Classical riding / 'normal' dressage?

[ramsaybailey]

Firstly apologies if my title offends anyone with knowledge in this area i really just dont know how to explain what I mean!

What defines classical riding and what would the main differences be from 'normal' flatwork/dreseage lessons?

Ive just been for a lesson at a venue that focuses on classical riding - and i was told no using my legs with my reins! As in no leg to ask for bend (thats a 'rein aid') no leg for halt no leg for half halt.. It really blew my mind!

 

[teapot]

I'd be interested to know where you went (DM if you prefer), as I know of someone who teaches this no use of legs approach and I've never quite got the reasoning

 

[Skib]

Isnt the clue here that reins can be used or leg, but not necessarily together?
At my very first BHS school I was taught to ride pretty much without reins. I was told to look where I wanted the horse to go and the change in my head position fed thorugh to my seat and steered the horse. I was taught to halt by closing my legs.
I was next taught by a classical RI. At the classical school the reins did come into it by lengthening or shortening the frame of the horse.

 

[ycbm]

As in no leg to ask for bend (thats a 'rein aid')

I hope you misunderstood because asking for a bend with no leg is definitely not a rein aid, classical or not.
.

 

[ramsaybailey]

I hope you misunderstood because asking for a bend with no leg is definitely not a rein aid, classical or not.
.

I wonder if I did too, but those were definitely the words used

 

[SEL]

I hope you misunderstood because asking for a bend with no leg is definitely not a rein aid, classical or not.
.

I've heard that - PK instructor maybe? I was watching not riding but there was a definite hand OR leg instruction to the rider

 

[Ratface]

I have always followed the teachings of the late Lady Sylvia Loch. As a much younger person, trying to ride a determined tank aka a four-year-old Fell Pony, I discovered her books and devoured them. Fell Pony and I "discussed" our way of going via Lady Loch's advice and guidance and eventually found a mutual harmony. Fell Pony and I continued to hunt, show jump, do gymkhana games, a bit of dressage and hack for miles until she was pts due to chronic arthritic changes. She was twenty five.
If you can find any of her books, I hope that you will find them useful.

 

[Caol Ila]

Separation of aids is the cornerstone of classical riding. Not no legs ever.

The idea is that driving the horse with leg aids into a rein aid (as taught in other approaches) is sort of like applying the handbrake and the gas pedal at the same time. It can be very confusing to the horse. Or to some horses. My horses. If you maintain a hold on the mouth, what release/reinforcement does the horse get when it moves off the leg? To overly simplify it, Philippe Karl et. al's approach is that you release the rein aid whilst applying the leg aid, and vice versa, effectively giving the horse somewhere to go when it responds to whatever pressure you are applying. That release can be a fraction of a second, a relaxation of your fingers for two strides.

The half halt is done by asking for more impulsion with the leg whilst opening your fingers, thus releasing the rein, then you squeeze the fingers and contain the energy you created. The point is that you don't do these things at the same time. There is a bawhair of difference in the timing between your application of rein and leg aids. Enough to reward the horse for answering the aid, but not letting the energy you create spew out the front door and thereby creating collection/impulsion, that circle of energy we all want.

Done well and precisely (I am not saying this is me), you can develop a horse who can go in a very elevated frame, in true collection, with the lightest of contact. With every release, you are asking the horse to take responsibility for their own self-carriage. This also applies to vaquero riding, which is not so different (thankfully).

The more common (in Britain and America) methods use the rein contact as more of a solid wall. When you ask for more impulsion from the back end, you have a firm hold on the front end to stop your energy from vomiting out the front. The way I was taught, they talk about having soft (ish) and a following contact, but not actually releasing it when you apply the leg aid.

Hot, energetic horses can develop more energy with the method of holding the front end whilst driving from behind. But the classical approach -- a very conscious separation of aids -- totally changed how my draft cross went. She wasn't a horse who would put more energy into things than she had to, and we battled with the traditional 'German' methods for years, which shut her down and made her dead to the leg. But once I changed to a sort of Philippe Karl thing, she became a different horse.

 

[shortstuff99]

I have always followed the teachings of the late Lady Sylvia Loch. As a much younger person, trying to ride a determined tank aka a four-year-old Fell Pony, I discovered her books and devoured them. Fell Pony and I "discussed" our way of going via Lady Loch's advice and guidance and eventually found a mutual harmony. Fell Pony and I continued to hunt, show jump, do gymkhana games, a bit of dressage and hack for miles until she was pts due to chronic arthritic changes. She was twenty five.
If you can find any of her books, I hope that you will find them useful.

Sylvia Loch is still alive?

 

[TheMule]

Separation of aids is the cornerstone of classical riding. Not no legs ever.

