward like that anyway. And the patting???? Also, the folk laughing in the background, wtf were they laughing at and why would you put that poor show on YouTube anyway. The mind boggles.
 
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I think if I had been the trainer in that situation ( taking aside the fact it did look quite right from the clip ) when the rider got off ( I have to say that was funny)
I would have got my hands on a lunge line and whip and seen if I could have Got it going that way and seen if it was safe enough to lunge a few minutes with the rider on to try to get her some sort of better feel to end on.
 
Some of the comments on this thread really do just highlight the yawning gaps in peoples riding education if the only way they know to get the horse to go forwards is to boot it or give it a full strength crack with a whip.

Goldenstar Im really gobsmacked by your comment that the instructors whack was a justified correction to the horse ignoring the leg aid, nothing justifies that crack and it doesnt teach the horse to go off the leg either, just puts its adrenaline through the roof and makes it tense more and shut down further than it already was.
 
Goldenstar - I would hope that you would have explained to the rider that kicking and pulling are not riding but were the reason that the horse was not going forward.
 
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TigerTail said:
Some of the comments on this thread really do just highlight the yawning gaps in peoples riding education if the only way they know to get the horse to go forwards is to boot it or give it a full strength crack with a whip.
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Nobody's said it's the only way to get a horse moving forwards, but I do accept it as a last resort - and, when exacted at the right moment, for the right reasons, a forceful reminder to obey the leg can work. You may disagree, but I can assure you, it's not a lack of education, it's merely a difference of opinion. Please step down off your assumed pedestal :rolleyes:
 
Thank you Marydoll for posting that link. The first video sums up everything I found wrong with riding and why I started to get classical lessons instead. Yes I use a whip but it is Never used with force it is there merely to back up the aids if the response is not what I asked for. Just because something is the norm does not make it right or respectful to the horse. I will probably never compete but my view is that I owe it to whatever horse I ride to do it as well as I can in a way that causes them no suffering or discomfort.
 
TigerTail said:
Some of the comments on this thread really do just highlight the yawning gaps in peoples riding education if the only way they know to get the horse to go forwards is to boot it or give it a full strength crack with a whip.

Goldenstar Im really gobsmacked by your comment that the instructors whack was a justified correction to the horse ignoring the leg aid, nothing justifies that crack and it doesnt teach the horse to go off the leg either, just puts its adrenaline through the roof and makes it tense more and shut down further than it already was.
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Ditto.
 
Marydoll i have already explained why i put what i did in the title hun that's why the question marks, its not how i see a classical trainer train, not that im an expert,,, but when it was mentioned that's what she did i was shocked at what i saw, and anyone that justifies a horse being whipped that hard for disobeying aids doesn't deserve to have one...
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I would hope that you would have explained to the rider that kicking and pulling are not riding but were the reason that the horse was not going forward.
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That goes with out saying I would have had the horse on the lunge long before the rider abandoned ship , no matter how badly you ride you can learn if some one grasps the mettle to teach you.
Perhaps the horse does not lunge but if the trainer could have taken control of the forwardness and steering she might then have been able to work on the rider, then at least something constructive was happening.
What happened was the horse sharp worked out to listen to her but it will be no better with its rider.
Why would you put that on your FB ?
 
JFTD said:
Nobody's said it's the only way to get a horse moving forwards, but I do accept it as a last resort - and, when exacted at the right moment, for the right reasons, a forceful reminder to obey the leg can work. You may disagree, but I can assure you, it's not a lack of education, it's merely a difference of opinion. Please step down off your assumed pedestal :rolleyes:
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No thanks - I rather like the view from up here. To me its still a lack of education as given other choices Id hope people who really had respect for the horse and wanted the best from and for them would choose another option.

I highly doubt any of you would belt your dog with a stick with a full over arm whack if it refused to run with you, so why is it acceptable to hit a horse? IT ISNT.
 
I cannot understand how any trainer would think that getting on an obviously exhausted horse and insist on more would teach it anything .. let alone beat it to continue... Perhaps the horse would have reacted quite different had he been fresh in body and mind.
 
JFTD said:
Nobody's said it's the only way to get a horse moving forwards, but I do accept it as a last resort - and, when exacted at the right moment, for the right reasons, a forceful reminder to obey the leg can work. You may disagree, but I can assure you, it's not a lack of education, it's merely a difference of opinion. Please step down off your assumed pedestal :rolleyes:
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Well this occasion wasn't one where that tactic was likely to be effective. A young horse had just been utterly confused by being asked to go forwards and backwards at the same time.
What the trainer should have done was show the rider how riding quietly with correct aids and independent hands gets the desired response from the horse.
I have to agree with Tiger Tail. This thread has been very enlightening in more ways than one.
 
ticobay831 said:
I just googled.... you tube shows another video where she is on british working equitation team, i read somewhere she was a classical trainer but didnt think this was classical training :-/ thats why i put the question marks
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We mustve cross posted re your title for the thread, but the " trainer" can call herself what she likes, that is not classical training and a blind man running for a bus can see the horse is lame
 
That horse is overweight and in pain. Kicking out when leg is applied is not a normal response at all. It's confused by the poor riding and needs to be checked out and ridden by someone competant!
FWIW I can understand that sometimes horses just need a smack- not a proper belt but a good sharp tap instead of nagging with legs can be better- but his other rider was already doing that... and there is no excuse for the repeated wacking when the horse was clearly confused and distressed.
Poor bloody animal
 
TigerTail said:
Some of the comments on this thread really do just highlight the yawning gaps in peoples riding education if the only way they know to get the horse to go forwards is to boot it or give it a full strength crack with a whip.

