Classical dressage training????? :-O

They have obviously not realised the horse is lame, and are using these extreme measures because they think it is being obstinate, which is a shame as even an untrained eye like mine can see all that kicking out and resting a leg as soon as they stop is not right... I would hope any trainer/instructor would be able to recognise lameness even if the owner can't immediately. The owner probably just doesn't know what else to do and has gone there for guidance...
 
TigerTail said:
Neither does hitting a horse who is physically struggling to go forwards due to physical issues and not understanding due to the riding its used to. Hit your boot to make a noise as stimulus, hit the side of the school for noise, whiz a lead rope around in your hand next to the horse , loads of options that do not include belting it like that.

Havnt watched the other vid you're talking about so cant comment.
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You see I would never whiz a rope round next to a horse or whack my leg to startle them to me that illogical I don't want to stimulate the horse to noise I want it to go off the leg .
I would never need to hit one of mine like that's to teach to go forwards because they never learn not to most horses ( at least the ones I deal with ) are naturally forwards .
The error there was why was the rider not being helped in a more constructive way at the beginning for me that would have been lunging so she could learn the trainer let her lose heart and give up and get off .
 
Goldenstar, I am on the wine and not being clear. I meant the instructor. Perhaps she was focused on the rider when she was on the ground and any novice rider not getting results may make a horse alter its movement.
However when she got on I would have thought she could feel it.
 
JFTD said:
But we're assuming the physical issues are the cause of the problem. The horse looks unsound - it could be mechanically lame and not in pain at all. The saddle doesn't look good, granted, but it may behave like that regardless. The first rider may appear so appallingly ineffectual because the horse behaves like that.

The other video is largely irrelevant - my point is more generic than that. I fear you choose not to comment because you do not like my assertions.
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I find your suggestion that the first rider appears to be so bad because of the horses behaviour ludicrous. I have yet to find a horse which causes the rider to flap their hands about in that manner, or bring their legs so far back that they are worse than useless, ineffective riding will have no good effect, good riding will help a poorly educated/badly behaved horse, to give a better ride.
 
mandwhy...you say they have obviously not realized the horse was lame, well the trainer is apparently on the British working equitation team, if she cant see or tell shes riding a lame horse then this is even more worrying :-/
 
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YorksG said:
I find your suggestion that the first rider appears to be so bad because of the horses behaviour ludicrous. I have yet to find a horse which causes the rider to flap their hands about in that manner, or bring their legs so far back that they are worse than useless, ineffective riding will have no good effect, good riding will help a poorly educated/badly behaved horse, to give a better ride.
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You've never ridden a horse you just couldn't get a tune out of? A horse you couldn't adapt your style of riding to deal with? A horse so lazy you draw your leg back to try and kick, and lose the independence of seat and hand? I have - not recently, granted, but when I was much more novicey and inexperienced I did. I see it loads watching kids and novice adults at RSs, especially on the more stubborn plods.

eta, and yes, this does mean that they are an unsuitable combination, there's no disputing that.
 
marydoll said:
Agreed
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I am another who finds the use of walls an difficult area I know it's done and have seen it done both well and less well and have had training where we used it it's not something I use without supervision although I do let them run into the wall if they won't stop teaches them not to ignore the half halt quicker than hauling at their mouths to stop.
I use leg yielding with the head to wall quite a bit with some horses , some it upsets so I tend to leave it unless my trainer pushes me to do it.
 
melbiswas said:
Goldenstar, I am on the wine and not being clear. I meant the instructor. Perhaps she was focused on the rider when she was on the ground and any novice rider not getting results may make a horse alter its movement.
However when she got on I would have thought she could feel it.
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Honestly I don't know we don't know the back ground if she knew the horse did not know the horse it's history the first riders history .
I know from experiance having been faced with a group of kids you don't know on ponies committed to being elsewhere its not easy to be the perfect teacher .
 