The idea is that driving the horse with leg aids into a rein aid (as taught in other approaches) is sort of like applying the handbrake and the gas pedal at the same time. It can be very confusing to the horse. Or to some horses. My horses. If you maintain a hold on the mouth, what release/reinforcement does the horse get when it moves off the leg? To overly simplify it, Philippe Karl et. al's approach is that you release the rein aid whilst applying the leg aid, and vice versa, effectively giving the horse somewhere to go when it responds to whatever pressure you are applying. That release can be a fraction of a second, a relaxation of your fingers for two strides.

The half halt is done by asking for more impulsion with the leg whilst opening your fingers, thus releasing the rein, then you squeeze the fingers and contain the energy you created. The point is that you don't do these things at the same time. There is a bawhair of difference in the timing between your application of rein and leg aids. Enough to reward the horse for answering the aid, but not letting the energy you create spew out the front door and thereby creating collection/impulsion, that circle of energy we all want.

Done well and precisely (I am not saying this is me), you can develop a horse who can go in a very elevated frame, in true collection, with the lightest of contact. With every release, you are asking the horse to take responsibility for their own self-carriage. This also applies to vaquero riding, which is not so different (thankfully).

The more common (in Britain and America) methods use the rein contact as more of a solid wall. When you ask for more impulsion from the back end, you have a firm hold on the front end to stop your energy from vomiting out the front. The way I was taught, they talk about having soft (ish) and a following contact, but not actually releasing it when you apply the leg aid.

Hot, energetic horses can develop more energy with the method of holding the front end whilst driving from behind. But the classical approach -- a very conscious separation of aids -- totally changed how my draft cross went. She wasn't a horse who would put more energy into things than she had to, and we battled with the traditional 'German' methods for years, which shut her down and made her dead to the leg. But once I changed to a sort of Philippe Karl thing, she became a different horse.

Very well explained

 

[ramsaybailey]

Separation of aids is the cornerstone of classical riding. Not no legs ever.

The idea is that driving the horse with leg aids into a rein aid (as taught in other approaches) is sort of like applying the handbrake and the gas pedal at the same time. It can be very confusing to the horse. Or to some horses. My horses. If you maintain a hold on the mouth, what release/reinforcement does the horse get when it moves off the leg? To overly simplify it, Philippe Karl et. al's approach is that you release the rein aid whilst applying the leg aid, and vice versa, effectively giving the horse somewhere to go when it responds to whatever pressure you are applying. That release can be a fraction of a second, a relaxation of your fingers for two strides.

The half halt is done by asking for more impulsion with the leg whilst opening your fingers, thus releasing the rein, then you squeeze the fingers and contain the energy you created. The point is that you don't do these things at the same time. There is a bawhair of difference in the timing between your application of rein and leg aids. Enough to reward the horse for answering the aid, but not letting the energy you create spew out the front door and thereby creating collection/impulsion, that circle of energy we all want.

Done well and precisely (I am not saying this is me), you can develop a horse who can go in a very elevated frame, in true collection, with the lightest of contact. With every release, you are asking the horse to take responsibility for their own self-carriage. This also applies to vaquero riding, which is not so different (thankfully).

The more common (in Britain and America) methods use the rein contact as more of a solid wall. When you ask for more impulsion from the back end, you have a firm hold on the front end to stop your energy from vomiting out the front. The way I was taught, they talk about having soft (ish) and a following contact, but not actually releasing it when you apply the leg aid.

Hot, energetic horses can develop more energy with the method of holding the front end whilst driving from behind. But the classical approach -- a very conscious separation of aids -- totally changed how my draft cross went. She wasn't a horse who would put more energy into things than she had to, and we battled with the traditional 'German' methods for years, which shut her down and made her dead to the leg. But once I changed to a sort of Philippe Karl thing, she became a different horse.

Amazing explanation thank you!!!

 

[ycbm]

I've heard that - PK instructor maybe? I was watching not riding but there was a definite hand OR leg instruction to the rider

I have heard that method too. What I meant was that you can't create bend with a rein aid. Even if all you want is a neck bend you need a supportive outside leg to stop the body moving over.

This "hand or leg" and also "leg off the side at all times unless you are putting on an aid" was around quite a lot in the 90's and it made no sense to me then, or now.
.

 

[myheartinahoofbeat]

Sylvia Loch is still alive?

I just googled her. She is indeed. Still teaching and doing demos

Sylvia Loch Classical Dressage

 

[ycbm]

I think it's incorrect, even for Philipe Karl, to describe this as never using the leg at the same time as the rein. Because unless you hold your legs away from the sides and have your reins in loops held away from the sides of the horse's neck, you are always giving some sort of leg and rein aid. The real question should be how much and when.