Goldenstar Im really gobsmacked by your comment that the instructors whack was a justified correction to the horse ignoring the leg aid, nothing justifies that crack and it doesnt teach the horse to go off the leg either, just puts its adrenaline through the roof and makes it tense more and shut down further than it already was.
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It was correction definatly not punishment her timing was spot on the praising was wierd and the horse was obeying the leg aids at the end .
It's not how I train , my horse are so off the leg the trainer would have been in the next county if she had kicked one of mine like that.
I was just not shocked can't say any more than that.
 
TigerTail said:
No thanks - I rather like the view from up here. To me its still a lack of education as given other choices Id hope people who really had respect for the horse and wanted the best from and for them would choose another option.

I highly doubt any of you would belt your dog with a stick with a full over arm whack if it refused to run with you, so why is it acceptable to hit a horse? IT ISNT.
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You wouldn't hit a dog for refusing to run to you because it makes no sense in training terms, the analogy is flawed.

I genuinely find your opinion to be highly blinkered and limited. I'm currently watching the video of N.O. marydoll posted. Whilst I have great respect for him as a trainer, I don't find his use of the wall to enforce collection palatable to watch (similar to how I feel watching a horse being smacked for not moving off it's leg). There is good and bad in most methods, and sometimes the bad, though unpalatable, is acceptable for those of us who aspire to well trained horses. I don't find hitting (within reason, i.e. using a standard schooling whip) any less acceptable than I find some of the curb use, or use of the sharp turning into walls in the N.O. video, or other methods in other disciplines. Naturally we all draw our lines on acceptable in different places within a spectrum of non-abusive behaviour (in the sense of not causing injury). To dismiss all other opinions as ill educated is rude and, in itself, ill educated, in my opinion.


eta - Pearlsasinger - I agree that there were other factors involved here - and the first rider was abysmal. I did state that originally. I was defending the principle of re-inforcing an aid like this, which appeared to be causing horror to some.
 
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JFTD i dont think he needed the walls to school. More making best use of the space, this is probably a better vid

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF0AaUaQFf0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Im another who has no issue with using a whip appropriately for schooling and reinforcing an aid, but imo it shouldnt be used to beat a horse who doesnt understand the question, or is reluctant/unable to go forward due to poor riding or pain.
 
Ilovefoals said:
But the horse looks so uncomfortable. It looks like it's in pain, not being naughty and the saddle is slipping terribly. Of course, we don't know any history but to me he looks sore :(
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did you see the size of the saddle ? it was like a pea on a drum


i felt sorry for him actually been booted and smacked and shouted at however she did praise him but it looked like slapping rather then pats.

if someone did that to my horse i would of smacked them and kicked them and see how they like it.
 
MD, I don't think N.O. "needs" the walls, no - I think he uses them in the first video to encourage collection (he choses to turn into the walls, not into the space) in a manner I find alarming to watch. You can see the effects it has on the quality of the work though. I've seen much "nicer" videos of him working horses, which I think reflect the level of training of the horse - more established horses don't need to use the walls to encourage collection. It's not a criticism, it's just an observation. I find it unpalatable to watch, but it falls within my spectrum of acceptable behaviours to train a horse. :)
 
JFTD said:
You wouldn't hit a dog for refusing to run to you because it makes no sense in training terms
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Neither does hitting a horse who is physically struggling to go forwards due to physical issues and not understanding due to the riding its used to. Hit your boot to make a noise as stimulus, hit the side of the school for noise, whiz a lead rope around in your hand next to the horse , loads of options that do not include belting it like that.

Havnt watched the other vid you're talking about so cant comment.
 
TigerTail said:
Neither does hitting a horse who is physically struggling to go forwards due to physical issues and not understanding due to the riding its used to. Hit your boot to make a noise as stimulus, hit the side of the school for noise, whiz a lead rope around in your hand next to the horse , loads of options that do not include belting it like that.

Havnt watched the other vid you're talking about so cant comment.
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But we're assuming the physical issues are the cause of the problem. The horse looks unsound - it could be mechanically lame and not in pain at all. The saddle doesn't look good, granted, but it may behave like that regardless. The first rider may appear so appallingly ineffectual because the horse behaves like that.

The other video is largely irrelevant - my point is more generic than that. I fear you choose not to comment because you do not like my assertions.
 
JFTD said:
MD, I don't think N.O. "needs" the walls, no - I think he uses them in the first video to encourage collection (he choses to turn into the walls, not into the space) in a manner I find alarming to watch. You can see the effects it has on the quality of the work though. I've seen much "nicer" videos of him working horses, which I think reflect the level of training of the horse - more established horses don't need to use the walls to encourage collection. It's not a criticism, it's just an observation. I find it unpalatable to watch, but it falls within my spectrum of acceptable behaviours to train a horse. :)
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Agreed
 
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