Golden star , can't quote but ur bit about how ud not whizz a rope round made me think. Mine are desensitised to most things and wouldn't bat an eyelid at a rope being whizzed normally so what makes I diff in this context?
It's my energy and intention - so if we can create energy and intent through other ways than hitting isn't that better?
 
marydoll said:
Im another who has no issue with using a whip appropriately for schooling and reinforcing an aid, but imo it shouldnt be used to beat a horse who doesnt understand the question, or is reluctant/unable to go forward due to poor riding or pain.
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This. I think the horse in the video has NO idea what it's supposed to be doing (first rider massively ineffectual) and is being punished unfairly. It's not being naughty, it just doesn't get it and IMO the use of the whip is excessive in THAT particular scenario. Also v fat and of , at best, questionable soundness.
 
PapaFrita said:
This. I think the horse in the video has NO idea what it's supposed to be doing (first rider massively ineffectual) and is being punished unfairly. It's not being naughty, it just doesn't get it and IMO the use of the whip is excessive in THAT particular scenario. Also v fat and of , at best, questionable soundness.
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I totally agree... apparently the horse is only 5 years old, very sad, seems like an honest little ned as well :-(
 
TigerTail said:
Golden star , can't quote but ur bit about how ud not whizz a rope round made me think. Mine are desensitised to most things and wouldn't bat an eyelid at a rope being whizzed normally so what makes I diff in this context?
It's my energy and intention - so if we can create energy and intent through other ways than hitting isn't that better?
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Not IMO when I amtraining I am working for reaction not fizzing the horse up then controlling it
I have no interest in startling a horse I am trainning into making energy that is encouraging their flight response to get then to go, I have a much calmer more structured approach to training .
However I am working forward going naturally sharp horses I do realise out of my ivory tower not all horses are like this.
 
Goldenstar said:
Not IMO when I amtraining I am working for reaction not fizzing the horse up then controlling it
I have no interest in startling a horse I am trainning into making energy that is encouraging their flight response to get then to go, I have a much calmer more structured approach to training .
However I am working forward going naturally sharp horses I do realise out of my ivory tower not all horses are like this.
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See my new mare was very very dead to the leg, thanks to riders like the original, and it just took something a little different to being hit/kicked to get her to go forwards. You couldve sat there and thrashed her til the cows come home and it wouldnt have made an ounce of diff she just shut her eyes and endured ( i watched the previous owner do this at the vetting :eek:) But me tapping my boot was different, it got forward she got a lovely stroke and the reins given and about a 3 weeks later she went off the leg perfectly.

My other forward going mare you'd never have to do either just think it and it happens, but then she never been subject to hitting and kicking 0= )
 
Poor pony :( I have also seen other videos of 'classical training' and I have NO idea what is trying to be achieved by holding the reins up by the horses ears and lifting up up up and tilting so far forward if it stopped you'd be in the dirt!!!
 
TigerTail said:
See my new mare was very very dead to the leg, thanks to riders like the original, and it just took something a little different to being hit/kicked to get her to go forwards. You couldve sat there and thrashed her til the cows come home and it wouldnt have made an ounce of diff she just shut her eyes and endured ( i watched the previous owner do this at the vetting :eek:) But me tapping my boot was different, it got forward she got a lovely stroke and the reins given and about a 3 weeks later she went off the leg perfectly.

My other forward going mare you'd never have to do either just think it and it happens, but then she never been subject to hitting and kicking 0= )
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FWIW if I had got your mare I would have lunged long reined to establish voice commands I would have know that I needed to put the basics back in place and to me the voice is the basic she would have been lead out and about from another horse to see the sights and have exercised done time.
Then I would have hacked her out with my groom in front we would both stop my groom would then walk on I would stop a fraction longer give the leg aid and hopefully the horse would naturally go to follow its friend in time I would expect the reaction would become better I also use friends in the school for horses who are soured to the school and we play following games with them ,to many horses have been taught to dislike the school .
Until the horse moves forward freely I don't think you can train reaction that's why my first milestone for them is that they will march round our forty minute hack that we do a lot on a loose rien with out me ever giving a leg aid apart from if we stop at a junction or something.
 
Chaptertwo said:
Poor pony :( I have also seen other videos of 'classical training' and I have NO idea what is trying to be achieved by holding the reins up by the horses ears and lifting up up up and tilting so far forward if it stopped you'd be in the dirt!!!
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Neither does the rider having the lesson it's not her fault . We are not born knowing how to ride. I do feel sorry for her she will have been looking forward to her lesson and was probaly excited and was driven to give up.
It's not like any classical trainning I have seen .
 