I loved Phillipe Karl's writing until I saw a demo of him and 4 riders.
.

 

[little_critter]

I’d also add that using hand and leg at the same time forces the horse to ‘disobey’ one of those aids. If you are giving a leg aid but also holding the front end in the horse has to decide whether to obey the go (leg) aid or the stop (rein) aid. It’s unfair to put the horse in that no-win situation.

 

[ycbm]

I’d also add that using hand and leg at the same time forces the horse to ‘disobey’ one of those aids. If you are giving a leg aid but also holding the front end in the horse has to decide whether to obey the go (leg) aid or the stop (rein) aid. It’s unfair to put the horse in that no-win situation.

What they are trying to do with the leg is not to say "go" in the sense of forward over more ground but "go" in the sense of increased energy. It should create more impulsion, not a fight.

I'm very much not a fan of "hold the front end and kick the horse up to it" , and when I was riding tended to use a very light contact myself, but there really isn't a conflict in training from using rein and leg together, unless it's done wrong.



ETA I haven't ridden to any high level but I have ridden a lot of horses!
.

 

[ramsaybailey]

Thanks all for commenting its really interesting reading different perspective on this!

The horse was clearly beautiful schooled and felt wonderful when i followed this instruction (hand aid and leg aid separately) but i can't deny it felt completely 'wrong' - so different to how Ive been taught by anyone else! Its interesting experiencing different methods

 

[Palindrome]

There is a saying from Baucher, one of the classical masters : "Jambes sans mains, main sans jambes", which means "legs without hands, hand without legs".
Generally you use leg first and then hand in the half halt, not both at the same time.

But for the question in the title, one of the aims of classical riding is to have the horse transfer the weight on his hindlegs, in order to free up the front end for more maneuverability and in order to be able to do high school movements. The aim of modern dressage is to score the maximum of points on a series of movements. The aim of flatwork will depend upon what you are schooling for, could be to be able to get striding right for jumping and make sharp turns, preparation for showing, dressage, trec, etc...

 

[Orangehorse]

Separation of aids is the cornerstone of classical riding. Not no legs ever.

The idea is that driving the horse with leg aids into a rein aid (as taught in other approaches) is sort of like applying the handbrake and the gas pedal at the same time. It can be very confusing to the horse. Or to some horses. My horses. If you maintain a hold on the mouth, what release/reinforcement does the horse get when it moves off the leg? To overly simplify it, Philippe Karl et. al's approach is that you release the rein aid whilst applying the leg aid, and vice versa, effectively giving the horse somewhere to go when it responds to whatever pressure you are applying. That release can be a fraction of a second, a relaxation of your fingers for two strides.

The half halt is done by asking for more impulsion with the leg whilst opening your fingers, thus releasing the rein, then you squeeze the fingers and contain the energy you created. The point is that you don't do these things at the same time. There is a bawhair of difference in the timing between your application of rein and leg aids. Enough to reward the horse for answering the aid, but not letting the energy you create spew out the front door and thereby creating collection/impulsion, that circle of energy we all want.

Done well and precisely (I am not saying this is me), you can develop a horse who can go in a very elevated frame, in true collection, with the lightest of contact. With every release, you are asking the horse to take responsibility for their own self-carriage. This also applies to vaquero riding, which is not so different (thankfully).

The more common (in Britain and America) methods use the rein contact as more of a solid wall. When you ask for more impulsion from the back end, you have a firm hold on the front end to stop your energy from vomiting out the front. The way I was taught, they talk about having soft (ish) and a following contact, but not actually releasing it when you apply the leg aid.

Hot, energetic horses can develop more energy with the method of holding the front end whilst driving from behind. But the classical approach -- a very conscious separation of aids -- totally changed how my draft cross went. She wasn't a horse who would put more energy into things than she had to, and we battled with the traditional 'German' methods for years, which shut her down and made her dead to the leg. But once I changed to a sort of Philippe Karl thing, she became a different horse.

Very good, clear explanation, thank you.

I probably won't now, but I said that if I ever had another horse we would be following the Philippe Karl thing because it makes so much more sense to the horse. It's also good that you acknowledge that the "wall" method can also suit some horses, I suppose that this is the way a good and experienced trainer/instructor works, in that they don't just apply "their" methods to every horse.

My horse that I rode for the Philippe Karl weekend was rather lazy when schooling but it make so much more sense to him and he had never, ever gone better for that brief time. We felt that we were reading from the same page, rather than schooling being a bit of a battleground "oh well, if you insist ..." it felt like.

 

[Caol Ila]

What they are trying to do with the leg is not to say "go" in the sense of forward over more ground but "go" in the sense of increased energy. It should create more impulsion, not a fight.

I'm very much not a fan of "hold the front end and kick the horse up to it" , and when I was riding tended to use a very light contact myself, but there really isn't a conflict in training from using rein and leg together, unless it's done wrong.



ETA I haven't ridden to any high level but I have ridden a lot of horses!
.

Palindrome said it well. It depends on you/the horse/what you are trying achieve.

Hermosa has to use this all stuff anyway because you can't use the hackamore as a steady barrier. It absolutely has to be ridden on the release or it doesn't work. A horse like her is naturally uphill and on its back end anyway, which makes all that easier. Many of these riding techniques have developed around the Iberian horse.

My old horse was long in the back, wth a heavy forehand, the sort of horse where handholding at the front end looks like something that should work. But we fought with that for years. She was heavy in the hand and dead to the leg, and many a traditional dressage trainer had tried and failed to fix it. it was a lesson with Sylvia Loch (when she lived in Scotland) and then a few lessons with another trainer who'd been taught by her that completely turned everything around.

My Highland requires bits of both. To get clean, round upward transitions and lateral work, you have to separate your aids. But getting him to do a downward transition that doesn't entail splatting on his forehand is a lot of work, at this point. I guess he's been doing them however he likes for more than ten years. I find I have to apply the gas and brake at the same time to make it kind of not suck. If I release too much in front, he falls on the forehand. But if I am not using leg to engage the hindquarters, he falls on his forehand.

I think when explaining all this stuff to novices -- both people and horses -- you have to over simplify it a bit. If you watch someone like Sylvia Loch ride, the separation of her aids is so subtle and imperceptable that it's not obvious. She's not running around with her leg miles away from the horse's side or flinging her contact away every time she applies a leg aid. Not at all! If you are doing the high school stuff that she did on her old Lusitano stallion, you will be signaling with multiple aids, and some will be simultaneous. Those movements and their cues are complicated. However, I can see how a more inexperienced rider who has a bad habit of nagging with the leg, say (and by that, I mean, this was me, lol), might be given that advice. You hopefully won't spend your entire riding career holding your leg away from the horse's side -- and you obviously shouldn't do that forever -- but it can be a helpful interim step to retrain a rider who absentlymindedly nags and a horse who's gotten dead to the leg. Sometimes to retrain the brain and get rid of entrenched bad habits, you have to do something kind of weird as a first step.

ETA: I can totally see how people would wind up riding in quite strange ways if their takeaway from a clinic is "I must keep my leg well away from the horse unless I am asking it for something." You see it with the NH stuff as well. Advice and techniques used for the purpose of progressing a horse/rider from A to B, or solving a problem, get interpreted as the thing you must do all the time. Many clinicians, IME, are rubbish at explaining (and people are rubbish at listening) that, "We are using x to set the horse up for y, but once the horse is doing y, you don't need to drill x anymore unless you have to fix something."

Join-up is a classic example. It's an effective technique for getting the attention of a horse who's completely all over the place and unable to focus on its handler. It's relatively quick (if you know what you're doing) and works. It comes from needing to break in rank mustangs with minimal faff, and is a damn sight more humane than stuff like tying its front foot up and laying it down (some old skool cowboy stuff is pretty dodgy). But once a horse is mentally with you, you don't need to do it. In fact, it's quite stressful and confusing to do it to a horse who's already made that connection with the handler. "I'm already hanging out with you in the round pen. Why are you putting all this pressure on me and chasing me away?" But you get tons of people who go to a NH clinic, and think they need to chase their horse around a round pen every day.

 

[Palindrome]

I think it's incorrect, even for Philipe Karl, to describe this as never using the leg at the same time as the rein. Because unless you hold your legs away from the sides and have your reins in loops held away from the sides of the horse's neck, you are always giving some sort of leg and rein aid. The real question should be how much and when.

I loved Phillipe Karl's writing until I saw a demo of him and 4 riders.
.

There are several interpretations of the leg/hand thing, but when they say "giving an aid" it means applying pressure/asking something, normal contact is not giving an aid.

Another way I have seen it explained is that if you apply hand pressure and leg pressure at the same time, then you'll have to apply more leg pressure to go forward and more hand pressure to stop thus having to work harder than using the leg without the hand or the hand without the leg. The person explaining also said it mattered more for young horses at the beginning of their training who would get easily confused, but wasn't as much important for more advanced horses who would understand using only one leg or more sophisticated signals.

It's a big topic but I think it also goes with "descente de jambe" and "descente de mains" which is the idea that when you stop applying an aid, the horse must remain in the same attitude and with the same impulsion than before, thus there is no need to continue applying it.