Goldenstar said:
Neither does the rider having the lesson it's not her fault . We are not born knowing how to ride. I do feel sorry for her she will have been looking forward to her lesson and was probaly excited and was driven to give up.
It's not like any classical trainning I have seen .
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I do feel sorry for her too. She needs to find someone else if she hasn't already!! Poor lady and poor horse as well!!!! Does not look a happy bunny!!
 
Don't see what the issue is - instructor got horse going forward, and used the stick the second the leg wasn't listened to.

Horse looks green and unbalanced, but apart from that not sure I can particularly spot an issue.

Obviously first rider (owner?) can't ride so won't help it's progress ultimately.
 
amymay said:
Don't see what the issue is - instructor got horse going forward, and used the stick the second the leg wasn't listened to.

Horse looks green and unbalanced, but apart from that not sure I can particularly spot an issue.

Obviously first rider (owner?) can't ride so won't help it's progress ultimately.
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Glad its not just me, if mine ignores the leg he gets a smack..
 
Firstly, I wouldn't in any way describe this as "classical" training or riding. It's barely riding at all really, is it. BUT, it's not the awful, dreadful, cruel and abusive treatment it's being described as. It is, unfortunately, pretty common and I have seen worse riding in riding schools and at lower level competitions. The owner/rider is not good, the "trainer" is not good either, the horse is appallingly trained (which is not the horse's fault of course). This is, however, true of a great many situations. It's reality.
 
amymay said:
Don't see what the issue is - instructor got horse going forward, and used the stick the second the leg wasn't listened to.

Horse looks green and unbalanced, but apart from that not sure I can particularly spot an issue.

Obviously first rider (owner?) can't ride so won't help it's progress ultimately.
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^^This.
Really, it might have not been the most stylish, but it was pretty effective way of making a point that leg on means forward, this very second, not when you get round to it.
 
I hope the people involved don't see this thread.

Having said that I will also comment haha.

Horse is too unfit for the work required. He is sweaty at the start of the video and really stuffy and fed up. Not sure he is actually lame, think he is just tired. Rider is so inneffective that he doesn't know if he is coming or going.

It was imperative that the instructor got horse forward and her technique was pretty spot on BUT it was a very hard smack given that the horse was confused & young, I think it was a reprimand for kicking out as much as anything.

I honestly do wonder whether some of you people who claim to have corrected horses which don't move off the leg have actually ridden very much or very many different horses. If you ride a stuffy horse in front of someone like Carl Hester they will not waft lavender oil round the horses head. They are likely to 'Spencer' it, which is basically doing racing type starts with whip, legs, hands and voice until the horse blooming well goes forward when asked.

Faffing around a horse like the one in the video is just encouraging it to get really obdurate and frankly useless. It hard to learn fast that the rider's leg has to be obeyed and that it has to be forward at all times. Before the instructor got on, it hadnt done one step of correct forward trot. It is unfortunate it was being ridden into any kind of a contact, but I would have gotten on and really made the horse go forwards also.
 
I have not read most of the replies. I did not watch the whole video. The original rider seemed to be giving very confused signals, go but stop!

I cannot comment on lameness issues as I don;'t know enough.

I think the poor horse needs a better owner, who can ride.
 
I honestly do wonder whether some of you people who claim to have corrected horses which don't move off the leg have actually ridden very much or very many different horses.
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Must admit I often wonder the same.

There's also a huge expectation that riding is always 'pretty'. It ain't.
 
So because some of us choose methods other than a massive overarm belt we are inexperienced? :rolleyes:

I repeat - just because its a common method, doesnt mean its right or acceptable, if you do it just because others do you're a sheep - it doesn't mean you're a good rider/trainer.

This whole thread has made me really sad, quite a few folks on here are not the owners i thought they were :(
 
TigerTail said:
So because some of us choose methods other than a massive overarm belt we are inexperienced? :rolleyes:
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No, I don't think that's the implication - we're a forum made up of many different experiences. Some clearly with more than others though.

Dealing with a nappy horse is never easy, and we each choose our own methods in dealing with them - and don't forget we have no idea on the history of this horse. The trainer could be being terribly unfair - or the horse could be a pig with a 'belt' well overdue, who knows.
 
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